AO 10 Arrived today - trying to ID everything to ask intelligent questions about upgrading

[BadDog]

After several weeks of reading and reading I have come to appreciate the wisdom and dedication of members on this forum who take the time to help newbies like myself.
It has been 40 y since I did microscope work in grad school studying marine meiobenthos. Not so much on determining the ultrastructure as watching interactions in petri dishes with thin layers of sand. We had some very nice Wild scopes of various types

I liked the AO following and have tried to amass what I have read. Here is the microscope that came today and what I know and am guessing.

AO scope.jpg (96.39 KiB) Viewed 2564 times

It looks very similar to: viewtopic.php?t=9894#p84320

AO Spencer - 812809 (serial number I think - could not find the match with year beyond about 400,000)
Series 10 (Gray - Series 10, 20, 110, 120 (1961-85) Infinity, 34mm parfocal)
Objectives are #1075, #1076, described as "developed" as the first set for the 10" and #1116 (per apochronaut: "As a result of the 1116s tolerance for thicker coverslips it is an ideal objective for the routine viewing of cheaper prepared slides, many of which have cover slips so thick that some 40X objectives have trouble focusing on the subject."
Transformer #1051 - hums
Illuminator #1036a - produces light
Condenser #1084 abbe aspheric 1.25
Eyepieces #176 - 10x wide field

Use:
Look through 1ml soil samples shaken lightly in total 5ml chlorine-free water
Look for larger critters (microarthropods, larger microbes, aggregates, strands of fungal hyphae, etc.) at 4x and 10x
Get to know what the nematodes and ciliates and amoebas are doing/move/etc.
Count several replicate fields of bacteria - learn to dilute to counts around 20-40
I want to just start to learn how to identify major groups (e.g., nematode feeding types based on pharyngeal, mouth, and lip structures)
Don't know if basic brightfield will work or need other choices

Plans:
Check basic functioning of the optics; the mechanics seem fine at this point (all controls turn, slide, etc. easily)
Add another objective to the 4, 10, and 45x. Probably a 20, maybe a 100. Stay dry for now. Oil later.
Learn this microscope and how far it can get me
Join the AO fan club (I just could not get myself to get a new $250-ish AmScope/Swift - altho they do have their place) - apochronaut, you have so much great information and you seem very patient with what must seem the umpteenth time almost the same question gets posed).
Do photography through one eyepiece for now - start with cell phone camera to learn

Questions:
1. What are upgrade paths for objectives and matching oculars? I would plan on plan objectives as the next logical step to improve field of view in focus
2. Upgrade path for condensers - combined/separate? (I should know soon whether I will have a lot of organisms with the same refractive index as water). From reading I think there are some set ups and approaches that get a bit close to darkfield - all a bit of a new area for me. In grad school I had true scope masters to just tell me how to make images look better . Is this worth pursuing? --> "For the finest visual and photomicrographical work the fully corrected achromatic condenser is preferred." from: https://user.xmission.com/~psneeley/Per ... ndends.htm
3. Upgrade path for illuminator if necessary?
4. Apparently trinocular heads are available (would love to get my Canon 80D DSLR set up on that if my skill and the optics make that a reasonable upgrade when the time comes) - which part numbers would these be?

And thanks to those who regularly read the posts and assist newcomers like myself.

[apochronaut]

You made a good choice. For it's time the AO 10 was genius and to this day is still pretty close to peak, certainly when it comes to value per $. I can answer some of your questions and perhaps add a bit.

1) The optical path is pretty finely tuned to the optics available for it. When it was envisioned , the 19mm f.o.v. of the 10 was big, since even 18mm had yet to become the default across brands. You can't really go much bigger in the aperture of that microscope but I never really found it necessary. I recall that 176A eyepieces for some reason are a little wider They are designed to partially correct for some of the peripheral aberrations of the standard set of objectives such as you have. Originally, though, the 176 were used with those. If you are heading towards plan objectives anyway, I would stick with the 176 eyepieces and instead pick up a pair of cat.# 184 15X W.F. eyepieces. They will increase the flexibility of the system, adding 60X, 150X and 675X to your instrument as is. That is the best way to add a 60X objective to an AO 34mm parfocal infinity corrected microscope. There was a 63X semi-plan made as of 1980 but try to find one at a good price.
Be aware that when they brought out the plan objectives in 1967, only the #1022 20X, the #1023 40X and #1024 100X were particular improvements. The #1075 and # 1076 already were virtually plan to 19mm, so much so that later versions of those two objectives were marked planachro. The later #1017 4X and #1019 10X are just the 1075 and 1076 in wider barrels. Around 1980, the 1127, (I think it is) 4X planachro and 1021 10X planachro are what I would call major improvements and upgrade to, as well as a #1309 40X snd # 1311 100X.

2) There were two achromatic condensers possible for the 10 and two more added later that you could benefit a bit from but unless you plan on buying into a phase system and or much higher end objectives and at much greater cost, I think you will find the abbe aspheric adequate.
The #1242 phase condenser appears to be a .90 dry achromat aplanat although I have never found any literature to indicate that, just an analysis of the design and some testing.. It uses what became a standard thread for all subsequent condensers except the #1970 W.F. abbe aspheric unique to the 400 series microscopes. The #1242 would be the only semi-practical upgrade, mainly due to phase possibility but you would need to add either the #1240 carousel phase condenser mount or the single # 1241 phase condenser mount because the # 1084 abbe aspheric mount has a different thread. In my experience, the abbe aspherics when used dry are as good as a dry achromat aplanat and a little better when oil immersed. Only the 1.30 or later 1.40 achromat aplanats would offer a significant improvement but either would be pricey, if you could find one.
One immediate advantage to the phase carousel condenser is that you have immediate DF with the 4 and 10X objectives by using the 40X and 100X phase diaphragms as stops.

3) The 18 watt tungsten illuminator you have , I find perfectly adequate for BF, Phase snd DF except for high resolution ( 100X)DF. There may be an led replacement that would get you there but I haven't investigated that. You do need a medium blue filter over the illuminator window, though. There are two finger reliefs there for a filter tray and also a swing in , swing out basket for under the condenser. The blue filter improves the quality of imaging by a wide margin.

4) I would go for a trinocular head but try to find one with the photo tube intact. Those are hard to find and the knock offs, not quite their equal.

[dtsh]

Looks like apochronaut provided a detailed response as usual and there's not much to add.
I am quite fond of the series 10; considering the long run of the series and the use of the same objective specification in most of their compound microscopes up to the introduction of the 45mm line makes finding pieces fairly easy compared to some other manufacturers. Depending on what you do, I find upgrading to phase contrast to add functionality without breaking the bank.

Adding polarization is pretty trivial, I had a thread for adding polarization for the AO 410 which works just as well on the AO10. It might not be easy to find the same parts I did, but it should at least serve as an example.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14467

Darkfield condensers are also fairly plentiful and also not terribly expensive.

[BadDog]

Thank you both so much for the input. I am sure I will have more questions later once I have done some due diligence. I love the heft of the AO10. FWIW - I purchased off eBay (at $65 plus $35 shipping) since there was a sticker showing it had been serviced in 2022. That eased my trepidation somewhat that I would have a lot of work to do on it before being able to run through the optics.

Here are my next purchase/acquisition steps based on the input
- Add a medium blue filter over the illuminator window
- #184 eyepieces (Thanks for the reminder on eyepieces - I had seen your (apochronaut) very cogent and persuasive discussion of adding the 15X for more flexibility. I'll start searching for #184 and use those as my 67.5X - with my 45X)
- Trinocular head with photo tube intact (I will try to find part numbers that will work to make searching easier)

Thanks for letting me know that my 4x #1075 and 10x #1076 are "virtually plan to 19mm"
I'll start my prioritized wish list on objectives as:
- #1127 4X planachro
- #1021 10X planachro
- #1309 40X planachro

Later possibilities
- #1311 100X objective
- #1242 condenser plus #1240 carousel phase condenser mount for DF use of 4x and 10x objectives
- LED illuminator if needing 100X DF

thanks dtsh, I'll start looking into polarization based on your link, and thanks for the tip on DF condensers

[deBult]

Wow excellent value for money.

Consider using what you have now before investing in upgrades.

I worked with a simple Olympus E-type bino for 40 years before upgrading to plan and later Apo objectives.

Most of my observation is pond samples related and simple achromats (with relative large depth of field) are a good match here.
When moving into taking pictures of microtome plant cuts i moved into using the plan Apo’s.

[dtsh]

Thank you both so much for the input. I am sure I will have more questions later once I have done some due diligence. I love the heft of the AO10. FWIW - I purchased off eBay (at $65 plus $35 shipping) since there was a sticker showing it had been serviced in 2022. That eased my trepidation somewhat that I would have a lot of work to do on it before being able to run through the optics.

One of my favorite aspects of the 10 is the focus mechanism. Many of them need cleaned after all these years, but it is so smooth and the mechanism itself is a thing of beauty and brilliance in operation. The ability to rack the focus up and down, with each objective being usually just a touch off of the fine and no real likelihood of damage is a feature that is nice to have and missed when it isn't present. One objective or expensive slide crushed in an instrument without it and you will forever be grateful for it.

I've cleaned up a couple dozen of the focus mechanisms so if yours is sticky and need some advice I'm sure I or someone else can give some pointers.

The 1309 can take time to find as is is somewhat uncommon, but it isn't exactly "rare" either. I've had some luck acquiring a few already attached to stands when I was still picking stuff up, rarely ever noted in the descriptions, but a careful eye can sometimes spot them. Parts are often available on eBay and the like, but many times members will have what you're after and are sometimes open to a little horse trading or being able to source a couple of items at once and saving on shipping. I have several of the items you mentioned myself, but as @deBult advised, I would get familiar with what you have first. I've got a bunch of spare parts if you happen to need anything, but few things I have are pristine. Most of it has a little wear here and there, but functional.

I have a Cat.1309 on my one of my stands as well as a Cat.1116 43x because apochronaut wasn't joking when he mentioned the depth being much more limited. I personally don't find it that useful as much of what I look at are arthropods and similar thicker specimens and while I do occasionally take pictures, imaging isn't something I do a lot of.

[apochronaut]

One thing about AO 34mm parfocal parts/objectives is that due to the sheer volumn of them sold in the U.S., plus a more modern penchant for U.S.ers to blindly venerate the Japanese and Germans and look down on certain of their domestic products ; the fancy AO 10 upgrades are really inexpensive. I've seen almost new 1309 and 1311 objectives go for 30-40 bucks and they are pretty much planfluorite performance level objectives, although called " advanced achromats " in the literature. That's because there was limited fluorite glass in them because the AO optical designers had moved on to lanthanum flint and titanium crown glass amongst many other low dispersion and pecisely predictable performers.
Surprisingly, Arthur Shoemsker managed to stuff not only a 10X .30 planapo and a 40X .80 planapo into a 34mm barrel but received a patent for a 34mm parfocal 100X 1.30 planapo with a 24mm f.n. Quite remarkable actually, considering that at the time, other competing objectives were 45mm parfocal.
The planapos are rare and I have never seen the 100X. It may not have ever come to market.

[BadDog]

Thanks all for the input (including your usage of basic objectives, @deBult). I've saved my eBay searches for the part numbers, and taking to heart that I may not find great deals by part number, but more by whole or not working systems that get advertised that include the parts I want that may not be specifically listed (@apochronaut).

I could use your collective wisdom on strategies for finding and purchasing parts. I feel like I have time, but not much knowledge about prices or judging quality from eBay pictures or descriptions.

For example, regarding a Trinocular head - I don't see them advertised by part number. And, I don't currently see much available separately; is it best to buy another AO 10 with the Trinocular head? I see one around $100. What about acquiring a Trinocular With Phase Centering Eyepiece? Is that a "down the road" and not for brightfield?
Any ideas on finding the 15X 184s and price range would be helpful - a couple pairs on eBay from $80 - 100 (this would be my 60x objective equivalent ) Might make more sense to see if a Trinocular head comes with 15X but I also see #147 which I take to be different than the #184s.

Luckily, I am happy to start with photographing through one of the binocs for now as I learn those ins and outs. @dtsh - One thing I would like to be able to do is assign nematodes to functional feeding groups, so would need to see the pharynx and lips and presence of a stylet. I think these can be among the larger organisms so I am hoping the 1116 works for that.

Now to find the slides I purchased a while back when I thought I might culture mushroom mycelia... ah, retirement projects LOL.

Thanks again all - I feel like Dorothy on the yellow brick road, for some reason.

[BadDog]

I omitted a question on the blue filter. What size and a good source for one?
Thanks.

[dtsh]

I could use your collective wisdom on strategies for finding and purchasing parts. I feel like I have time, but not much knowledge about prices or judging quality from eBay pictures or descriptions.

I have found using part numbers works great among hobbyists, such as us, but for online acquisitions quite often the person selling it knows very little about it and it's up to you to ask them specific questions about what you want to know. Getting answers is hit and miss with many of them.

For example, regarding a Trinocular head - I don't see them advertised by part number. And, I don't currently see much available separately; is it best to buy another AO 10 with the Trinocular head? I see one around $100. What about acquiring a Trinocular With Phase Centering Eyepiece? Is that a "down the road" and not for brightfield?

The Bertrand lens for the phase equipment is most useful with phase contrast, but it can have some utility otherwise. Bertrands and the similar centering telescopes can be handy for examining other planes and focal points, which can sometimes be useful in aligning, finding dust or damage, etc. For typical brightfield use, probably not particularly valuable in day to day use.

Any ideas on finding the 15X 184s and price range would be helpful - a couple pairs on eBay from $80 - 100 (this would be my 60x objective equivalent ) Might make more sense to see if a Trinocular head comes with 15X but I also see #147 which I take to be different than the #184s.

The Cat.147 are for the 160mm FL systems and many of the stereo scopes; same for the Cat.146. For the 34mm infinity stuff, 176, 184, and 180 are the most commonly sought. I am sure apochonaut can comment in regard to some of the others and their application with the 34mm infinity as he's got more experience with them than I do.

Luckily, I am happy to start with photographing through one of the binocs for now as I learn those ins and outs. @dtsh - One thing I would like to be able to do is assign nematodes to functional feeding groups, so would need to see the pharynx and lips and presence of a stylet. I think these can be among the larger organisms so I am hoping the 1116 works for that.

Advice I had read from apochonaut before that I have used and found effective is to use one of the multi-views that allows an extra head. You can then use a monocular head with a camera along with being able to simultaneously view through the bino. It does basically halve the light as it splits it from one head to the other, but if you have enough illumination it can work well. The Multi-view heads are plentiful and there are a variety of mon heads, including one intended for photography that sticks straight up. Somewhere here I think I still have a 3D printed head that uses the converging lens salvaged from a damaged head. It isn't perfect and requires some careful manual alignment, but if there's an interest I'll see if I can dig up the model (I may have even posted it already)

I omitted a question on the blue filter. What size and a good source for one?
Thanks.

If you mean for setting on top of the field lens, 32mm. Any decent quality filter of the right diameter should do fine.

[BadDog]

Wow, thanks @dtsh.

I will look at the multi-view option and the mono head for the camera as alternative to the trinocular head . Let me know if you did post the 3D printed head. And keep the Phase Centering set up for farther down the road item.
Thanks for the strategy to check and ask about on-line items. Do you roll the dice on "as is" items or just steer clear?
Thanks for clarification on the 147 oculars
Thanks for the 32mm size clarification for the blue filter. Off to the hunt.

Always one last question. Where do you source your slides/coverslips for day to day and then for any permanent mounts? I was spoiled in grad school, we just went to the supply shelf. Now those boxes would be on eBay, I think .
And, your personal approach to pricing? Time spent, how the pictures look, knowledge of common problems, etc. <- I just don't have the time in to know if $100 is an OK deal for #184 objectives. Is there a specific place on the forum to ask whether something looks like a decent price?
Thanks!!!!

[GerryR]

"The Cat.147 are for the 160mm FL systems and many of the stereo scopes; same for the Cat.146. For the 34mm infinity stuff, 176, 184, and 180 are the most commonly sought. I am sure apochonaut can comment in regard to some of the others and their application with the 34mm infinity as he's got more experience with them than I do."

I had bought a series 10 binocular head that came with 147 eyepieces and they work fine. I would like to know if there is truly a difference between them and the 184's.

Edited to add the following note"

***Tom Woods writes: "Mystery of 146B, 147B, and 157B eyepieces solved. In examining a Cycloptic catalog from 1975, in the back of which AO were still listing and selling the Series 23-28 Greenough type dissecting microscopes, I found references to the "B" series of these eyepieces. Apparently these were retrofits to these older Greenough style microscopes. As you know the 146, 147, and 157 eyepieces were standard issue on the AO Series 2/4 and the Cycloptic microscopes. These eyepieces were also advertised for sale on the AO Series 10 scopes, and the Cat. 157 20X eyepieces were still being advertised for sale with the AO 110 Series scopes."

[dtsh]

Always one last question. Where do you source your slides/coverslips for day to day and then for any permanent mounts? I was spoiled in grad school, we just went to the supply shelf. Now those boxes would be on eBay, I think .
And, your personal approach to pricing? Time spent, how the pictures look, knowledge of common problems, etc. <- I just don't have the time in to know if $100 is an OK deal for #184 objectives. Is there a specific place on the forum to ask whether something looks like a decent price?
Thanks!!!!

My standards are not very high, but I have a bunch of cheap import slides most of which I think came with a scope at one point. I make maybe 15-30 permanent slides a year, so I don't consume many. My coverslips are also not especially high quality, more typical import quality. I do have a few that came with another scope that are nicer, but I rarely touch them most of the time since most of what I do is trivial on the 10 and well within it's capabilities. Every now and then I'll do something that is more challenging and might mic to find slides and coverslips closer to ideal. I break the odd slide here and there, moreso coverslips but not that many of those either. I am not a heavy user of my compound, use comes in pulses but infrequently; I use the stereo far more often and even it not regularly.

I think one can spend a mountain of money trying to get the best this and that, but I think experimentation and experience will lead a person to learn when what is on hand isn't enough.

"The Cat.147 are for the 160mm FL systems and many of the stereo scopes; same for the Cat.146. For the 34mm infinity stuff, 176, 184, and 180 are the most commonly sought. I am sure apochonaut can comment in regard to some of the others and their application with the 34mm infinity as he's got more experience with them than I do."

I had bought a series 10 binocular head that came with 147 eyepieces and they work fine. I would like to know if there is truly a difference between them and the 184's.

Edited to add the following note"

***Tom Woods writes: "Mystery of 146B, 147B, and 157B eyepieces solved. In examining a Cycloptic catalog from 1975, in the back of which AO were still listing and selling the Series 23-28 Greenough type dissecting microscopes, I found references to the "B" series of these eyepieces. Apparently these were retrofits to these older Greenough style microscopes. As you know the 146, 147, and 157 eyepieces were standard issue on the AO Series 2/4 and the Cycloptic microscopes. These eyepieces were also advertised for sale on the AO Series 10 scopes, and the Cat. 157 20X eyepieces were still being advertised for sale with the AO 110 Series scopes."

If I remember correctly, the 34mm infinity is a 182mm reference length, so while 160mm should work, there might be some underperformance. I just swapped one of my 176 for a 146 and it looks acceptable to my admittedly low standards.

[apochronaut]

Very early on , up to about 1965 or so, AO catalogued the 147 eyepieces for the original 5 objectives #'s 1075, though 1079 but as the need for planarity came on , they designed the 184. 146 147 eyepieces are a bit more neutral than 176 and 184 in aberration correction and not so planar. They work better with the non plan objectives.

[BadDog]

AO 160mm scope.jpg (141.35 KiB) Viewed 1465 times

Latest addition
I give up on rotating this correctly.
Mainly wanted the trinoc tube.
Now just wondering why I did not notice this is a 160mm scope when chasing the tube.
anyway, starting to clean and inventory and then figure out how to illuminate
and so it goes.