Microtome blades question

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Verde001
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Microtome blades question

#1 Post by Verde001 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:14 pm

Hi everyone!!

I have a Microm HM335E with a few reusable blades types C & D. I was wondering if you guys have recommendations regarding the sharpening of the blades (any particular company, how often it should be made). I generally take samples from plastic parts, so I'm not sure how many of you can related with that.

I own a "blade holder" (I'm not sure how to call it), but I guess is too old because the blades that I found are way smaller compared to what I need. The only ones that "work" are some paint scrapers, but they are not strong enough sometimes and to be honest I don't want to rely on something that it is not meant to be for this purpose. I guess one option could be to create one support from scratch and machine it, but I'm new on this world so I would like to hear opinions from more experience guys.

Before you ask: Microm does not exist anymore, they were bought by ThermoFisher Scientific and I have called them a couple of times for support without any good results... :cry:

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Re: Microtome blades question

#2 Post by mrsonchus » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:49 pm

Verde001 wrote:Hi everyone!!

I have a Microm HM335E with a few reusable blades types C & D. I was wondering if you guys have recommendations regarding the sharpening of the blades (any particular company, how often it should be made). I generally take samples from plastic parts, so I'm not sure how many of you can related with that.

I own a "blade holder" (I'm not sure how to call it), but I guess is too old because the blades that I found are way smaller compared to what I need. The only ones that "work" are some paint scrapers, but they are not strong enough sometimes and to be honest I don't want to rely on something that it is not meant to be for this purpose. I guess one option could be to create one support from scratch and machine it, but I'm new on this world so I would like to hear opinions from more experience guys.

Before you ask: Microm does not exist anymore, they were bought by ThermoFisher Scientific and I have called them a couple of times for support without any good results... :cry:
Hi verde' - I own and use a similar rotary Shandon 0325 microtome - are you able to post pictures of your microtome's 'blade holder' as it sounds as though you may simply have a 'high-profile' blade holder and have attempted to put 'low-profile' blades into it. If this is indeed the case then this is very easy to correct - simply buy and use the 'high-profile' blades with it. They're simply a 'deeper in the body' blade to the 'low-profile' blades. A picture of the blades (not the re-usable) and the carrier will enable me to see exactly what you need to do old chap. :)
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Re: Microtome blades question

#3 Post by Verde001 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:23 pm

Hi mrsonchus,

Hopefully the pictures will give you a better idea of what I have.
Attachments
Blade on top of the holder
Blade on top of the holder
knife.JPG (64.85 KiB) Viewed 15318 times
Blade holder
Blade holder
Capture.JPG (160.88 KiB) Viewed 15318 times

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Re: Microtome blades question

#4 Post by mrsonchus » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:13 pm

Haha! I think you're in luck old chap - that looks like an adapter to hold high-profile blades to me. There's no reason that a high profile blade shouldn't be used in exactly the same way as a low-profile blade, just the holder has a bigger cut-out into which the slightly 'higher' blade fits. Whatever else you do - hold onto that adapter - they are very expensive to buy!
As mentioned I use low-profile blades as my Shandon 0325 has a dedicated low-profile holder, whereas you're using an adapter - which is just as good.
Here's a snip of details of them from the 'EMS' supplier's web-pages - I use both the 'Feather' blades and the 'Accu-Edge' blades, they're virtually the same functionally and physically are exactly the same dimensions...
LP_vs_HP_blades.JPG
LP_vs_HP_blades.JPG (92.58 KiB) Viewed 15311 times
You of course will need the 'high-profile' type I think - but you need to carefully read the details and dimensions above and measure them against your existing blade/s and your holder/adapter - the cutting-edge of the mounted blade sits 1mm proud of the holder's 'jaws'.

Brunel-Microscopes (from whom I buy 95% of my supplies and equipment) offer about the cheapest and best value holders and blades that I know of, here's a link to their relevant page that may help..http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/micr ... ories.html

I hope this helps, just ask if you need to know more. :)
John B

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Re: Microtome blades question

#5 Post by Verde001 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:20 pm

Hi again!

First of all, thank you for your help, I have learn a couple of new stuffs just by your answer which makes is very valuable for me.

Sadly the height of my holder is close to 16.5mm. Based on this, I guess there are a couple of options:

1.- Find a blade of that height (So far I have not found one, but I will keep looking)
2.- Buy a new knife holder (Expensive option)
3.- Machine the current holder 13 mm (Like the picture), in that way the cutting edge of a 14mm knife will " sit 1mm proud of the holder's 'jaws' "

What do you think about these options?

By the way, according to the webpage of Thermo Fisher Scientific the knife of the previous picture I attached (Shandon HP35) is high profile:
https://www.thermofisher.com/order/cata ... ct/3150734
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machine.JPG
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Re: Microtome blades question

#6 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:34 pm

Ah - I see. This is easily fixed though.
Simply cut a strip of metal off of a blade (not the piece with the cutting-blade - throw that bit away of course) such that when another (new) blade is placed on top of it in the holder's recess the high-profile blades you have will sit perfectly and protrude 1mm as they must.
Another (wider) strip cut from the bottom of another blade could be used when you wish to use low-profile blades (as you never know which type will be 'next-up' online at a great price) effectively you'll have an adapter that will take either low or high profile blades depending on which strip you place into the holder below it.... I piece of thin tape would probably hold the strip in place although that probably won't be necessary.
What do you think? I'm sure you don't need to machine the holder you have at all.... :)
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Re: Microtome blades question

#7 Post by Verde001 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:40 pm

Hi again!

I didn't think about it! I will give it a shot and see if it gives me enough stability and let you know :)

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Re: Microtome blades question

#8 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:41 pm

Worth a try Verde', something like this perhaps?

I'm sure this will behave as a one-piece blade...
blade-adapter.jpg
blade-adapter.jpg (42.48 KiB) Viewed 15268 times
Have a go and let us know - try a prototype from paper or cardboard or plastic etc.... You may not need it to be metal even...
:)
Last edited by mrsonchus on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microtome blades question

#9 Post by ChrisR » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:50 am

I'm interested in getting a replaceable-blade holder made.
Does anyone know of/have a picture of one with a blade fixed in place, so I can get an idea of angles/how far the blade should protrude?
Thanks

Chris

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Re: Microtome blades question

#10 Post by apatientspider » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:36 am

If anyone is interested, there is an American Optical/Spencer razor blade holder for microtomes on Ebay that has been kicking around for at least six months. At twenty bucks plus shipping it seems reasonably priced and seems to be in decent shape.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181257898809?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

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Re: Microtome blades question

#11 Post by ChrisR » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:10 am

Thanks - that's a strange one.

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Re: Microtome blades question

#12 Post by apatientspider » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:21 am

ChrisR wrote:Thanks - that's a strange one.

According to the 1929 Spencer catalog it is intended for holding - what to many of you would be - old-fashioned safety razor blades. The double edged ones, I believe.

Jim

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Re: Microtome blades question

#13 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:28 pm

Hi all, that holder looks good to me. Personally if I lived in the US I'd snap that up for the price! That will certainly hold razor-blades - the design is just right for that. But I can see no reason it can't be used for all-manner of blades, from the replaceable blades that I use in the 'Mighty Shandon' to a similarly-shaped but far heavier 'all-purpose' blade such as those sold for scrapers etc...
It looks like a simple clamp - but the screw orientation suggests it's the 'proper' mechanism for blade clamping, that is a lever-action (fulcrum maybe) rather that a 'press down harder' clamp. One side rises as the screw is 'tightened' so the edge along the blade presses ever more securely onto it.
Honestly - I'm tempted to buy it here in the UK, it looks good for use in a rocking-microtome too - depends upon the thickness of course, but it's worth a try in my book - the price is so low.
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Re: Microtome blades question

#14 Post by ChrisR » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:31 pm

I took the punt. It's gone to a friendly postman in the US to cost less postage. If it's junk he can return it. It's bit odd - this one is probably the same and has better pictures: there's a wedge in the middle.... 272273141502

I'll share when it arrives, though that could be some time.
I'm concerned that the knob might get in the way - hard to tell.

I saw some "skin graft knives" recently which were longer and possibly thinner than a razor blade. Might be good - once you manage to get their proper purpose out of your mind! :o
Presumably you can keep moving the blade along to a new bit of edge..

I can still get safety razor blades in my local pharmacist. I wonder if they'd be rather delicate.
John - how much sitcks up above the edge of the clamp, with yours?

Again - thanks Jim.

--Chris

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Re: Microtome blades question

#15 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:48 pm

Hello Chris, the amount of 'overhang' as far as I know is 1mm (about - it's not critical as long as the blade's cutting-edge is firm and can't flex under pressure of cutting I think).
Less would probably give a clearance problem but I'd imagine anything greater, within reason of course, depending upon the stiffness of the blade used, would be fine.

Here's a posting I made some time ago when struggling with this problem for my 'rocking' microtome.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1109&p=7685&hilit=s ... lade#p7685

I tried several options, most of which worked in principle. The use of an 'ordinary' razor-blade gave me superb sections and confirmed that my problems were connected with blade-condition. I then had an unbelievable turn of luck and found an unused, brand-spanking Shandon 0325 rotary microtome for a ridiculously low price, and here in the UK too!
The rest as they say is history - my need to finish an adapter disappeared with the arrival of the 'Mighty Shandon' and unfinished it remains!

If the adapter takes a razor-blade I suspect you will soon be dancing around the room with glee! As long as the holder isn't too thick for the microtome's knife-holder' you're in business as they say.

This is how simple my first attempt was - yes - that's sticky-tape holding the blade onto a used and useless knife - and the sections were silky-smooth....
ws_razorblade_test-(11).jpg
ws_razorblade_test-(11).jpg (35.5 KiB) Viewed 15192 times
Have a look at my thread if you get a chance - I think I put up video too.
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Re: Microtome blades question

#16 Post by ChrisR » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:37 pm

Does that work as well as a "proper" blade in a proper holder?

Yes I've been through your posts at least twice!
I have a rocker (in a box) and a "1512". No space to use them properly - one day I hope.
There's also the small matter of learning some biology.
I was admiring a Topping slide of a blowfly head , sectioned exactly along the axes of the optic nerves. "Easy to do, after the first 30 years with unlimited blowflies", I was told.

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Re: Microtome blades question

#17 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:09 pm

ChrisR wrote:Does that work as well as a "proper" blade in a proper holder?

Yes I've been through your posts at least twice!
I have a rocker (in a box) and a "1512". No space to use them properly - one day I hope.
There's also the small matter of learning some biology.
I was admiring a Topping slide of a blowfly head , sectioned exactly along the axes of the optic nerves. "Easy to do, after the first 30 years with unlimited blowflies", I was told.
Well, I've very limited experience of it's use (as the Shandon arrived shortly afterwards), although what little use I made of the 'prototype' as in the posts certainly gave me results equal to if not better than the rocker's own brand-new knife. My answer then would be yes - but as far as a comparison with the rotary I don't know - I was learning from scratch at that time.
Personally - if you've a rotary and it's complete I really can't see the rocker getting anywhere near to it. That's not to say rockers aren't very good - they are - but in my experience with the Shandon, once mastered they are simply superb in use and results. I am able to routinely section anywhere between say 25µ and 1µ with it as required.

It undeniably (the rotary) has a big advantage when considering consistency (other factors being also). If you have a rotary, I'd concentrate on that - they're superb when properly used.

The Biology isn't a problem - neither is the processing really - it's a lot more straightforward than you may think. A dedicated room is a must I would say - and I'm lucky enough to have such an ex-dining-room as my now 'lab - my Wife is a very kind lady indeed.

p.s. I can't really see the sectioning of the fly's head to be particularly problematic. As long as it has a good support-matrix, e.g. wax or plastic infiltration & embedding, it should behave similarly to somewhat brittle plant tissue (such as hard-'shelled' pollen grains maybe) I would think. If the soft tissue is to be removed (dissolved) then you're essentially sectioning a shell - which should be easier to infiltrate perhaps than the shell & soft tissue?

Anyway I ramble.
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Re: Microtome blades question

#18 Post by apatientspider » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:45 am

ChrisR wrote:I took the punt. It's gone to a friendly postman in the US to cost less postage. If it's junk he can return it. It's bit odd - this one is probably the same and has better pictures: there's a wedge in the middle.... 272273141502

I'll share when it arrives, though that could be some time.
I'm concerned that the knob might get in the way - hard to tell.

I saw some "skin graft knives" recently which were longer and possibly thinner than a razor blade. Might be good - once you manage to get their proper purpose out of your mind! :o
Presumably you can keep moving the blade along to a new bit of edge..

I can still get safety razor blades in my local pharmacist. I wonder if they'd be rather delicate.
John - how much sitcks up above the edge of the clamp, with yours?

Again - thanks Jim.

--Chris
Oh, you're quite welcome, Chris; I'm glad to see it found a home. Apparently the seller didn't have a clue as to what the thing actually was for - not even after I emailed and enlightened him some while back. :) He never acknowledged the tip or changed anything in his listing.

I checked out the other holder you mentioned. Hard to believe the price they want for it! There isn't that much to one. In fact, they aren't even as complicated as a woodworker's spokeshave or bootmaker's sole trimmer.

Jim

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Re: Microtome blades question

#19 Post by ChrisR » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:40 pm

woodworker's spokeshave or bootmaker's sole trimmer
That had occurred to me. I have the odd dozen or so of those, though mostly wooden.
Some of the old type laminated plane blades are brilliant steel for sharpening.

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Re: Microtome blades question

#20 Post by Yvan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:28 am

.
Last edited by Yvan on Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Microtome blades question

#21 Post by ChrisR » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:18 am

Thank you.

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Re: Microtome blades question

#22 Post by ChrisR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:59 pm

I said it would be a while ;)

The blade holder made it across the pond.
I'm optimistic that I can use it, though I'm not able to try it yet on the Cambridge Rocker or the 1512 Rotary, as they're stored elsewhere.
The whole length is about 120mm x 6mm at the root except where the gripper is, there it's 16mm.
The blade holding part is 36mm long, with the maximum blade holding depth 23mm. It would hold quite a thick blade, probably a couple of mm.
I'm not sure how it would deal with a blade with a thick rear edge. It could probably be packed with a piece of blade to hold near the edge.

If it's for old-style razor blades, how far thould they protrude, I wonder?

The two pips on the back, circled, may need to be removed? Presumably they were for locating, on the intended Spencer.


Any thoughts??
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Re: Microtome blades question

#23 Post by mrsonchus » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:13 am

Hi, hmm - looks good to me. It looks the type designed to hold the 'old-fashioned' 2-sided razorblades. I experimented with them as a replaceable blade a while back for my rocking 'tome - they do cut beautifully smooth sections, and this holder looks able to optimise the process by holding the blade securely. Once the blade's in the grip of this adaptor the whole assembly is able to be used as if it were a std steel knife, and as such should certainly fit the 1512 and very likely the rocker - although there's a possibility that it may be too thick for the rocker's blade-clamps....

Here's a link to my experiment with the razorblades that seem to go into your adaptor - I used sticky-tape to stick them to a used and no-longer sharp steel knife, with surprisingly good results!

The overhang is about 1mm-1.5mm as it is on the disposable-blade holder of my Mighty Shandon rotary. The 'pips'.. - I'd just ignore them if they don't get in the way, and they don't really look like they will.

Good luck, let us know how you get on!

John B. :)
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Re: Microtome blades question

#24 Post by ChrisR » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:20 pm

Thanks.
I fear the blade holder may be too tall, when it has its edge uppermost. I have a couple of random knives, which are only three quarters of an inch or so - similar dimensions to a cut-throat.

And would using old-style razor blades restrict the material? If so I could look out for thicker blades which might fit, like the snap-off variety of utility knife blades. I don't know if they'd be sharp enough.

I'll need a project of something particularly interesting to get me trying to make slides. Most things have already been done far better than I'm ever likely to!

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Re: Microtome blades question

#25 Post by mrsonchus » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:28 pm

ChrisR wrote:.................. Most things have already been done far better than I'm ever likely to!
Chris! That's true for us all my friend - the idea isn't to achieve perfection - believe me I've made some truly hideous slides - I love the learning and experimentation. Just select a 'theme' for your microscopy - I started by following the work of the late great Walter Dioni - his slide-making at home was the inspiration that started me off nearly three years ago now.

I look over slides online and always see many that are far, far superior to mine, but that's inevitable with just about any amateur pursuit I think. Don't sell yourself short my friend - pick a goal, say of mounting something that doesn't require sectioning, for example onion epidermis - and use perhaps an aqueous or alcohol-based mountant - both far easier than the full-process resinous mounts. Get-thee to Mr Dioni - you'll never look back!

Good luck my friend. let us know how you get on.

John B. :D :)
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Re: Microtome blades question

#26 Post by ChrisR » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:17 am

My holder is similar to this: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2232008.pdf , for ordinary safety razor blades.

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Re: Microtome blades question

#27 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:22 am

That looks like it - the 2-sided razorblades will make a nice smooth section - I tried it a while ago myself.
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Re: Microtome blades question

#28 Post by ChrisR » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:42 am

It's too big for the Cambridge rocker, having had a quick look.
Has anyone used replaceable blades with one of those? They need to be no more than an inch or so tall, by the look of it.

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