Mystery Dark Objects

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Vale!
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Mystery Dark Objects

#1 Post by Vale! » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:24 pm

I've been tearing my hair (singular) out for the past few days trying to identify something. I'm wondering if anyone here has seen them before or otherwise can help.

I have a reputation for being long-winded but I'll do my best to be brief ...

I inhabit a fishkeeping forum. Someone complained on the forum that the surfaces of plant leaves and wood in his aquarium were becoming covered with a black coating. He posted photos. The photo of the coating on wood looked like cyanobacteria, but it was the wrong colour. I wondered if it could be filamentous Diatoms, which I'd never seen before, so I asked if he'd send me some to look at. He did - samples of both leaves and wood-scrapings.

The samples were packed without excess water and spent three long and cold days in the postal system. When they arrived I transferred them to a dish each, added water containing macronutrients (NPK) and parked them between the top of an aquarium and its lights to recover. I'll refer to the coating on leaves as the 'leaf sample' ; and the coating on wood as the 'wood sample'.

Crushed between a pair of slides, the 'wood' sample was noticeable darker than the 'leaf' sample. After a while, the 'wood' sample in its dish began producing many gas bubbles, while the 'leaf' sample produced very few.

Day2BubblesSmaller.jpg
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I eventually managed to collect sufficient of the gas such that it 'popped' when a flame was introduced to it - a pretty meek explosion but definitely there and accompanied by a fleeting blueish flash. I assume the gas to be hydrogen.

Under a microscope (I have a Celestron Pentaview) both samples consisted mainly of a matt of squirming cyanobacteria together with Diatoms of multiple types. The major difference between the two, in context, was the proliferation of these objects in the wood sample (they are absent from the leaf sample) :

(x400 magnification)
(x400 magnification)
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They have a thick wall, and I fancy there's a mucous coat on the outside. They're all the same - I couldn't find any that looked different in terms of the number of 'cells', or were smaller or bigger. They appear to be non-motile and there's no movement discernible inside them. At first I thought that the prominences at either end were tubes, but now I think they're not. It seems unlikely that they photosynthesise, given the dark aspect and thick walls. They didn't appear to be perturbed when I added a few grains of salt to a sample in a well-slide.

My current 'theory' is that they could be heterocycsts because of the supposed hydrogen (or even akinetes) but I've not seen any that are obviously part of a cyano filament, and I haven't found anything near a match in Google images. Something to do with the wood, then? Or something completely independent of both cyano and wood?

I don't know - I'm at a complete loss!

Does anyone have any ideas as to how I might progress to an ID, or even seen these things before?

Greg Howald
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:44 am

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#2 Post by Greg Howald » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:47 pm

My first thought here is to wonder if the gas being produced is methane. I'm very interested in what you may have going on here. You may be observing two processes occuring simultaneously. A bacterial infestation can produce either hydrogen or methane with methane being more likely. The organism you see may be feeding on the bacteria or an associated fungus. Most of those things which may be present have not been fully identified by science and most information available addresses general terms and affects rather than having a great deal of specificity.
This does seem worthy of investigation. I'll look around a bit to see if I can find anything more specific.
Greg

Vale!
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#3 Post by Vale! » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:35 pm

Thank you for your interest, Greg.

I can now reveal that I posted a Youtube vid a few days ago which may or may not add anything useful. Here's the link. I've attempted to have it start at the best place (5m30s) but if that hasn't worked, then at least you now have the point to scroll to!

Plasmid
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:34 am
Location: North GA
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Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#4 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:03 am

Some saprophytic fungi can produce CH4 (methane) the black structure you're seeing seems to be ascus with ascospores inside, try getting an oblique or darkfield view of the fungi or just max out the light control and open the field aperture and youll be able to see the ascospores. If you want to test oit the fungi theory add abit of chitosan amd the chitin cell wall should dissolve.

Heres an interesting read
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2049

Chris Dee
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#5 Post by Chris Dee » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:33 am

To me it looks like a chlamydospore sack, common to some species of fungal mycelia.

Vale!
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#6 Post by Vale! » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:58 pm

Many thanks, Plasmid &Chris.

I now have some chitosan (in capsules, from a health food store) and will play with it later. I have hundreds of litres of already-acidified water, so I should be able to get it into solution, if that's what's required? Presumably, now the fungus (if that's what it is) is divorced from the wood that may have been its source of nutrition, it may be dying back - so I'd better get my skates on!

I will follow up on the 'chlamydospore sac' angle and report back if I find any sort of match.

I'm unsure if my microscope will be up to 'darkfield' adventures, but will try fooling around with it some more.

I love these detective-type exercises ; one learns so much in a short time.

Challenger007
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:37 am

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#7 Post by Challenger007 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:23 pm

Is it something like moss or algae? I saw a similar one in small swamps. Only there the bottom is more often covered with such a green bloom, and speckles of air are also visible.

Vale!
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#8 Post by Vale! » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:58 pm

Greetings, Challenger

Welll, much of the matts in which these objects are present is composed of cyanobacteria (a creeping, slimy mess of filaments) and colonial Diatoms. It would look green(ish) were neither Diatoms nor (in the case of the 'wood' sample) those dark objects associated with it.

Bubbles of gas (unlikely to be 'air' I would have thought) do form under a dense matt of cyano, so perhaps you were looking at some in your swamp?

Vale!
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:08 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Mystery Dark Objects

#9 Post by Vale! » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:19 am

Just a quick report for now ...

I subjected a 'wood' sample to increasing amounts of chitosan during yesterday afternoon/evening, but didn't see any change to the mystery object that I had (somehow) managed to keep centred in the field of view.

Finally, before retiring, I dumped a little of the raw powder onto the sample, applied a cover-slip and left it overnight.

This morning I can't find any mystery objects. Mind you, the whole sample had become so disrupted that it was difficult to see what had been going on. I shall try again later today. If I can, I'll try to isolate one or a few of the objects to make things easier. Somewhere I should have some pipettes from which I haven't already cut the 'capillary' tips ; they may help.

More news as I get it ...

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