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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:46 pm 
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I started off with a junior Zenith MBU-4 in the early seventies and then after a break of 35 years bought a Zeiss Standard 18 but was horrified to discover that it would not focus with my old Lomo DIN 33 objectives that I had kept. After much research it seemed logical to get hold of the much more versatile Zeiss Jena NF stand which I present here. It is a lot more cumbersome to work with than the Zeiss West microscope, but accepts DIN 33 as well as Din 45 objectives and is capable of standard phase as well as variable. I managed over time to acquire the correct phase (DIN 33)and variable phase (DIN 45) kits, as well as apochromatic (DIN 33) objectives which despite their age (1960s) are remarkably good. My latest addition is a Polarisation Analyser Lambda which sits beneath the trinocular head.

Image20171112_125712 by Fortesmentum, on Flickr

Image20171112_125824_001 by Fortesmentum, on Flickr

Polarisation analyser and a full set of apochromatic objectives

Image20171112_125813 by Fortesmentum, on Flickr

standard phase kit

Image20171112_151610 by Fortesmentum, on Flickr

Variable phase kit

Image20171112_151729 by Fortesmentum, on Flickr

PhV objective (DIN 45) planachromatic

Image20171112_151759 by Fortesmentum, on Flickr

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Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:13 pm 
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That's a good looking instrument, which should serve you very well.

MichaelG.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Location: Cambridge, UK
Very nice looking instrument


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Beautiful scope, wonderfully equipped.

I'm curious if you can compare the optical quality to something of recent Zeiss/Leica/Nikon/Olympus manufacture? I'd assume somewhat smaller field numbers; anything else you've noticed??


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Hi Ian,
I use a Zeiss Jena NF as my favourite microscope too. It really is a multi-knob-microscope where you can adjust everything, but also can spend some time get get everything right. The very high stage controls are a real disadvantage over the lowly LG model. As far as I know there was no stage with ergonomic positioning of the controls available for this model, but the later Amplival-stages should fit. The prismatic guides and the genaeral workmanship are of very high quality. Overall a bit old fashioned compared to Zeiss West, but with a more elegant design and slightly better workmanship.
Here is a Zeiss document about this model and many more documents: http://www.mikroskop-online.de/Mikroskop%20BDA/30-036b-1%20%20Mikroskope%20Nf%20Ng.pdf

A lot of equipment was available, e.g. a reflected light condensor with objectives and lighting collar or a micro hardness tester. As far as I know, there was no DIC system ever available for this scope.
What is great is the exchangeable revolver and the good supply of 5-nose revolvers on ebay for this model.
The biggest problem with these research grade microscopes is: When you have managed to assemble much of the optional equipment, you need at least three more stands to use it without constant exchanging of parts! :roll:

The enclosed picture of a (25ยต?) stainless steel grid was made with the reflected light system.

How does your beam splitter head work? Do you switch from 100% viewing to 100% camera?

Bob


Attachments:
Edelstahlgitter Auflicht klein.jpg
Edelstahlgitter Auflicht klein.jpg [ 484.11 KiB | Viewed 1668 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Hi, Ian, love that black enamel! I sadly found out years ago that LOMO apochromatic objectives I purchased to have a group of apos, at low cost...well my circa 1980's Nikon Labophot/ Din standard..45 mm objectives barrels could not 'rack down for RMS short barrel objectives'...those LOMO apo objectives do not function with my Labophot. Older stands I have can 'rack down to focus with the RMS (short barrel objectives)...and these older stands can 'rack up for function' with Din 45 mm objectives.

To me it sounds like you also needed to place your short barrel/RMS objectives on an older ( pre-Din standard 45 mm objective barrels) stand for function. Is that what you mean when you note that your elegant Zeiss Jenna NF accepts both RMS short barrel objectives ( like the LOMO's you acquired)...and yet this NF stand can in range of focus adjustment function with Din 45 mm objectives?

I thought the short barrel/finite objectives are termed: 'RMS standard', and 'Din standard' only refers to the longer 45 mm objective barrels?

With my circa 1980 Din 45 phase setup..compatible phase annuli are paired...one annulus disc substage in condenser, the second annlus embedded in the phase objective..these are centered with a 'phase telescope occular'...I see for your standard phase kit (Din 45 mm) ..the objectives (each etched with it's annular disc spec), I see the phase telescope, but where are the substage condenser collection of annular discs in your kit?

Beautiful stand you have tricked out with a variety of components, thank you Ian for this showcase and story of this elegant stand. Charlie Guevara


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Hi Charlie,

the NF dates from the mid-sixties and the objectives then still had the old length of about 33mm (what Lomo copied with a slight varation). As research grade stand it is also able to cope with whatever else objective you have, e.g. 45mm. The interchangeable revolver allows to use different sets of objectives.

The NF like the pre-war Lumipan and the later amplival has different condensors and condensor holders available. One of them is a pancratic revolver condensor. It offers high power and low power bright field heads and and a darkfield head. The main property of this condenser ist the pancratic change of lighting aperture. It is more or less a zoom condenser. To use it for phase contrase one single phase ring in a holder is put at the bottom of the condensor, and with the pacratic aperture adjustment it can be adjusted to the objective in use. This condensor is about as complicated as a complete student microscope.
A thoroughly mis-adjusted NF with pancreatic condensor is a demanding project.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:26 am 
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Location: Houston, Texas
Ian or Bob,

What is the highest and lowest possible lighting aperture NA that the pancratic condenser can provide?

Also, am I correct that the pancratic condenser cannot fit onto LOMO Biolam without modification? I vaguely remember the condenser holders are quite different.

Usable illumination aperture range is useful to know for circular oblique light. I heard the pancratic condenser cannot provide a high NA aperture (or cannot provide it very well), though the person who told me that did not elaborate why.

The Leitz Heine, which is also a zoom condenser, provides about NA 0.35 to NA 1.4, with oil top lens. I cannot remember how low it goes, with the oil lens off (which is not convenient to remove).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 am 
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Thank you, Ian, and thank you, Bob for sharing the histories, the systems, and your paths to proud stewardship of these graceful, elegant black enamel research stands.

Charlie guevara


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:17 am 
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zzffnn wrote:
Ian or Bob,

What is the highest and lowest possible lighting aperture NA that the pancratic condenser can provide?

Also, am I correct that the pancratic condenser cannot fit onto LOMO Biolam without modification? I vaguely remember the condenser holders are quite different.

Usable illumination aperture range is useful to know for circular oblique light. I heard the pancratic condenser cannot provide a high NA aperture (or cannot provide it very well), though the person who told me that did not elaborate why.

The Leitz Heine, which is also a zoom condenser, provides about NA 0.35 to NA 1.4, with oil top lens. I cannot remember how low it goes, with the oil lens off (which is not convenient to remove).

I can use NA 1.4 happily with the pancratic condenser though it took me some time to work out how to best center the light using the toggles on the base of the microscope. I think at first my condense had become misaligned. I think the zoom goes right down to 1 but I'm not with the scope right now. I don't think the dovetail is the same for the Lomo but again can't be certain.

Thanks for all the replies which I will reply to when I have more time!

Thanks charlieg:-)

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Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:53 am 
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PeteM wrote:
Beautiful scope, wonderfully equipped.

I'm curious if you can compare the optical quality to something of recent Zeiss/Leica/Nikon/Olympus manufacture? I'd assume somewhat smaller field numbers; anything else you've noticed??
The most recent microscope I have ever used is the Zeiss Standard 18 - my model being dated 1969/70. The optics on it are neo-fluar and planapochromats, and visually compare similarly to the quality seen through the East German cousin. Likewise the Lomo water immersion apochromats (my favourite being the 70X 1.23) produce superb quality images and are easy to work with.

I suppose that were I to have access to a modern scope with wide filed viewing eye pieces I might have to concede that better quality is out there:-)

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Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:59 am 
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MicroBob wrote:
Hi Ian,


How does your beam splitter head work? Do you switch from 100% viewing to 100% camera?

Bob

Hi Bob - the trinocular head magnifies by X1.6 and switches both ways 100%. It is nice and simple and solidly constructed.

I agree that the beauty of this scope is that it is completely customisable (sadly no DIC that I know of) and built in the true style of Eastern European fastidiousness. Mine needs re-greasing as it is very stiff with course focus, and I agree that the stage is really unfriendly compared to the Zeiss West - as is the condenser and just about everything else. It has taken me a good year just to feel reasonably comfortable working with it whereas the Zeiss Standard was up and running within a week for me.

I like your reflected light photograph.

i have a few questions I'd like to put to you some time if you are up for assisting a fellow NF user:-)

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Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:14 am 
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charlie g wrote:
Hi, Ian, love that black enamel! I sadly found out years ago that LOMO apochromatic objectives I purchased to have a group of apos, at low cost...well my circa 1980's Nikon Labophot/ Din standard..45 mm objectives barrels could not 'rack down for RMS short barrel objectives'...those LOMO apo objectives do not function with my Labophot. Older stands I have can 'rack down to focus with the RMS (short barrel objectives)...and these older stands can 'rack up for function' with Din 45 mm objectives.

To me it sounds like you also needed to place your short barrel/RMS objectives on an older ( pre-Din standard 45 mm objective barrels) stand for function. Is that what you mean when you note that your elegant Zeiss Jenna NF accepts both RMS short barrel objectives ( like the LOMO's you acquired)...and yet this NF stand can in range of focus adjustment function with Din 45 mm objectives?

I thought the short barrel/finite objectives are termed: 'RMS standard', and 'Din standard' only refers to the longer 45 mm objective barrels?

With my circa 1980 Din 45 phase setup..compatible phase annuli are paired...one annulus disc substage in condenser, the second annlus embedded in the phase objective..these are centered with a 'phase telescope occular'...I see for your standard phase kit (Din 45 mm) ..the objectives (each etched with it's annular disc spec), I see the phase telescope, but where are the substage condenser collection of annular discs in your kit?

Beautiful stand you have tricked out with a variety of components, thank you Ian for this showcase and story of this elegant stand. Charlie Guevara


Hello Charlie, the problem for me with the Zeiss Standard is that DIN 33 objectives cannot focus - the stage would not rack up high enough. I did get hold of a Zeiss DIC extender which enabled me just to focus, as long as I didn't fully screw the objective in - so for me a horrible compromise - particularly as doing this is not recommended in terms of good optical practice.



RMS standard is apparently 31mm and DIN standard 45mm.

Phase on the Zeiss Jena is very simple - a single anuli is placed in the light well and the zoom condenser is zoomed up and down to math the anuli with the rings in the objectives. This allows me to use just about any phase objecitve including the LOMO WI 70X 1.23 that many people complain they can't find a matching phase condenser for.

Variable phase is a little different - an add-on is attached to the pancratic condenser - again with one phase ring - and the zoom condense zoomed until both anuli are matched. I'll attach some photos when I get home to better explain this.

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Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:03 pm 
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IanW wrote:
I can use NA 1.4 happily with the pancratic condenser ........


Ian,

Please excuse me, as I just want to double check:

I was asking if the edge of the illumination ring, provided by the pancreatic condenser, can match the aperture edge of a NA 1.4 objective (when viewed from objective back focal plane). I am asking this for circular oblique light (COL) application (not for phase). I think you were talking about COL, though I just want to confirm.

I would guess the illumination ring can go down far more than NA 1.0 at the edge, since it was originally designed for phase use? Many NA 0.65 phase objectives have phase ring NA of around NA 0.32, so illumination ring may have to go down to NA 0.32?

Thank you very much,
Fan

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm 
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zzffnn wrote:
IanW wrote:
I can use NA 1.4 happily with the pancratic condenser ........


Ian,

Please excuse me, as I just want to double check:

I was asking if the edge of the illumination ring, provided by the pancreatic condenser, can match the aperture edge of a NA 1.4 objective (when viewed from objective back focal plane). I am asking this for circular oblique light (COL) application (not for phase). I think you were talking about COL, though I just want to confirm.

I would guess the illumination ring can go down far more than NA 1.0 at the edge, since it was originally designed for phase use? Many NA 0.65 phase objectives have phase ring NA of around NA 0.32, so illumination ring may have to go down to NA 0.32?

Thank you very much,
Fan
My apologies. I meant 0.1 not 1.0 and in fact it goes down to 0.16. You are correct regarding 1.4 - that is for phase use and I have not checked how it would work with circular oblique lighting so cannot comment at this moment. Perhaps someone else could help out here until I can try this out.

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Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:10 am 
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Fantastic stand you have in your ...err...family of stands! It brings cheer for others and me to share your proud Zeiss Jena setup! My circa late 1960's Austria/Reichert Biozet trinoc (former trusty workhorse stand)...and my now go to workhorse stand..(circa 1980, Nikon trinoc Pol-Labophot stand, purchased from it's original owner, a former Nikon tech/sales rep,,who still runs an online microscopy firm)...well these stands kick with glee in our microscopy room at the joy of your kind posting, Ian. thank you for a wonderful experience, Charlie Guevara/ finger lakes/US


Attachments:
DSCN1900.JPG
DSCN1900.JPG [ 352.9 KiB | Viewed 1581 times ]


Last edited by charlie g on Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:38 am 
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@zzffnn: The Biolam is a copy of the Zeiss Jena LG, made from 1934 on which must have been a revolution at this point of time. Early Biolams until about 1970 (not quite shure if this name was actually used) were close copies and not much worse than the original. Later the Biolam was simplyfied with cast aluminium parts and even later the cheap to make disc fine focus. The next bigger Zeiss Jena was the NG (with quick change for condensors but no exchangeable stage, otherwise similar to NF), the NF (exchangeable stage, separate condensor focusing block, quick change condensors) and finally the NU (so big it came with it's own desk). The quick change condensor holders don't fit to the Biolam or Zeiss LG. It wouldn't fit anyway because of the height. The NF condensor focussing block is about as heavy as a newer biolam stand :lol: .There were bigger LOMO-Microscopes which might be compatible with the NF-System. Here in Germany they are very rare and I don't have any information on them.

@IanW: I'm happy to answer any questions as long as I know the answer myself. :D
Here you can see how to dismantle the NF focussing gears:
https://mikroskopie-forum.at/index.php/Thread/955-Wie-Feintrieb-am-Zeiss-Jena-Nf-ausbauen/?pageNo=1&s=6ec01110a4d75171ed3e60c21d061389a0bb7cfe
Read it thoroughly and have all the tools ready before you start. Take your time. I haven't had an NF gear apart myself. Using a microscope with gummed up ways is not good because the fine focus gear train is constantly overloaded.

For the cleaning of the pancreatic condenser I can send you a document via e-Mail.

Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Thank you very much, Bob.

Now I remember it. I looked at pancreatic condenser before and considered it too long for Biolam. I can probably DIY fit in onto other scopes though (I have fitted a Leitz Heine onto Nikon Optiphot). How long is it, when fully extended?

If you have tried it, please kindly let me know the illumination cone NA that the pancreatic condenser can provide for circular oblique light.

I am not sure Biolam is that light weight, but at around 7lbs, I do use it as a portable :-) I don't like its disc focus (mainly because its range is so short), so the early generation traditional focus works better? Indeed most similarly sized scopes that I have tried have better focus mechanisms. Thank you for your comments.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Hi zzffnn,

the max. height is 103mm. On the NF the pancreatic condenser is looking at a field diaphragm about 30mm below the bottom of the condenser.

Image
Image

Which of the condenser heads would you use for COL? The darkfield head or the high power bright field head? The brightfield head will deliver just the n.A of 1.4 as it is printed on it. It's a Zeiss product. :D On the darkfield condenser head there is no n.A. marked.

I think the gear driven fine focus on the Biolam old and the Zeiss LG will have 2mm of travel.
The disc fine focus is much cheaper to make and less fragile, but I don't like it apart from that. For a portable microscope it is probably very good.
The Zeiss LG and its russian offspring are really nice instruments to use, especially if you are not too tall.

The pancreatic condenser altogether offers no possibility for mechanical adjustment, only the heads are somewhat adjustable. As far as I know stand and condenser were sold in pairs ant you were not supposed to mix parts with other units. If you would try to fit this condenser to a different stand you would need considerable measuring and machining capabilities and preferably build in some adjustability in the mount. You might consider buying an NF instead. :lol:

Bob


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