reflected light silicon chip die

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jb89
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:09 am
Location: Denver, Co

reflected light silicon chip die

#1 Post by jb89 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:47 am

Hey guys,

I picked up 250 of these for $12 shipped, if you have reflected light capabilities and want one just let me know, I have some envelopes and stamps im trying to get rid of anyway

if you need a couple for you and some friends just let me know and I'll put a couple in for you

Edit: these are free, not asking for anything in return although if you are overseas I may need to ask for shipping (maybe I can give 50 or so to someone in the EU who can distribute them easier there)
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Last edited by jb89 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

jfiresto
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:19 am
Location: Northern Germany

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#2 Post by jfiresto » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:23 am

If you would like to distribute a few as a standard target and compare microscopes, I would be happy to put one under a Wild M3 and an M7S, take some pictures and add them to a thread.
-John

jb89
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:09 am
Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#3 Post by jb89 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:31 am

jfiresto wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:23 am
If you would like to distribute a few as a standard target and compare microscopes, I would be happy to put one under a Wild M3 and an M7S, take some pictures and add them to a thread.
I think that's a great idea!

MichaelG.
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Location: NorthWest England

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#4 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 am

jb89 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:31 am
jfiresto wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:23 am
If you would like to distribute a few as a standard target and compare microscopes, I would be happy to put one under a Wild M3 and an M7S, take some pictures and add them to a thread.
I think that's a great idea!
Agreed ... A super test-piece for distribution [250 near identical items]

I’m in England, and would happily take as many as you can fit in a cheap-to-post package.
... Will keep a couple for myself and distribute others via the Postal Microscopical Society.
... They can be stow-aways in the boxes that go on-circuit.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

viktor j nilsson
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Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#5 Post by viktor j nilsson » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 am
jb89 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:31 am
jfiresto wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:23 am
If you would like to distribute a few as a standard target and compare microscopes, I would be happy to put one under a Wild M3 and an M7S, take some pictures and add them to a thread.
I think that's a great idea!
Agreed ... A super test-piece for distribution [250 near identical items]

I’m in England, and would happily take as many as you can fit in a cheap-to-post package.
... Will keep a couple for myself and distribute others via the Postal Microscopical Society.
... They can be stow-aways in the boxes that go on-circuit.

MichaelG.
I already have some really nice vintage 6" silicon wafers, but if you do end up sending some of these to Europe, I would be happy to have one to use as a Microbehunter reference object!

WhyMe
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:04 pm
Location: Eastern USA

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#6 Post by WhyMe » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:58 pm

Wow, this is very generous of you! I would love one.

jb89
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:09 am
Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#7 Post by jb89 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:58 am

So these things are insanely small and it might not have been obvious from the first picture.
20200211_142812.jpg
20200211_142812.jpg (149.08 KiB) Viewed 9303 times
I think I will include at least two or three with each envelope just in case you misplace or drop one before you can mount it to a slide or something.

Does anyone have any good ideas for keeping them secure and scratch free in the envelopes? I was thinking of taping them to a piece of paper or something along those lines but I'll take any input I can get

WhyMe wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:58 pm
Wow, this is very generous of you! I would love one.
No problem, just send me your address and if you're in the US I'll get some sent out! Otherwise it looks like a few other members will be handling overseas distribution and hopefully they will be posting details when we confirm everything!

Bryan
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:31 pm

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#8 Post by Bryan » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:37 am

I have some chips similar in size that I mounted to slides without a cover glass. I find it difficult to photograph them because of the clear coating. Jb89, do you have any techniques you can share?

jb89
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:09 am
Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#9 Post by jb89 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:27 am

Bryan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:37 am
I have some chips similar in size that I mounted to slides without a cover glass. I find it difficult to photograph them because of the clear coating. Jb89, do you have any techniques you can share?
Could you post some of your pictures?

This is one I just took with my phone held to the eyepiece on my Zeiss Universal, the zeiss is actually out of alignment after swapping the optovar and pulling the stage controls; when I get them aligned and get my camera hooked up correctly I should be able to get better shots.
chip.png
chip.png (492.16 KiB) Viewed 9290 times

jfiresto
Posts: 133
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Location: Northern Germany

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#10 Post by jfiresto » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:19 pm

jb89 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:58 am
So these things are insanely small and it might not have been obvious from the first picture....
Indeed, I estimate the lithographed area is roughly 1 mm to a side. That probably makes them better targets for compound microscopes. A die would only reach roughly half the field diameter of my stereo units at their maximum magnification. I can disqualify myself from the distribution if you run short of dice.

You know, if someone were to accurately measure one of them, you would also have about 250 stage micrometers.
-John

Bryan
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:31 pm

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#11 Post by Bryan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:59 pm

jb89 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:27 am
Bryan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:37 am
I have some chips similar in size that I mounted to slides without a cover glass. I find it difficult to photograph them because of the clear coating. Jb89, do you have any techniques you can share?
Could you post some of your pictures?

This is one I just took with my phone held to the eyepiece on my Zeiss Universal, the zeiss is actually out of alignment after swapping the optovar and pulling the stage controls; when I get them aligned and get my camera hooked up correctly I should be able to get better shots. chip.png
I don’t think I even saved any they were so bad. I know there is a way to remove the coating but it involves some harsh chemicals and dangerous acid that I’m not interested in playing with. It may have been my lighting that caused reflections in the coating making the photos look bad. I’ll have to experiment a bit more to see what I can do.

jb89
Posts: 101
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Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#12 Post by jb89 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:26 pm

I'm taking some of these to the post office today, if you'd like some just let me know!


WhyMe, Tom Jones, jfiresto and MichaelG. I am taking your packets to the post office now and I will edit this when they have been successfully sent out!

Edit: they have all been dropped off

If anyone else wants any there are still over 150 to go!

charlie g
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:54 pm

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#13 Post by charlie g » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:07 am

Hi jb89, your relected-light 'round robin' group activity would be an excellent forum thread!

My basic questions so far are: 1) what magnification objective are you depicting in this posts first image? 2) what is the working distance between objective and the target substraight? 3) May we see a pic of the stand with template chip on it's stage..and the objective? In the opinion of yourself and forum folk...what resolution range can you optimally expect from a reflected light microscope setup such as you share images with us?

Thanks for this posting, jb89, charlie guevara, fingerlakes/ NY

jb89
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:09 am
Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#14 Post by jb89 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:05 am

charlie g wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:07 am
Hi jb89, your relected-light 'round robin' group activity would be an excellent forum thread!

My basic questions so far are: 1) what magnification objective are you depicting in this posts first image? 2) what is the working distance between objective and the target substraight? 3) May we see a pic of the stand with template chip on it's stage..and the objective? In the opinion of yourself and forum folk...what resolution range can you optimally expect from a reflected light microscope setup such as you share images with us?

Thanks for this posting, jb89, charlie guevara, fingerlakes/ NY
The first image is actually not mine, it's from the eBay sellers listing.

Here's one I took quickly just now at 50x total magnification using a Zeiss Epiplan HD 4x, I think I have 2mm of working distance with this objective.
mc50x.png
mc50x.png (490 KiB) Viewed 9188 times
I have the chip just sitting on top of a slide right here, I don't know what kind of resolution you can expect but I can go all the way up to my Epiplan HD 40x and continue seeing more detail on the chips
mc on stage.png
mc on stage.png (259.43 KiB) Viewed 9188 times

MichaelG.
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Location: NorthWest England

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#15 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 am

jb89 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:58 am
So these things are insanely small and it might not have been obvious from the first picture. 20200211_142812.jpg
I think I will include at least two or three with each envelope just in case you misplace or drop one before you can mount it to a slide or something.

Does anyone have any good ideas for keeping them secure and scratch free in the envelopes? I was thinking of taping them to a piece of paper or something along those lines but I'll take any input I can get
I must confess that I mis-interpreted the picture in your first post, showing them laid in the tray :oops:
I had guessed them to each be ten or twenty millimetres square !!

Scotch ‘Magic Tape’ or similar might serve to package them without leaving much residue ... but it’s tempting to think that you could probably secrete them under the postage stamp [in memory of WWII agents]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7tY ... &q&f=false

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

jb89
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:09 am
Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#16 Post by jb89 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:27 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 am

Scotch ‘Magic Tape’ or similar might serve to package them without leaving much residue ... but it’s tempting to think that you could probably secrete them under the postage stamp [in memory of WWII agents]
I ended up taping them down to a strip of paper and then wrapping them in bubble wrap, hopefully it works out, if not I have a lot more I can send out

WhyMe
Posts: 147
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Location: Eastern USA

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#17 Post by WhyMe » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:55 am

Got mine today. Thank you! It looks great under my scope!

jb89
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Location: Denver, Co

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#18 Post by jb89 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:11 am

WhyMe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:55 am
Got mine today. Thank you! It looks great under my scope!
Awesome, glad to hear it!

MichaelG.
Posts: 2071
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Location: NorthWest England

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#19 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:18 pm

.
Arrived safely in the UK ...
Many thanks for taking the trouble to share them, Josh

Will need to temporarily re-assemble my incident light ‘scope before I can post any photos :oops:

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

MichaelG.
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Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#20 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:10 pm

The Lomo M [epi] has been temporarily reassembled to try this

Unfortunately I have discovered that only two of the four objectives appear to be complete :shock:
... Two of them [including this one] have no toroidal glass insert in the illuminating path, just the metal reflector
The result is lousy illumination, generating lots of flare

This image is from the F=6.3 / NA 0.65 objective using the supplied phototube assembly on the trinocular
[ designed for a 35mm film camera, but now adapted to micro 4/3 ]

I am deeply disappointed [albeit unsurprised] by the softness of the image; but the underlying resolution seems good.
Please excuse the dust on the sensor !!
Please excuse the dust on the sensor !!
P1250860_s.jpg (86.52 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
Note: original 4000x3000 reduced here to 800x600

Thanks again to Josh for distributing these chips.

MichaelG
Too many 'projects'

PeteM
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Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#21 Post by PeteM » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:09 pm

I bought a few of these to use in kids' programs right after JB89 called this to our attention (thanks!) - last one a small group of screened kids as our County was about to get its first CoViD-19 cases.

A semi-satisfactory mounting was to cut white cardstock (glossy white, about like a postcard) into "slides" 1" x 3". Used a toothpick to apply a tiny amount of glue to the center of each. A tiny suction cup meant for lens work (end about 2mm diameter) was used to lift the silicon chips up and on to the dot of glue. Often ended cockeyed, but could be flipped with a clean toothpick and secured. Then flattened with a bit of plastic film over them to keep oozing glue from sticking. Weight above and a few hours curing time to have them more or less closely adhered to the cardstock.

That way each kid could have their own - report back to their parents and friends they had a computer to see. Probably better ways, but this worked OK.
Last edited by PeteM on Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wes
Posts: 532
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:58 pm

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#22 Post by Wes » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:10 pm

Anyone in the EU willing to send one of these chips my way? I want to make images using my newly assembled epi-DIC setup and then return the favor by sending them to another enthusiast.

PeteM
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Location: N. California

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#23 Post by PeteM » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:14 pm

FWIW, Wes, I believe the original Ebay seller is/was in France, the prices very low, and likely able to ship to you.

PeteM
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Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#24 Post by PeteM » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:21 pm

Here's the US Ebay link, Wes. Seller "aberco" is in France. I bought mine back on Feb. 1st.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/aberco/m.html? ... pg=&_from=

MicroBob
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Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#25 Post by MicroBob » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:55 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:10 pm
I am deeply disappointed [albeit unsurprised] by the softness of the image
Hi Michael,
I don't know your microscope but with epi setups there are often special tube length part of the clculation. May be you have the wrong mix of components?
Also with used epi objectives I have had much more trouble with the condition of the front lenses: Sometimes they were pitted or protuding edges were abraded by multiple impacts ot the coatings were heaviy damaged by acid vapours or whatever.

What contrast technique did you use?

Bob

MichaelG.
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Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#26 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:18 pm

Thanks for the thoughts, Bob

The microscope [or what remains of it] has quite a basic illuminator and co-axial rings around each objective.
The lighting is therefore, by design, almost ‘flat’ ... but not quite axial. [i.e. the standard metallurgical style]

I have tested the objectives using a lashed-up transilluminator, and they all perform quite well.

The problem on this particular objective seems, quite simply, to be that the toroidal glass element is ‘Lost, Stolen, or Strayed’ and therefore the epi-condenser is not performing !

The softness is, I am sure, caused by ‘flare’

MichaelG.
.
.
P.S. __ It’s similar to the one being restored here:
http://www.mikroskopfreunde-nordhessen. ... en/Noa.pdf
... but with a different set of faults.

P.P.S. __ My understanding [hopefully correct] is that the LOMO epi-condenser rings are catadioptric
... similar in principle to what Olympus describes here:
https://www.olympus-lifescience.com/en/ ... ldreflect/
Too many 'projects'

MicroBob
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Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#27 Post by MicroBob » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:48 am

Hi Michael,
epi brightfield usually gives a very hazy image. In the Olympus brochure you linked there is an opaque stop mentioned to block direct brightfield light through the objective and acheive true epi dark field. This stop might be missing in your setup. Also a directed light source, not a diffuse one, might improve the image. Is there something to focus the light source in your setup?
What also helps a lot is crossed polarizers. In my limited experience epi dark field and brightfield with x-pol gave the best results.
A potential error source are the ring mirrors of epi darkfield objectives: Zeiss Jena had them as part of the objective holder, interchangeable and adjustable. Zeiss West had the objectives as one factory made component with ring mirror. The last setup avoids mismatches and misadjustments for the casual user.

Bob

MichaelG.
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Location: NorthWest England

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#28 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:42 am

Thanks again, Bob

Let me summarise what little I know about the epi light path in this microscope:

There are three components to the ‘lamphouse’
1. a basic 100W Tungsten Halogen bulb in an adjustable holder
2. a large, focusable, condenser element [note the ‘gear-change gate’ for epi or trans]
3. a large iris diaphragm

These are followed by a [currently empty] filter-holder with three drop-in locations
... and finally a much smaller [fixed position] lens assembly

There is then a slot in the body of the instrument; which takes a semi-reflecting prism unit [on a slider] to direct the ‘tube of light’ down to the objective assembly.

All of these items should be visible in the German document that I linked.

I have four objectives, all of which have nose-caps that are mirror polished inside:
Two have toroidal glass elements within them, and two do not
Two work as expected, and two do not [the image is, as you see, swamped by flare]

I feel sure that there is a simple cause & effect relationship there ^^^ but I can find no technical description of the design.

I took the obvious step of writing to our new Russian friend; but my message has not yet been read, so I am copying it here as a general plea:
LOMO M objectives
Edit Delete Report Quote
Sent: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:35 pm
From: MichaelG.
Recipient: Dmi3n

Grateful if you could advise [anything!] about the 190mm tube-length objectives for the LOMO M
As you will see from my recent post on 'reflected light silicon chip die' ... I have two objectives which appear to be missing their toroidal glass.

F=6.3 / NA=0.65 ... 84127
F=10 / NA=0.40 ... 84045

Many thanks
MichaelG.
The microscope needs some work, but has the potential to be very useful

N.B. __ I may be completely wrong about the objectives; but the evidence so far indicates that two of them are missing a significant element of the epi-condenser.

Any and all information/advice would be most welcome.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

MicroBob
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:11 am
Location: Northern Germany

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#29 Post by MicroBob » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:52 am

Hi Michael,
here is the link to the right manual in I'm right: http://www.mikroskopfreunde-nordhessen. ... Lomo-M.pdf
There is an image of the box of accessories, front left are some kind of stops, I guess that there will be one with a dot in the middle. On page 7 the epi darkfield setup is described.

Bob

MichaelG.
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Location: NorthWest England

Re: reflected light silicon chip die

#30 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:34 am

MicroBob wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:52 am
Hi Michael,
here is the link to the right manual in I'm right: http://www.mikroskopfreunde-nordhessen. ... Lomo-M.pdf
There is an image of the box of accessories, front left are some kind of stops, I guess that there will be one with a dot in the middle. On page 7 the epi darkfield setup is described.

Bob
Thanks yet again, Bob

I already have that manual, but did not link it because:
(a) it describes a different [more sophisticated] version of the instrument
(b) I have not yet translated it
(c) I have none of those accessories :(

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

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