Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

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Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#61 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:08 pm

Hi folks again:

Several issues for talk about.

First, I have the raw files of the pics, so, with time I will upload all the coloured images of them; they are mainly monochromatic grey images, but in some cases, there are some artifacts in small tiny points; If you change the position of the slit or the prism position you obtain different mono-colours as in DIC.

Yes Apochronaut, sorry, I´m not native English, and not very fluent with it (I never pass the different English subjects in my studies 😉) ; so, when I write, I can be wrong with things; I didn’t take attention about the denomination of slit Pluta system: Interference contrast microscopy was confused by me with Differential Interference Contrast; Zeiss Plas DIC is similar in concept (Could be that I´m wrong in this, and it would be good to know, as I will discuss later) despite that the polarizer filter in PZO /Pluta system is below the specimen, and in Zeiss is over the specimen; Could be that all this different systems have slight different names due to patent rights?

I haven´t got the Pluta´s books from which is taken the diagram that I included posts ago, neither the manual of operation for PZO ICM (Interference Contrast Microscopy; lets use this acronym despite DIC) or slit condenser; If somebody has got, please share with us.

At this point, from Pluta information I can´t deduce the slit width in his proposal; So I try to deduce it by the next ways: a) the Zeiss paper of PlasDic (here, the relevant issue of the similarity of PZO ICM and PlasDIC, are they similar?) it´s say that must be close of 0.25 p.u. of the distance between the interference fringe distance in a conoscopyc view, b) Studying the PZO slit condenser, it´s clear that the slit must be adjustable between tenths of mm (lets say 0,3mm to few millimetres), c) Test & error taking as start point the a & b clues.

In a conoscopyc view when I get the ¿ICM?, ¿slit DIC?, ¿other thing without name until now?, I see the diagonal (45º ) black interference fringe, that is about ¼ to 1/6 of the slit width, the slit width is about 1/3 to ¼ of the distance between the black interference fringe, and the first coloured fringe; so, without the slit mask, you see the nice pattern of the central dark fringe and one or two coloured at each side, and with the slit mask, you only see the dark one. At this point, we must return to the Plata illustration, in c) is draw a conoscopyc view with several fringes!!!, is it possible to get it with a slit mask? for me no! with a wider slit that I use, you will see in a conoscopic view the original prism pattern, and no effect in orthoscopyc view.
With a smallest slit, using 0,5 mm slit with the 40X objective 0,65NA despite the 4mm slit, I can isolate the central part of the central dark fringe, with a dark, without fringes conoscopyc view, and a dark orthoscopyc view… and that doesn´t match neither with the picture of a condenser slit in Figure 5 in Zeiss paper, neither with the ability of PZO condenser to get slits below 0.3-0.2 mm, neither with the extremal loss of light that is involved in that extreme thin slits… so I deduce that the proper adjust of the slit is that, that I´ve described first, than match with the Zeiss paper, and so the conoscopyc view in C) of the Pluta´s diagram must be without slit…

Said that, I have test that if you adjust the dark fringe in the centre of the slit in the conoscopyc view, you have a low contrast orthoscopyc image; you need to bias the dark fringe to one of the sides of the slit; more bias, more contrast, and more density gradient; the density gradient depends too on the width of the slit. So, there is a lateral component of the illumination. In Zeiss paper you can see too an arrange with lateral asymmetry in figure 3.

What have I got? ICM Pluta illumination technique?, nothing related with it but a more expensive oblique illumination?... I think that ICM, but with my limited experience and knowledge, and no more documents about it availed, I´m not sure.

Has ICM Pluta illumination any lateral gradient? I don´t know too. Could be that the prisms used for ICM b PZO and Plas DIC by Zeiss have the shear angle and other desing oriented to reduce the gradient?. The PZO upper unit for ICM is complex, and must permit to change the position of the prism in various ways.

Sure Squisalot, yes, the last image isn´t with the slit in the condenser, it is with a PZO condenser prism in my homemade condenser; it is was only the results of the first fast test that I have done with that configuration, and it seems like slightly mismatched DIC as Scarodactyl says. It needs time, because as I have read, you can adjust the match of the prisms in several ways, one of them moving the prism over or under the back focal plane of the condenser, that´s the reason for how it´s made my condenser: I can adjust the vertical position of the condenser mask or support of the prism.

Scarodactyl, for the oblique pics I used the sliding mask that I have posted, I can adjust “on line” the cardboard sandwiched between the two aluminium frames; I´m happy with the results, cheap and fast way to create different mask (I have to tried with coloured ones) and easy adjustment. The idea from Saul for access in two orthogonal axis I have to try.

There is the remaining question about If I try to adjust the Z position of the condenser for get a focus image of the slide and the field iris, the upper lens of the condenser touches the slide with the aplanat and achromat SK optics. I don´t know if I´m wrong in the diagnosis about this issue; I think that the reason is that the field lens focal points and distances between field iris, field lens, and condenser in the Optiphot line is different than in the SK line, and the Abbe SK condenser tolerates these differences but the SK aplan and achro not; Can Apochronaut or somebody confirm this?.
Zzffnn speaks about oiling the condenser; I did so with the yesterday attempt with the broken CF 100X 1,25, but not with the below NA objectives, could be that the reason for the need of touch of the upper part of the aplanat and achromat condenser with the slide with the CF 40X 0.65?, I think that no, but… relevant, because I would like to use the aplanat or achromat SK optics, but in this point I have to use the Abbe one.

Thank all

Jose Antonio
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 3:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#62 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:33 pm

Color; "real DIC," two prisms not well matched
Attachments
cf 40X + PZO 20X prism DIC C.jpg
cf 40X + PZO 20X prism DIC C.jpg (133.85 KiB) Viewed 12417 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Location: Santander

Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#63 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:42 pm

color Pluta ICM
Attachments
CF 40X DIC Abbe C.jpg
CF 40X DIC Abbe C.jpg (97.43 KiB) Viewed 12416 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Location: Santander

Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#64 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:48 pm

Colour oblique with the mask previously show
Attachments
CF 40X oblicua Abbe C.jpg
CF 40X oblicua Abbe C.jpg (137.6 KiB) Viewed 12416 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#65 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:53 pm

Colour slit Pluta ICM
Attachments
CF 20X DIC Abbe C.jpg
CF 20X DIC Abbe C.jpg (101.02 KiB) Viewed 12416 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#66 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:00 pm

Oblique mask previously showed; color
Attachments
CF 20X oblicua Abbe C.jpg
CF 20X oblicua Abbe C.jpg (124.95 KiB) Viewed 12416 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Location: Santander

Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#67 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:06 pm

slit Pluta ICM; Coloured
Attachments
cf40X slit epi dic achro C.jpg
cf40X slit epi dic achro C.jpg (90.22 KiB) Viewed 12416 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#68 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:09 pm

Pluta ICM ; Coloured
Attachments
cf40X slit epi dic achro II C.jpg
cf40X slit epi dic achro II C.jpg (81.33 KiB) Viewed 12415 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#69 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:14 pm

Pluta ICM 20X; colour
Attachments
cf20X slit epidic achro C.jpg
cf20X slit epidic achro C.jpg (78.96 KiB) Viewed 12415 times
Last edited by Jose Antonio Mena on Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#70 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:17 pm

Pluta ICM 10X; Color
Attachments
cf10X slit epidic achro C.jpg
cf10X slit epidic achro C.jpg (70.39 KiB) Viewed 12414 times

Sure Squintsalot
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#71 Post by Sure Squintsalot » Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:51 pm

Hola Jose....do you have a sample DIC microscopy image with that condenser side 20x DIC prism AND 20x objective with its DIC prism engaged? I'm considering a condenser modification like yours for my Optiphot, but I'd like to see if its' better than my Sanderson plate. I suspect it is, but it would be nice to see, and be certain.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Location: Santander

Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#72 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:04 pm

Hi Sure Squinsalot.: Until now I have only test with the cf40X 160mm 0,65NA nikon objective, and BD 40 epi prism, with the 20X PZO condenser prism.
I hope next weekend I can try with the cf 20X
What are you using in the nosepiece place?, what kind of prisma?
I use the BD epi DIC optipht Nikon nosepiece. If yours isn´the same, my results couldn´t match with yours...

Best regards

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#73 Post by viktor j nilsson » Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:22 pm

Sorry I haven't read everything in detail. But have you thought about the position of the interference fringe relative to the back focal plane of your objectives? I've measured the location of the BFPs of some of the objectives for which your prisms were made. The data is here:
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 45#p285745

I haven't played with slit condenser DIC, so I'm not entirely sure, but I'm thinking that the gradient your seeing could be caused by a mismatch in the interference fringe position. Your slit will be protected at the back focal plane, and I assume that's where the interference fringe needs to be.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Location: Santander

Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#74 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:24 pm

Hi Viktor:

Thanks for your links and share your nice information. I have seen any of your works in DIC too.

I have read some of them, not all; some needs time for study.

Some of them are related to the requirements to obtain a match between condenser prism, condenser optics, objective and objective prism; there are some literture about it, most of them in your links, but few and insuficient for a complete understand of the concrete desing of DIC systems, at least for me.

I like to test, built and try, and the two last years I spend some time looking for, reading, and tinking about DIC desing.

One thing that I found in different DIC systems from brands was the use of one adjustable prism in the nosepiece.

And somebody wrote that you can displace from the focal plane of the objective the interference point of the prism is you change in the same way the position of the interference point of the condenser prism related to the BFP of the condenser.

I learn that PZO have a over objective prism system very adaptable, that must consist in a moveable prism, or set of prisms; I woul like the manual of one of those MPI systems.

The 3 above things oriented me to think in any kind of upper objective adjustable support of a prism... or a down the condenser adjustable system.

As I see that other illumination tecniques involve to acces in easy way to the back focal plane (or front, attending the propagation of ligth) of the condenser system, I decided to build this condenser, based in a SK condenser optics... As I wrote, with Abbe optics, I get enougth good optical match with the optiphot field optics, but with the Achro and Aplanat, not very good over 40X use.

In paralel with this I saw the epi-dic nosepiece: as the objective is the condenser too in the epi use, you have a optical symetry: the prism must work well despite some displacement of its interference point related the back focal plane of the objective/epi-condenser (At least I guess so...). I saw that these are "cheap", and I thougt the posibility of try to match the objectives (CF 160mm / differents that M or BD 210mm objectives) and the epi prisms with a adjustable prism condenser by a process of try and error.

A paper/ patent that were shared here weeks ago, confirmed me that possibility.( DIFFERENTIAL INTERFERENCE OPTICAL
SYSTEM Inventor: Kenichi Kusaka, Sagamihara-shi (JP))

Other different thing is the proposal of slit condenser from M. Pluta used by PZO in his ICM system; I saw it one year ago and I thougt that could be another way to try.
I have few information about it, only the diagram that I´ve attached, and pics of the PZO slit condenser... But I found too the paper from Zeiss about its PlasDIC, and I thougt (I don´t know if it´s true or false, and I ask here again about it) that the priciple could be the same.

If PZO ICM and Zeiss PlasDIC share the working principle, I deduce from the paper than you have some freedom with the position between the back focal plane of the objective and the position of the interference point of the objective prism; that the relevant thing is to adjust the slit width with the paper criteria.

So, I assume two things that I don´t know if they are true: the equivalence between the Zeiss PlasDIC and PZO ICM, and the flexibility in PlasDIC about the relative position between the prism and the BFP of the objective.

If I am wrong, it can explain two things: the density gradient that I have in my views with the slit condenser and epi-dic nosepiece, and the conoscopyc view that I obtain (a slit of ligth with the dark line of the prism interfence) despite the drawing that is shown in c) of the M. Pluta ICM diagram.

I am lookin for somebody with good knowledge that can clarify me all these issues.

Looking too somebody than can share information about the Pluta ICM system, and instructions about the PZO system.

Hope that you can aid with this

Thanks

Jose Antonio

apochronaut
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#75 Post by apochronaut » Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:06 pm

I'm pretty sure that Zeiss used Pluta's work as a springboard at least. Since there were no active patents,, it was pretty up for plundering.
I have the manual that you seek but have found little time to scan it. I will do my best in the coming couple of months. It is over 100 pages, some being colour plates.
In the interim, if there are any specific questions you have, I can at least look them up.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#76 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:32 pm

Thanks very much Apochronut:

Despite the final result of my work I would like to understand why and how work something, and your informaion will aid me a lot. I´m sure that in that manual you have is a lot of information to compare with the results that I get.

Thinking this last day in the words from Viktor, now I have a idea for two test and ways to check what could be failing if something is failing.

As I have a set of BD-DIC objectives, that have to match with the prisms placed in the BD nosepiece, I can use them for a transmited light ICM with the slit condenser, and see the results; I will have to work up to 20X with coverglass, or over 40X without coverglass, and for avoid efects of spherical aberration, I can use the epi-illuminator only as spacer.

And as I have the optiphot-1 trasmited DIC nosepiece, I can use it with the slit condenser; then I will have too a match between the BFP of the objectives and the position of the interference point of the objective prism; I will can compare the conoscopyc and orthoscopyc images obtained, with the images that I have obtained until now .

Best regards

JA

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#77 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:48 pm

Hi again:

I have made more test.

I have combined the BD plan epi-objectives with the BD EPI-DIC nosepiece turret, the EPI-Illuminator as spacer (And analyzer) and the slit condenser in a diascopic work; the goal was to have the slit scheme with a objective and objective prism that where made by Nikon to match (objective BFP and prism position well adjusted as Viktor claims).

The results were similar than the ones that I had obtained with the CF Plan dia-objectves, in the orthoscopic and conscopic view ( with the 40X I had worst results due to the use or a coverglass with the 40X 0/210 objective...).

I can´t use the slit condenser with the diascopic optiphot DIC nosepiece: the nosepiece adjustable prism doesn´t give me any interference fringe (neither black or coloured) between crossed polarizers... so, until now, no way to do the test with this objective DIC prism.

The results of the Nikon Optiphot diascopic DIC and the slit ICM with the BD epi-dic prisms combinated with the CF Plan objective side by side, show better results in contrast and details with the Nikon DIC, but not too different.

The results between the slit ICM and oblicue iluminatios is slighty better with the ICM in pictures, but better in visual apretation.

With this test, until I will have the PZO manual from Apochronaut or another input, I understand that what I get with the slit in the condenser that I have made and the EPI-DIC nosepiece is the Plutta ICM, and at least with the combination of the BD prism and the CF plan objectves, there isn´t any impact of mismatching.

The first improvement I see, is to build a slide that can change easily and online the size of the slit.

The another one, is try to work with the achromat optics; I am using 1,2mm thick glass slides, and I want to try 0,8mm glass slides in order to see If I can focus the field diaphagm in the same plane of the sample without the mechanical interference between the upper part of the achromatic condenser and the sample slide.


Best regards and have nice new year days.

Jose Antonio

osterport
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#78 Post by osterport » Thu Jan 04, 2024 7:50 am

Jose Antonio Mena wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:04 pm
The filter for the variable obicue contrast (gradient contrast)
Image
Just a question: is the filter inserted into the slot at objective side?
Attachments
nikon_gradient_contrast.jpg
nikon_gradient_contrast.jpg (42.8 KiB) Viewed 9268 times

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#79 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Thu Jan 04, 2024 10:52 am

Hi Osteoport:

The second picture that you have posted is the arrange for Pluta Interference Contrast Microscopy; inside the slot there is an analyzer oriented east-west (45º from the prism interference fringe position). Is must be combined with a slit in the FFP of the condenser oriented in the same direction of the prism interference fringe.

The upper picture you have posted was my first attempt to built a gradient filter for get Variable Oblique Contrast illumination system as it´s described in an Olympus paper that I attached posts ago. It must be placed in the FFP of the condenser, in the tray that I have built in my condenser.

It´s no well done; the gradient filter must match with the N.A. of the objective. I have mesured the next diameters of the field of the condenser tray for filters:

Nikon SK Abbe Condenser NA 1.3 not oiled:

Nikon CF plan 4X NA 0,1 ----> 2,5 mm diameter
Nikon CF plan 10X NA 0,25 ----> 7mm diameter
Nikon CF plan 20X NA 0,4 -----> 10mm diameter
Nikon CF plan 40X NA 0,65 ------> 15 mm diameter.

The one that is pictured will work with the condenser oiled and a objective NA of 1.3; in that case you reach the 30mm diameter field of view in the condenser tray.

So, for get the better gradient filter for Variable Oblique Contrast, you have to built a filter for each NA, with the density gradient distributed in the 1/3 (or so) central part of the field. I built them with adding layers of ND plastic sheet staggered; probably must be a better way to built them.

Regards

Jose Antonio

osterport
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#80 Post by osterport » Thu Jan 04, 2024 11:29 am

Thanks Jose for the reply! It's placed in condenser side, it's a bit different than what Olympus describe on their homepage:
Image

But it looks it works well in condenser side, that'd be easier to try.

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#81 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:07 pm

Yes, I think, as the front focal plane of the condenser and the back focal plane of the objective are conjugates, you can change them...

osterport
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#82 Post by osterport » Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:01 pm

Jose Antonio Mena wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:07 pm
Yes, I think, as the front focal plane of the condenser and the back focal plane of the objective are conjugates, you can change them...
I'll try both, condenser is easier though.

are all your oblique pictures made by the variable obicue contrast (gradient contrast)?

Jose Antonio Mena
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Re: Working in an "universal condenser" for Nikon Optiphot

#83 Post by Jose Antonio Mena » Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:20 pm

Hi Osteoport:

Until now I was working mainly in Pluta ICM, testing different configurations.

When I tried the variable contrast that I made, I see that I have to adjust its desing to the NA of the objective (and the condenser optical desing too); so, I toke the measures that I wrote earlier for get a proper desing, but until now, no more test.

The oblique illumination test that I´ve posted are made with the slide with the moom shape that you can see in post 52.

I have quite work front me (test the PZO DIC prism in the condenser; look for use achromat optics in the condenser despite Abbe; check Rheinberg; desing a variable slit slide; try 100X oil objective with ICM; and this one issue...), but due to personal dutties I work in this slow...

When I have progress in this direction I will return here.

Best regards

JA

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