Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

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dzarren
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:39 am

Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#1 Post by dzarren » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:04 pm

Hi there! I was wondering if you guys could help me a bit with a microscope i just acquired.

This was sold to me as a 1968 Olympus, but it most certainly is not that. It did come in an Olympus box. I pretty much bought it blind because it was only 55 dollars, and i figured, I wouldn't mind a 1968 Oylmpus to mess around with, even if it wasn't in the best of shapes. But when I went to go pick it up, it was this Carl Zeiss Jena, and that was a nice surprise. And he gave me 5 dollars off because I had to wait in the parking lot for 20 minutes for him.
I have a few questions about this scope.

How old is this scope? I have seen some that claim to be 1904 CZ Jena, and are full black enamel or japanning. That probably would not be accurate, i thought the full black scopes weren't really around till at least 1920 or so.
I'm thinking that this particular example is probably from 1910s or so, maybe earlier.
What do you guys think about the condition of the scope?

What is the best way to go about cleaning this? I'm not really looking to polish it to a super shine, and re-enamel it, just looking to take off any crud and what not. I typically use IPA to clean more modern scope parts, but I noticed a small light yellowish color coming off onto the rags i was using, so i assume that's me stripping off some of the enamel. I've stopped this process, and probably won't continue till i figure this out.
Typically when I get a new scope, I clean everything, especially the mating surfaces with IPA so i can re apply some new damping grease. In the past, all the mating surfaces I've worked on are non-enameled brass. How to i go about cleaning these mating surfaces, as well as the aesthetic surfaces? Do they need separate treatment? I don't mind the antique look, just trying to make it nice, and not have stuff stuck to it.

The scope has clearly been maintained and re-built before. The action is very smooth, so i can only assume it has been re greased at some point, and I can see some damage done to some screw heads, and the spanner bolt that holds the turret to the main tube is so damaged it will probably never be able to be removed.

I do have some more questions, but I'll post some pictures to better frame my questions.

Here is the box it came in, as well as the Olympus certification card that was inside.

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And well here are a few pictures of the scope.

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So a few more questions about the scope.

Is that the original mechanical stage? It seems a little modern. What does the text on it mean?

Why does this scope have a rotating stage? Does this mean it is some sort of polarized light setup? There are no graduations on the stage to delineate rotation.
And concerning the stage, what part am I missing in the middle of the stage? I assume there was a piece of circular glass at some point? How can I get this part, or what can I replace it with?

Why does the condenser have a rack and pinion to move iris back and forth in the xy?



The scope came with 4 objectives and 2 eyepieces.
Here are the eye pieces. one is an Olympus with a micrometer scale thing on the inside. The other is a CZ Jena, maybe original? Looks quite modern.
What does the "Mobini" on the CZ mean?
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And the objectives.
There are 2 CZ Jena objectives. Are these original objectives? I have been told at some point that these scopes were sold with no objectives, and you had to sort of build your own setup back then, as needs were probably more specific.
The "A" is an 8 times, and the "D" is a 40 times.
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I also got this CZ 100 times Oil immersion objective.
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The most interesting objective is this one, made by Zanger & Endres.
It is also an Oil Immersion Objective, and has the ratio 1/12 on it. I think this means it is a 95 times objective, but I am not sure.
Can anyone tell me more about this objective? Seems very cool.

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And here are some more pictures of the scope taken a bit apart.

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How do I clean the nasty off this turret? If i unscrew the main central screw, will a bunch of ball bearings fall out? Is this even the original turret?
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Charles
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:55 pm

Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#2 Post by Charles » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:23 pm

That is the A stand model with the serial number dates it to 1924. The 100X is not original and is newer. The rack and pinion below the condenser is for oblique lighting. The mechanical stage is more modern and is not original and probably made in Leiden, Netherlands. Most of the high end Zeiss scopes had circular stages. The hole in the center did not have a glass plate but may have had a round black metal insert to reduce the diameter of the hole.

I would just clean it, without trying to remove the patina, with a degreaser or mild solvent like WD40 on a clothe and tooth brush and then oil and grease the gears and moving parts.

A very good buy at $50.

Element 56
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Location: Lancaster County, PA

Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#3 Post by Element 56 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:07 am

Be very careful cleaning the lacquered brass! Very diluted mild detergent with no alcohol is all you should use. Better yet clean it with Johnson's paste or renaissance wax.

Also I would not recommend WD-40 or any aerosol on the lacquer either. It's not worth ruining the beautiful finish on that instrument. Once it's gone it's not coming back!

Kirby

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#4 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:22 am

Element 56 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:07 am
Be very careful cleaning the lacquered brass! Very diluted mild detergent with no alcohol is all you should use. Better yet clean it with Johnson's paste or renaissance wax.

Also I would not recommend WD-40 or any aerosol on the lacquer either. It's not worth ruining the beautiful finish on that instrument. Once it's gone it's not coming back!

Kirby
I would first clean with dilute mild detergent and then apply the microcrystalline wax on the of-chance the wax makes some undesirable filth more difficult to clean, although be careful with it. It's extremely difficult to fully remove from glass surfaces

Also, traditional lacquer finishes can be restored, but it would cost significantly more than what you paid for that microscope as it requires a dab hand to pull off. There are fewer true lacquer finishers out there than a century ago, but some still exist. ed - oh yeah and ditto what Kirby said about the alcohol it is the solvent that is used to dissolve the lacquer in the first place and will strip it right off very quickly with some rubbing.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Charles
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Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#5 Post by Charles » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:33 pm

It's always good to get different opinions and never throw caution to the wind. You can wash in soap and water but make sure it drys completely or it will corrode. After washing and drying, make sure you add a protectant like Renaissance wax and grease/oil the moving parts. If you look in Collecting Microscopes and Slides, you can see many of my collection, antique and more modern, which have been cleaned by me. I have found WD40 is a very nice cleaner and provides some protection. It does not remove lacquer but you do need to make sure you wipe dry with a clean cloth after cleaning as it will gas off and be careful to not use on any optics. I have also used a product called Ballistol, which is a gun cleaner and preservative, which cleans and preserves metal surfaces. The toothbrush will get the not so easy to reach areas in joints and crevices. With any products, after cleaning, make sure you wipe it well with a dry cloth and wipe it again the next day or two.

Element 56
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Location: Lancaster County, PA

Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#6 Post by Element 56 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:40 pm

Charles wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:33 pm
I have also used a product called Ballistol, which is a gun cleaner and preservative, which cleans and preserves metal surfaces. The toothbrush will get the not so easy to reach areas in joints and crevices. With any products, after cleaning, make sure you wipe it well with a dry cloth and wipe it again the next day or two.
My wife gets mad whenever I use Ballistol. I use it on some of my machine tools as a lubricant but stinks like no other oil save for sperm oil!

Kirby

Charles
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Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#7 Post by Charles » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:29 pm

My wife will burn scented candles whenever I use it cleaning my guns inside the house. After awhile, you get use to the smell. :)

dzarren
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#8 Post by dzarren » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:08 pm

Charles wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:23 pm
That is the A stand model with the serial number dates it to 1924. The 100X is not original and is newer. The rack and pinion below the condenser is for oblique lighting. The mechanical stage is more modern and is not original and probably made in Leiden, Netherlands. Most of the high end Zeiss scopes had circular stages. The hole in the center did not have a glass plate but may have had a round black metal insert to reduce the diameter of the hole.

I would just clean it, without trying to remove the patina, with a degreaser or mild solvent like WD40 on a clothe and tooth brush and then oil and grease the gears and moving parts.

A very good buy at $50.
Hello! Thanks for the info. How did you determine the model? I cant find any information online about the A stand model, could you link me to some articles or similar? And also how did you get to the date so quickly? I will try contacting the archive people, i would love to be able to see who this scope was sold to and when, and for how much would be cool too. Do you have a link to where you were able to search the serial number and get a date so quickly? or is there a small chart with some ranges i could look at?




BramHuntingNematodes wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:22 am
Element 56 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:07 am
Be very careful cleaning the lacquered brass! Very diluted mild detergent with no alcohol is all you should use. Better yet clean it with Johnson's paste or renaissance wax.

Also I would not recommend WD-40 or any aerosol on the lacquer either. It's not worth ruining the beautiful finish on that instrument. Once it's gone it's not coming back!

Kirby
I would first clean with dilute mild detergent and then apply the microcrystalline wax on the of-chance the wax makes some undesirable filth more difficult to clean, although be careful with it. It's extremely difficult to fully remove from glass surfaces

Also, traditional lacquer finishes can be restored, but it would cost significantly more than what you paid for that microscope as it requires a dab hand to pull off. There are fewer true lacquer finishers out there than a century ago, but some still exist. ed - oh yeah and ditto what Kirby said about the alcohol it is the solvent that is used to dissolve the lacquer in the first place and will strip it right off very quickly with some rubbing.



Yeah, as for full restoration, i don't think it is the route i am going to go. I do realize i got the microscope practically for free, so its cost will be negligible in comparison to any professional restoration i do to it. I actually do love the look of the lacquered but still shiny brass, and am looking for some way just to clean the surface without removing any lacquer. I will be sure to stay away from any strong solvents.



Thanks for the help, I am very interested in getting access to these resources you guys have, to find dates and stuff. I see on some sites they even have scans of the original purchase orders and stuff like that, i would love to see that for this scope.

Element 56
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:48 pm
Location: Lancaster County, PA

Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#9 Post by Element 56 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:30 pm

For a mild abrasive that is safe on lacquer you can use Pre-Lim. It would take some effort but it's possible to rub through the finish if you get a little overzealous. When used properly it's a great product. Follow with a Renaissance wax or Johnson's. You have a nice instrument that will last for years!

https://restorationproduct.com/shop/pre-lim/

Kirby

dzarren
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Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#10 Post by dzarren » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:22 pm

Awesome! thanks for the link to that product, ill search for it.

I was able to reach the Zeiss archive people and i was able to get some information regarding the scope. I was hoping to get a little more, but maybe they have changed what they can give out.
I have seen in the past, some people have access to the actual scans of the original purchase orders, including who bought it, and how much it was sold for, and when.

Anyway, this is what i was able to get regarding my scope!
The Carl Zeiss Jena microscope no. 154618 is a stand BCD and was delivered to Salm in Amsterdam in 1926.
It was equipped with the lenses Ach. 8 and 40 D and the eyepieces H 7x and 15x.
Please find attached a description and a picture.
I find this very interesting, because when i got the scope (last week), it did indeed have 8x and 40x CZ Jena objectives on the turret. Not bad for sticking around since 1926??
I did also have a 15x eyepiece in the box, so i'm assuming this is also original, quite happy about that.
Unfortunatly, the 7x eyepiece is gone, and would have been very useful. If anyone has this, or maybe a 5x or 10x, or similar, i'd be very interested in purchasing it. I'd be looking for a CZ Jena of the same vintage.

And while I'm still making requests, i would also be very very interested if anyone had any objectives that are suitable for this vintage. I'd probably be looking for 3x or 4x, and maybe a 20x or 50x, not sure if those even exist.

So the kind people at the archives also sent me the manual from 1926 for this very model. Had lots of information that was fun to read. I hope it is okay that I am sharing this here, i have not been able to find this document anywhere else online.

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There was also this chart which lists some of the available objectives and optical accessories. So i guess there are 3x, and 20x and 50x, so if anyone have these and are willing to sell, I would love to talk to you.

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At this point, i'm pretty much done rebuilding the scope, I took it all apart to clean and regrease. The rack for the condenser had two shims behind it, looks to be a 2 thou shim, maybe 1 thou, hard to tell because it is super wrinkly, so i can't get a clean measurement on it. one of the shims was missing and replaced with what looks to be some kind of baking paper. I'm passing by Lee Valley today, apparently they have a shim stock combo pack, with several different thicknesses, in 2x6" sheets, which is more than i'll ever need. The other option was to buy one roll of one thickness, in a huge quantity, so this combo pack will serve me well.

So once again, if anyone had any of the objectives or eye pieces that i might be missing, i would love to talk to you about what we could trade or exchange.

Thanks all!

MichaelG.
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Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#11 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:00 pm

dzarren wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:22 pm
Unfortunatly, the 7x eyepiece is gone, and would have been very useful.
Just an idle thought ...
I wonder if the relatively modern LOMO 7x eyepiece uses the same optical prescription
... it wouldn’t surprise me.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

Charles
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Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#12 Post by Charles » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:44 pm

Great you got the proper model and date. I get my Zeiss information from a book by Lawrence Gubas. He had a picture of the A stand but did not have the B stand. In the book he states they are very similar but the B is bigger than the A. So I took the serial number for the A stand which shows 1924. The serial number for the B stand shows 1925. So it may have been made in 1925 but shipped in 1926. Attached are some pictures of the A stand, his note and the serial numbers for both the A and B Stand.
Zeiss A-B Stand.jpg
Zeiss A-B Stand.jpg (116.9 KiB) Viewed 1199 times
Zeiss Serial No.jpg
Zeiss Serial No.jpg (170.48 KiB) Viewed 1199 times

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Rossf
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Re: Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 154618 help!

#13 Post by Rossf » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:07 pm

Hi dzarren-very cool purchase for the price of about 10 coffees-and at least you got a nice wooden case as well.definitely worth it-I wish you hourS of fun with it!
Ross

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