Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

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mrsonchus
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Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#1 Post by mrsonchus » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:13 am

Hi all, I've been very busy lately with some Sonchus.arvensis (perennial milk-weed) samples, precessing and finally making them into slides.
I'm trying to make a collection of slides of the 4 Sonchus species found here in the U.K. Many of you will have seen my earlier posts (in fact right from my very first adventures back in 2015...) often featuring Sonchus species, namely S.asper (prickly sow-thistle) and S.oleraceus (smooth sow-thistle). The remaining 2 (until now...) being S.arvensis (perennial milk-weed) and S.palustris (marsh milk-weed).

I say until now as recently I discovered a small number of Sonchus.arvensis growing on the sides of a bay near where I live! Gathering a specimen and placing straight into formol-acetic-alcohol 'fixative' I disappeared into the murky-depths of my tiny 'lab' at home....

Here's an image depicting Sonchus.arvensis from wiki-commons, I didn't think to take an image before beginning to process the tissue!
ws_500W_small_Sonchus_arvensis.jpg
ws_500W_small_Sonchus_arvensis.jpg (45.64 KiB) Viewed 13490 times
While I was dissecting the pieces of leaf and stem for processing I decided it may be interesting to include pieces that were infected with what look like 'fungus' - I know nothing about fungi but this looked as though it may be interesting to include in sectioning for slides - I was right!

This is what the infection looked like in preservative....
ws fungus labelled 1.jpg
ws fungus labelled 1.jpg (85.1 KiB) Viewed 13490 times
and
ws fungus labelled 2.jpg
ws fungus labelled 2.jpg (40.75 KiB) Viewed 13490 times
I took sections of stem infected similarly but didn't take an image!

So, what do the sections look-like stained & mounted permanently?
I'm pretty pleased with the slides, which I also used as 'testers' for staining. I've been practicing and trying to perfect the combination of Alcian-blue and Safranin as a bi-stain, and then the addition of Orange-F to make a tri-stain. This turned out to be easier said than done!

Here are some images of early results, first-up a section taken (TS) across a leaf-node - the point on a stem at which a leaf is attached, and the axil between the leaf and stem which invariably contains an 'axial-branch' which will be a stem or flower etc, but not another leaf. This unit of growth - the leaf-node with axial bud/branch is the way flowering plants develop.

Here's an idea of where the section was made,
Image

A section through this plane shows signs of the fungal attack on both the stem and leaf epidermis,
Image

TS through infected leaf-blade shows fungus breaking through epidermis,
Image

These images are tr-stained with Alcian-blue, Safranin and Orange-G,
The leaf-blade,
Image

Stem cross-section
Image

back soon

This is the edge of an infected leaf, showing the structures of the fungus bursting through the epidrmis of the unfortunate Sonchus, stained with Alcian-blue and Safranin combined bi-stain, 8µ sections.
Image

I also sectioned thinner - at 5µ, and stained with the tri-stain, Alcian-blue + Safranin + Orange-G in an attempt to bring-out more details from the fungal tissue. The idea with the addition of the Orange-G is that the Orange-G will displace selectively some of the Safranin which may have over-stained some structures and reveal a more subtle and detailed staining result. It certainly did seem to work once I managed to get the proportions, concentration and staining-time factors optimised....

This is a 5µ section through fungal structures with the tri-stain applied, again bursting through the lower-epidermis of a leaf,
Image

and a stem,
Image

This fungus I have since identified, with advice from the UK fungus forum's helpful folk, as a 'rust-fungus', one of only two types specific to Sonchus species, the Miyagia.pseuosphaeria. These 'micro-fungi' can have up to 5 different spore-types! I've still to identify exactly which types these are but there are certainly more than one present - and in some later images there appear to be fungal-hyphae infiltrating the cells also, a result of the germination of one of the spore-types....

Closer-in more structure is revealed, aided by the slightly less opaque stain from Orange-G that has displaced some of the rather too dark Safranin of the earlier images,
Image

and
Image

The two-stain does give a lot of detail, as this next image shows, but I still think the tri-stain edges it with this very fine tissue,
Image

The Alcian-blue and Safranin does give a beautifully colourful slide with great contrast,
Image

I like this image, where the fungus is 'up against' the mid-vein of the leaf. The tri-stain here hasn't worked as intended, although I like the result. Here I've over-stained with the Orange-G, which has almost completely removed the Safranin (the order of staining I use is, Alcian-blue, then Safranin then Orange-G)... An adjustment soon put this right however (after about another 10 hours of trial and error :oops: ).
Image

The 'greenish' shades of this tr-stain are the result of interaction between the Orange-G and the Alcian-blue - again this may be altered by varying the staining-strengths of the two stains - so many variations and combinations! This will also change on a per-plant basis also to a larger or smaller extent - staining is indeed a dark-art! :D :D :)

Now, I mentioned above the presence of hyphae.... These result from the germination (upon the Sonchus epidermis) of the spores produced by one of the other stages also present on the plant - this fungus is said to be 'autoaecious' in that it lives it's cimplete life-cycle on the one host plant. Some fungi go through some stages on one host then complete their life-cycle on another, secondary host.

Here's a section of stem where the germinating spore (a 'teliospore' I think) has produced a hypha (the tube) that finds it's way by responding to ridges on the host's epidermis or cuticle until it literally 'find an opening' - this opening will be a stomate-pore or perhaps a wound.... In this section the path of infiltration can be seen. The hypha actually appears to be heading for the vascular-bundle of the plant - probably for the phloem as this is where the sugars or 'foods' produced by the plant are transported from the leaves to the plant'e tissues....
Image

Close-in of the mangled tissue that used to be a stomate and sub-stomatal chamber - full now with fungus I think,
Image

This image I like - it shows clearly how the hypha (stained red) makes it's way through the tissue between cells, the so-called apoplastic pathway rather than through cells - the so-called symplastic pathway...
Image

I think these are hyphae that are within the mesophyll (immediately below the leaf's epidermis) of an infected leaf - the Orange-G has stained the hypha/e while the Safranin has picked-out the nuclei in red....
These images show just how invasive and therefore devastating this rust-fungus (and presumably others) can be!
Image

and,
Image

Here's another entry-point - the stomatal pore is mid-left on the epidermis - the hyphae are quite rampant!
Image

and here the open stomate is visible 'properly',
Image

Spore-producing structures have matured behind a stomate here, but haven't (yet...) ruptured the epidermis to release the 'next stage' spores onto the suffering Sonchus,
Image

Finally for now (until I can take some more images from the still-drying 5µ slides) I think I have some hyphae outside the plant's body, creeping along the epidermis in the first image,
Image

and along the edge of a wounded-edge (maybe result of the fungus' invasion or a wound from something else) that looks like a 'bit has been taken out' of the plant.... The red is the edge, the orange is the hypha,
Image

Anyway, apologies for the long post - I got a little carried away with this interesting fungus! :oops:

I'll post more when I've some more images of interest, hope you find these interesting in the man-time...

John B. :D :D :)
Last edited by mrsonchus on Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#2 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:08 pm

John B.
This is a very interesting demonstration of an invasion process, very educational!
Permit me a side question: What are the visible differences between S. Arvensis and S.Oleraceus? You might have seen the photo of the plant that I identified as S.oleraceus ?

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#3 Post by mrsonchus » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:24 pm

Hy Hobby' - pleased you like the post - still adding to it....

The main differences I would say (macroscopic that is) are the leaf auricles which are rounded and adpressed onto the stem in the S.arvensis and pointed and not adpressed in the S.oleraceus, and the covering of glandular hairs all-over the S.arvensis, not just on the flower-head involucre's phyllaries.
There is also the deeper yellow of the S.arvensis flower-head compared to the pale yellow of the S.oleraceus. Personally I find the morphological differences between the four UK Sonchus species quite fascinating! Oh yes, underground there will also be differences in the root system.

I have on some of my latest (yesterday in fact) 5µ sections of this plant, been able to catch some of these stem-trichomes in longisection - I'll post an image of that too for added information.

More to come. Thanks for your interest.

John B.
Last edited by mrsonchus on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#4 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:13 pm

Hi all, well, I managed to stain a few 5µ slides today and yesterday and have a few nice images. No significant extra detail but a little more especially the stratification of the spore-case (I think) walls and perhaps interior... Interesting to make some 'proper' sections of these micro-fungi - a good project for me I think.

Here are a few images, all of 5µ sections,
Here's a close-in showing what I think are hyaline (see-through) spore-case borders in life, caught and differentiated quite wll by the Orange-G.
Image


The 'finger-like' structure (bottom area of image) curving over the chamber is a 'paraphyis' - one of many such 'fingers' that enclose the spore-chamber of this fungus. This fungus, one of two that attack Sonchus, is the only one that has these, making it's identification (as Miyagia.pseudosphaeria) quite easy.
They can be seen here in an image of the leaf-piece in fixative before sectioning,
Image

Seen here in a slide section, the paraphysis is at the bottom and curving over,
Image

I think this is a fungal hypha making it's way over the Sonchus' epidermis, but I really am uncertain, we need an expert opinion on this I think.
Image

I like this image, if it's what I hope it is - a germinating spore with emergent hypha - which will seek-out a stomate and enter the plant's tissue this way! Again not certain of what this is, but I know very little indeed about fungi I'm afraid.
Image

and,
Image

Finally here are a couple of images showing the tri-stain - which I really quite like. Images of part of the stem TS and part of a leaf TS - both of course of the Sonchus.arvensis of all other images.
Image

and, lateral leaf-veins are visible each side of the midvein, and are cut in longisection as they are going across the leaf rather than down it's length like the midvein....
Image

Well, an interesting time with these fungi, I must have a look for some more I think, they make nice slides! :D :D :)

John B.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#5 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:30 pm

Great project, mrsonchus. Should be of special interest to agriculture-related classes, since rust fungi are a major pest of crops. Although I do not know if this specific fungus that you documented attacks other plant species than S.
Reading this post triggered a question: does this species of Sonchus pour out the white "milk" when a stem is wounded? if so, does it happen when the fungus breaks through the epidermis, not via the stomate? or is thd fungus immune to that milk? I have only very superficial acquaintance with botany, so maybe a naive question.

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#6 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:45 pm

Hi Hobby' - I don't think the fungus ever reaches or indeed breaches the ducts containing the latex. The ducts are not close to the epidermis which is where the 'chamber' containing the non-hyphal stages of the fungus is - between the epidermis and the cortext but not intruding into the cortex. The hyphae take the inter-cellular pathway, also, presumable, avoiding the latex-ducts....

I'm only going-on what I can see in the slides but it seems to make sense. Oh - I've a few images of latex bleeding from a broken Sonchus stem that may show where the latex exudes from, the epidermis is clearly not involved in the image,
ws_sonchus_oleraceus_stem_latex.jpg
ws_sonchus_oleraceus_stem_latex.jpg (36.2 KiB) Viewed 13421 times
It's a really interesting adventure - I'm definitely going to make more fungus slides, both with and without a host even...

Thanks for looking,
John B. :D :D :)
John B

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#7 Post by MikeA » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Hello John,

Excellent series and very informative! I have not seen any 'milkweed' for many years - not sure if it is just my not being in the appropriate location or perhaps just my ignorance.

I am curious about two things - are you using an Orthoplan microscope, and what camera system? Actually three things - milkweed that I remember was a summer thing - we are just coming out of winter, supposedly into spring but it is having to fight to get here. Are you using fresh material or did I miss something?

All the best,
Mike
All the best,
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#8 Post by coominya » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:48 pm

Great project mrsonchus. Are you keeping the slides you prepare as a record, or just the photos?

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#9 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:13 pm

Hi Mike, yes, I'm very lucky. My main 'scope is my 'Big-O' - Orthoplan. In my 'lab' I have a nice stereo-zoom for dissection etc and also a nice (Leitz) SM-LUX fitted for phase-contrast - great for examining unstained-tissue during dissection or straight after de-waxing prior to staining and mounting.
My camera systems are, a Canon EOS 1200D DSLR mounted on the Orthoplan + intermediate optics and tethered (USB) to a Windows-10 tablet running the Canon Utility-2 camera-control software for image capture.
Here's a picture,
ws_orthoplan and canon.jpg
ws_orthoplan and canon.jpg (79.53 KiB) Viewed 13408 times
My 'other' camera system is, mounted atop the (now trinocular) SM-LUX's phototube, a 5mp 'ToupCam' UCMOS camera with intermediate focusable optics, tethered to the same Windows-10 tablet and running the excellent 'ToupView' camera/image capture software - I recently bought the trinocular head for the SM-LUX allowing me to have the ideal camera-mount.
Image

Milkweed - indeed is a summer plant, four species here in the UK, I still have Sonchus.palustris (marsh-sowthistle) to find and add to my slide collection... Maybe this year I'll find some growing here in Cumbria!
I gather my specimens then immediately place them into fixative to stop all biological activity - preserve them that is. This allows me to build-up quite a selection of plant tissue for further processing then sectioning then staining and mounting. The Sonchus.arvensis slides seen here are from a single plant found last year.

So I usually have 'in stock' as it were a selection of tissue pieces in fixative, and also a selection of tissue in wax-blocks ready to be sectioned by 'The Mighty Shandon' - my Shandon 0320 rotary microtome - then making into slides of course...

Here's some tissue in fixative,
ws_tissue in fixative.jpg
ws_tissue in fixative.jpg (63.65 KiB) Viewed 13408 times
Some of my tissue-jars,
Image

Here are some wax-blocks ready to be sectioned,
ws_marchantia_wax_blocks_ready.jpg
ws_marchantia_wax_blocks_ready.jpg (71.14 KiB) Viewed 13408 times
Image

So you see, I'm never far from some tissue all year round! :D :D :D :)

John B.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#10 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:18 pm

coominya wrote:Great project mrsonchus. Are you keeping the slides you prepare as a record, or just the photos?
Hi coominya, yes I keep all my slides - they are all permanently stained, mounted in resinous mountant and will out-live me by many decades! :D :D

I have made many hundreds (a few thousand maybe?) in the three years since I started microscopy - all of my adventures are on this fine forum, right back to 2015.

I love botany and botanical anatomy/morphology - my main interest is in wildflower (some call them weeds!! :o ) here in the U.K. - I find them simply fascinating, and now I make my own slides I'm in a 'Botanical Heaven'!! :D :D :)

In fact I have about 40-50 slides just from these fungal adventures - I always make at least a couple of dozen of each, as with sections of about 5/8/10 µ quite a few are needed to enable me to choose my favourite/intended sections. Also of course I'm constantly experimenting in an attempt to improve my microtechnique (all aspects) and my staining technique/s. The slides soon start to build-up. I throw away any that are poor - I've produced many truly horrific efforts as I've been learning! :oops:
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#11 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:35 pm

mrsonchus wrote:my main interest is in wildflower (some call them weeds!!)
I think that a "weed" is really an invasive species, a plant that migrates (or is transported by man) to far away habitats, where it proliferates so much that it wipes out the local species. Lantana, Comelina and Asparagus plants, for example.

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#12 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:41 pm

My Father-in-Law (a crusty old farmer here in Cumbria) tells me "a rose is a weed if it's growing in a field of cabbages..." :D :D :)

I just love the taxonomic details and differences, and to see them right in front of me in a slide is a sheer delight to me. :D
I never tire of studying the 'from & function' of plants, fascinating.

John B :)
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#13 Post by MikeA » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:03 pm

Hello John B,

Thanks for the complete and informative response - yes, the 'Big O' looks good and works even better! As you may recall, it is my microscope of choice as well.

I am a bit curious about the camera setup - the sensor of that Canon 1200D is the same size as the one in my Nikon D200, so the relay lens needed to eliminate cropping is the Olympus NFK 1.67X, but they are relatively rare as hen's teeth, so I have been using an NFK 2.5X for want of a better choice. How is your system configured?

It must be 'great minds' thinking alike as I have the same new model Touptek 5Mb with their software and must admit to being quite impressed with its performance as well as the suite of tools included.

Brilliant idea re the collection of the plants and preserving them in fixative - we have rather long winters (and cold!) here in NE Ohio, so having the inventory of preserved samples would help pass those cold dark months. I have two rotary microtomes, a newer AO 820 and a Leitz, but would give my eye teeth for a sledge microtome. Have not done much with them but am hoping to develop some ability with thin sectioning and staining over the coming months. I will likely be asking you many questions!

All the best,
Mike
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#14 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:54 am

MikeA wrote:Hello John B,

Thanks for the complete and informative response - yes, the 'Big O' looks good and works even better! As you may recall, it is my microscope of choice as well.

I am a bit curious about the camera setup - the sensor of that Canon 1200D is the same size as the one in my Nikon D200, so the relay lens needed to eliminate cropping is the Olympus NFK 1.67X, but they are relatively rare as hen's teeth, so I have been using an NFK 2.5X for want of a better choice. How is your system configured?
.............
Hi Mike, I think the relay lens is a x0.3 -
there's a x10 projection-eyepiece then the reduction optic (x0.3),
ws_small_leitz phototube full optics.jpg
ws_small_leitz phototube full optics.jpg (29.41 KiB) Viewed 13345 times
and the reduction close-in,
ws_small_leitz reduction optics for adapter.jpg
ws_small_leitz reduction optics for adapter.jpg (26.68 KiB) Viewed 13345 times
John B.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#15 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:05 am

MikeA wrote:Hello John B,

Thanks for the complete and informative response - yes, the 'Big O' looks good and works even better! As you may recall, it is my microscope of choice as well.
..............
Brilliant idea re the collection of the plants and preserving them in fixative - we have rather long winters (and cold!) here in NE Ohio, so having the inventory of preserved samples would help pass those cold dark months. I have two rotary microtomes, a newer AO 820 and a Leitz, but would give my eye teeth for a sledge microtome. Have not done much with them but am hoping to develop some ability with thin sectioning and staining over the coming months. I will likely be asking you many questions!

All the best,
Mike
Hi Mike - great to hear another's going to have a go at sectioning! When you're ready just let me know and I'll give you some advice on getting started. Meanwhile I really have made a lot of posts detailing my adventures right from the beginning including all the trials and tribulations met along the way - and they were legion!

Try -> this post <- of mine for a taster....

Any question at all just ask - I'd be delighted to help in any way.

John B :D :)
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#16 Post by desertrat » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:01 pm

Many years ago a special blade holder was made for the 820 that held the blade at an angle for sectioning celloidin that might work for fresh plant stems. The part number was 825. Good luck finding one, though. If you have metal working tools you might be able to cobble something together. I attached a link in the resources subforum to a Spencer 1917 catalog that shows an image of it.

Another option is the A/O Spencer 880 clinical microtome which was designed for frozen sections. The operating lever draws the blade past the specimen with a sliding motion, which might work for fresh plant stems. I recently scored one of these from Ebay, and with patience you might be able to get one for less than $100. There are a couple of these up right now, though I think they might need some repair. One is missing the bottom crank, but a replacement could be made with a piece of flat stock and come careful work with a square file.
Rick

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A/O 4 Series Microstar
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A/O Cycloptic Stereo
Several old monocular scopes in more or less decrepit but usable condition

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#17 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:09 pm

Thanks desertrat, I section wax-block embedded tissues with my rotary. The fresh tissue I cut into pieces for processing rather than fresh-tissue sectioning.
For thicker wood sectioning etc I have a sledge microtome also. I use disposable-blades in both - they're superb to use.

John B. :)
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#18 Post by desertrat » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:31 pm

Oops, I intended my reply to MikeA, as it seemed he might want to section fresh or preserved plant stems.

That's what I get for assuming...
Rick

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#19 Post by MikeA » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:24 pm

Hello John B,

Oh how you may regret that invitation!

I am thinking of grabbing some samples of some young shoots that are just starting to show above ground, but need to know what fixative I can use and how long can the samples stay in the fixative.

Assuming I will need to use FAA for plant life, but is there any 'wiggle room' insofar as the composition?

I have 37% formaldehyde, methanol, IPA and denatured ethanol (95%) as well as glacial acetic acid.

Thanks for any direction!

All the best,
Mike
All the best,
Mike
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#20 Post by MikeA » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:29 pm

OH! One more thing - where did you find those sample cassettes to hold the samples as they go through the various solutions?

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#21 Post by MikeA » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:37 pm

Hello Rick,

Hmmm... interesting! I will need to do some research on that but it may just do the trick. I am in pretty good shape with metalworking - have both lathe and several mills plus all the ancillary tools. Certainly cobbling together a crank is nothing.

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#22 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:03 pm

Hi Mike, the formula I use is as follows, by volumes,

IPA (95%) 50%
Glacial acetic acid 5%
Formalin (37% formaldehyde) 10%
De-ionised water 35%

This is a very good formula as used by Ruzin, and may be used to keep tissue indefinitely really, without significant hardening. A minimum period in fixative before any further processing, such as dehydration stages, is about 48 hrs.

There is 'wiggle-room' in the amount of glacial a-a - between about 3% and 7% is I believe OK - the higher the content the more the tissue will resist shrivelling due to dehydration - although this has to be empirically determined almost on a tissue-by-tissue basis.... I've always stayed with the 5% and found it good for just about all Botanicals.

The cassettes are std pathology cassettes which are extremely useful as the tissue need only be handled once, and different tissue may share the same container at any stage. I buy them ->from Amazon here <-

They come with either square or rectangular holes - I use square for smaller tissue pieces, rectangular for std sized pieces....

John B.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#23 Post by MikeA » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:05 pm

Hello John,

OK - just finished making up 1/2 liter per that formula and hoping to start collecting some samples soon!

One question - in checking on Ruzin's Acid fixative FAA, I see he specifies EtOH rather than IPA - is there a specific reason for the substitution? I am sure your method has worked and been proven, just curious as I expect the EtOH would provide better dehydration than the IPA.

And thanks for the info on those cassettes - I should have figured Amazon would have them! What don't thay have?

All the best,
Mike
All the best,
Mike
'Nil Satis Nisi Optimum'

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#24 Post by MikeA » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:37 pm

Hello John,

Thought you would find this interesting - looking in an older book 'Plant Microtechniques' by Donald alexander Johansen published in 1940, there is a section on reagents where he comments, "Isopropyl Alcohol.—This alcohol may be substituted for ethyl alcohol, except in killing fluids, with equally satisfactory results. Materials are said not to be hardened so much as by ethyl alcohol."

He also commented the cost of using EtOH can be prohibitive and offered a method to produce one's own EtOH, (with the appropriate government authorizations!)

All the best,
Mike
All the best,
Mike
'Nil Satis Nisi Optimum'

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#25 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:07 pm

Hi Mike, IPA can definitely be used as a direct replacement for EtOH in this context, although historically the advice has been to be careful of over-hardening. With plant tissue I can definitely vouch for IPA (I buy the 95% form 'Shiny Hardware Ltd' and have done since I started) - I've also seen it said/written (Research-Gate for example) that IPA and wax don't mix! One must be mindful of the changes in reagents since some information was compiled - enormous changes have been made in the purity (e.g. IPA) and even formula (e.g. wax) of many of them.

I recently carried-out some trials of using IPA 'right through processing to wax' - that is to say using IPA as a wax-ante-medium (not technically as a clearing agent as the clearing agent's job is to 'clear' the alcohol from the tissue while it also has the effect of rendering the tissue transparent by virtue of it's RI - a secondary interpretation of the name 'clearing' agent...) instead of the usual Xylene-substitute 'Histoclear'.
I saw this idea in the superbly-useful 'Stainsfile' web-pages and thought I'd give it a trial as an aid to mitigating tissue-hardening (by Histoclear during the clearing stages) of some particularly prone tissue such as Sunflower stems. Histoclear definitely hardens more than IPA, and of course IPA is most definitely miscible with wax (not a wax solvent like Histoclear or Xylene) and so is suitable as a wax-ante-medium prior to infiltration - it just works slightly differently to Histoclear and takes about 25% longer in my experience.

My advice, based upon a lot of experience, is to forget all about EtOH and use IPA - it's perfectly fine and fit for purpose.

Hope this helps a bit Mike, John B. :D :)
John B

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#26 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:20 pm

MikeA wrote:Hello John,

OK - just finished making up 1/2 liter per that formula and hoping to start collecting some samples soon!

One question - in checking on Ruzin's Acid fixative FAA, I see he specifies EtOH rather than IPA - is there a specific reason for the substitution? I am sure your method has worked and been proven, just curious as I expect the EtOH would provide better dehydration than the IPA.

And thanks for the info on those cassettes - I should have figured Amazon would have them! What don't thay have?

All the best,
Mike
Hi Mike, small tip - it really is very advantageous to get the tissue straight into the fixative ASAP - I'd say within 5 minutes of removing the tissue/part of the plant. (I always carry a small jar or two of FAA with me! :D )
The best way to approach tissue collection is not to just chop off a chunk - but to take small pieces that are somewhere close to what you will eventually be processing.
For example, to section a stem of a Dandelion, pieces about 5mm maximum length would go into the cassettes - so, when collecting for this intention 'in the wild' cut pieces of (Dandelion) stem of say 1cm, then straight into FAA in a jar - no cassette needed for larger pieces at this stage, then trim them to 'cassette-size' later - with a VERY sharp blade - I use a microtome-blade (disposable) to do this. With sectioning you really do need to think about exactly what you want to produce, what section, orientation etc, right from the moment you collect the live tissue...

John B :)
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#27 Post by MikeA » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:34 pm

Hello John,

Are you sorry you told me to ask questions yet? :shock:

Thanks for the info, and yes, paraffin waxes are all over the board as to which hydrocarbons they consist of - I have a supply of Paraplast that I will be using for my embedding as I understand it does not have many of the problems one can run into with 'normal' wax, (if there is such a thing!'

I assumed you have done your homework re the EtOH v. IPA and that is why I had already gone ahead with making the fixative. I have some 99% (198 Proof?) EtOH but guard it jealously as it cost me an arm and a leg when I bought it. IPA on the other hand is dirt cheap - so using it instead was an easy decision.

I have been fooling around with thin sectioning for years, thus the two rotary microtomes, but never pulling the trigger for one reason or another and now feel as though I am committed, knowing I can come running back to ask you whenever anything goes amiss!

All the best,
Mike
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Mike
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#28 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:44 pm

No trouble at all Mike - always pleased to talk sections!
Feel free to use pm, forum or gmail if you prefer - I don't mind which.

p.s. try starting with a soft-ish stem tissue - perhaps Dandelion or something of a similar size and softness (avoid any woody or shrubby tissue to start) - easy to cut, handle, process and indeed section for starters...

Good luck!
John B.
Last edited by mrsonchus on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#29 Post by coominya » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:49 pm

mrsonchus wrote:
coominya wrote:Great project mrsonchus. Are you keeping the slides you prepare as a record, or just the photos?
Hi coominya, yes I keep all my slides - they are all permanently stained, mounted in resinous mountant and will out-live me by many decades! :D :D

I have made many hundreds (a few thousand maybe?) in the three years since I started microscopy - all of my adventures are on this fine forum, right back to 2015.
I can see the reason in that, nothing beats to eye to object for that sense of "being there"
From reading this post I can see why you are are so fascinated in botany too, it has depths to it I had not been aware of. I got into microscopy simply to observe and catalogue protista but have since gone on to observing larger organism like wasps and mosquito larvae but I will also now dedicate some time to studying botanical samples.

Two questions if I may. What would you suggest as a beginners plant or plant part to study, and what is an optional method to making the thin sections without a microtome?
Thanks,
Tom

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Re: Perennial milk-weed - rust-fungus slides

#30 Post by desertrat » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 pm

John B. knows a lot more about this subject than I do, but here's a link to look at until he gets back to you. I tried some freehand sectioning many years ago with limited success. With lots of practice one can get a few good ones suitable for making permanent slides. They will be much thicker than paraffin embedded microtome sections, but the good ones will be thin enough to transmit light and get good views of structure.

The method shown is the same as I've seen in old microscopy books, except a barber's straight razor was used then. Section razors were sold long ago that looked like a barber's razor but had one side flat instead of both sides hollow ground as with the barber's razor. I bought an old section razor on Ebay several years ago, but it turned out to be in poor condition and I haven't tried to use it.

I understand freehand sectioning was used much more frequently in botany a century ago than it is today.

http://www.ableweb.org/volumes/vol-19/0 ... -YEUNG.HTM
Rick

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