Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

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Charles
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Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#1 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:37 pm

Came across this Spencer 5 this morning. I was ready to jump on it but saw something strange. The condenser didn't seem right. So on closer inspection saw that someone had adapted a Leitz Heine condenser to the Spencer 5. I jumped on it anyway. :D
Spencer 5 Left.jpg
Spencer 5 Left.jpg (161.87 KiB) Viewed 5025 times
Spencer 5 Heine.jpg
Spencer 5 Heine.jpg (137.94 KiB) Viewed 5025 times
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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#2 Post by zzffnn » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:59 pm

Congrats on the nice find!
How did you "came across" it? You already bought/have it and did not see the condenser, or you saw it this morning in an antique store/eBay?

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#3 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:49 pm

I was checking my ebay searches before work and this one came up. It looked strange from the picture the seller posted and looking at the other pictures and description, saw it was a Heine condenser on the Spencer. Should be nice to see how this Heine works on the Spencer. I also have the Leitz PV phase objectives which is used for this condenser and can try out AO 160mm TL phase objectives too.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#4 Post by zzffnn » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:57 pm

Your posted photos made me mistakenly think that you already have it in your hands. Did the seller ask for market price of the Heine condenser? Those photos seem to highlight the condenser and the seller probably knows its value.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#5 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:10 pm

Here is the ebay listing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spencer-AO-No-5 ... true&rt=nc

He listed it as being a Leitz Darkfield condenser, which it can do DF, but it can do a lot more.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#6 Post by zzffnn » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:29 pm

Thank you, Charles. Exactly - Heine can work with any phase objectives, as well as doing DF and COL in one unit.

I don't like phase contrast in general. But if I were to own a phase system, the Leitz PV/Heine would get my pick. It is probably one of the few systems to have enough resolving power for diatoms.

Interesting to see that the seller knows a little bit about microscopes, but not deep enough to know about the Henie. He is probably an antique collector/seller.
Last edited by zzffnn on Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#7 Post by einman » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:30 pm

What a find!!! There is an article on the PSNEELY site where I believe he puts a Leitz Heine on an AO10.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#8 Post by apatientspider » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:35 pm

Oh, man! How come I didn't see that this morning? I'd bet it wasn't posted for more than an hour, if that. I see it has the 10x apochromat on it I've been looking for - as well as a research stage R with controls both sides.

One thing I can see from the sellers's pix - which answers a question for me - is the little right angle shaped stop bracket on top of the coarse focus rack instead of just a screw. Mine has the same thing, and I had been wondering if it was factory or something someone had added later. So now I've seen two #5s with that on them.

In the listing description the sellers states that the iris of the 43x objective seems to be jammed wide open. Apparently he doesn't know that that is not an iris. It's a cover glass correction collar according to the AO Red Book of the 1950's.

The seller also states that the coarse focus is stiff, but that can be adjusted with the two tiny horizontal screws at the top of the arm. But then I suppose you probably know all that, since this is hardly your first Spencer.

Judging from the photos the microscope is in pretty good shape, and you seem to have purchased it at a low price considering. Congrats on a great score. Hope it arrives safely.

Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#9 Post by charlie » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:57 pm

apatientspider wrote:Oh, man! How come I didn't see that this morning?
You have to get up pretty early in the morning (figuratively speaking) to beat some of the veterans around here to a deal! :-)

Great find, again, Charles!

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#10 Post by apatientspider » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:14 pm

charlie wrote:
apatientspider wrote:Oh, man! How come I didn't see that this morning?
You have to get up pretty early in the morning (figuratively speaking) to beat some of the veterans around here to a deal! :-)

Great find, again, Charles!

But....but....but I was up at 4:00 am cst this morning! Of course, when that thing sold about 8:00 am my time I was busy feeding a menagerie of cats.

Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#11 Post by apochronaut » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:49 pm

apatientspider wrote:Oh, man! How come I didn't see that this morning? I'd bet it wasn't posted for more than an hour, if that. I see it has the 10x apochromat on it I've been looking for - as well as a research stage R with controls both sides.

One thing I can see from the sellers's pix - which answers a question for me - is the little right angle shaped stop bracket on top of the coarse focus rack instead of just a screw. Mine has the same thing, and I had been wondering if it was factory or something someone had added later. So now I've seen two #5s with that on them.

In the listing description the sellers states that the iris of the 43x objective seems to be jammed wide open. Apparently he doesn't know that that is not an iris. It's a cover glass correction collar according to the AO Red Book of the 1950's.

The seller also states that the coarse focus is stiff, but that can be adjusted with the two tiny horizontal screws at the top of the arm. But then I suppose you probably know all that, since this is hardly your first Spencer.

Judging from the photos the microscope is in pretty good shape, and you seem to have purchased it at a low price considering. Congrats on a great score. Hope it arrives safely.

Regards,
Jim
Are you referring to the mirror track, that goes through the condenser mounting yoke, JIm?

Very nice find, Charles. Spencer 5s keep coming out of the woodwork. I would think there weren't too many of them left. Quite a few , probably became boat anchors, when reversed microscopes hit big.
I would be interested how the Hensoldt 17X compens work towards the edges of the field. I've only found Baker compens to work with Spencer apochromats, so far. Whoever owned it new what they were doing. They've kept the magnification down within reason.....could have gone a bit farther but then , maybe they didn't need it. 750X with a dry objective is pretty nice.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#12 Post by apatientspider » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:12 pm

apochronaut wrote:
apatientspider wrote:Oh, man! How come I didn't see that this morning? I'd bet it wasn't posted for more than an hour, if that. I see it has the 10x apochromat on it I've been looking for - as well as a research stage R with controls both sides.

One thing I can see from the sellers's pix - which answers a question for me - is the little right angle shaped stop bracket on top of the coarse focus rack instead of just a screw. Mine has the same thing, and I had been wondering if it was factory or something someone had added later. So now I've seen two #5s with that on them.

In the listing description the sellers states that the iris of the 43x objective seems to be jammed wide open. Apparently he doesn't know that that is not an iris. It's a cover glass correction collar according to the AO Red Book of the 1950's.

The seller also states that the coarse focus is stiff, but that can be adjusted with the two tiny horizontal screws at the top of the arm. But then I suppose you probably know all that, since this is hardly your first Spencer.

Judging from the photos the microscope is in pretty good shape, and you seem to have purchased it at a low price considering. Congrats on a great score. Hope it arrives safely.

Regards,
Jim
Are you referring to the mirror track, that goes through the condenser mounting yoke, JIm?

No, not that. What I was talking about is just barely visible in one of the photos of the original listing - not those above. The stop for the microscope's coarse focus is a small right angle bracket, with legs only about 2mm or 3mm long, screwed to the top of the rack. Usually on Spencer microscopes there is only a stop screw with a head large enough in diameter to hit the top of the arm. The bracket here stops the downward travel of the rack before it becomes level with the top of the arm.

Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#13 Post by apochronaut » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:49 pm

Sorry, my mind was probably still on the condenser focus discussion. I see that. Maybe an option? I don't think I've seen that little device referenced but seem to recall seeing it on a stand.
I have come across different lengths of older Spencer apochromats. Three different lengths of 10X .30, 2 different lengths of 20X .65, 3 different lengths of 4mm, .95 and 2 different lengths of 90X 1.30. Those little things might have been in various lengths.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#14 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:33 pm

Thanks all! I guess I was at the right place at the right time.

Jim,

Is this what you are referring to? I've seen it on another scope...maybe one of my 3s.
Spencer 5 Top.jpg
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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#15 Post by apatientspider » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:47 pm

Here's a photo of the same bracket on my #5 - for those who can't see it on the one Charles bought.

On mine it works fine as long as only apos are mounted, but for achromats one almost can't get them close enough to focus. The fine focus has to be cranked nearly all the way down, and older objectives from the 1920's and 30's won't reach at all without spacers.

I've never seen this kind of stop on a Spencer before - not even in catalog pictures. That's why I wondered if it was factory or something someone added. I'm guessing now that it was factory.

Regards,
Jim
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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#16 Post by apatientspider » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:51 pm

Yes, Charles. That's it. I see you have much faster fingers or computer skills than I. :D

Regards,
Jim

PS.
If you want to unload that 10x apo from it, you know who to contact. :mrgreen:

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#17 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:52 pm

Maybe it's specific to that type of head? I think I've seen the same on a 3 or 13 because one was broken off and I was looking for a replacement.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#18 Post by apatientspider » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:04 pm

Charles wrote:Maybe it's specific to that type of head? I think I've seen the same on a 3 or 13 because one was broken off and I was looking for a replacement.
I'm thinking it is specific to any of the scopes ordered with apochromats. If only the screw with the wide head (what do they call that type of screw?) is used - like on my #13, #33, and various other models - it would allow the apos' front elements to reach down through the stage and hit the condenser lens. I suppose that's okay as long as someone who knows what he's doing is using the scope, but for careless students maybe not so much.


Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#19 Post by apochronaut » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:55 pm

JIm. I have a very old almost mint Spencer 10X .30 apochromat I have been thinking of selling. The only problem is it is 38mm, so I am guessing it wouldn't probably work for you. If I had a set I would keep it but I don't and it is unlikely I ever will have. I also have a mint condition 10X .25 brass achromat. It isn't an apo but it is brass and looks the part( although the later Spencer's were gold plated). Just thought I would pass that on.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#20 Post by apatientspider » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:48 am

apochronaut wrote:JIm. I have a very old almost mint Spencer 10X .30 apochromat I have been thinking of selling. The only problem is it is 38mm, so I am guessing it wouldn't probably work for you. If I had a set I would keep it but I don't and it is unlikely I ever will have. I also have a mint condition 10X .25 brass achromat. It isn't an apo but it is brass and looks the part( although the later Spencer's were gold plated). Just thought I would pass that on.

Thanks, Phil.

Do you mean it is 38mm instead of the usual 16mm or do you mean it is 38mm parfocal - or what? I'm not sure what these apos are that I have, but they definitely are not parfocal with any of my achromats from the 1940's. I already have a decent brass 10x achromat I've been thinking of using.

Got a photo handy?

Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#21 Post by KurtM » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:20 am

Ah, Charles strikes again! Man, there's some serious Spencer porn going on here - I can even see its Heine-y. :shock:
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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#22 Post by apochronaut » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:53 am

apatientspider wrote:
apochronaut wrote:JIm. I have a very old almost mint Spencer 10X .30 apochromat I have been thinking of selling. The only problem is it is 38mm, so I am guessing it wouldn't probably work for you. If I had a set I would keep it but I don't and it is unlikely I ever will have. I also have a mint condition 10X .25 brass achromat. It isn't an apo but it is brass and looks the part( although the later Spencer's were gold plated). Just thought I would pass that on.

Thanks, Phil.

Do you mean it is 38mm instead of the usual 16mm or do you mean it is 38mm parfocal - or what? I'm not sure what these apos are that I have, but they definitely are not parfocal with any of my achromats from the 1940's. I already have a decent brass 10x achromat I've been thinking of using.

Got a photo handy?

Regards,
Jim
No, a 10 X has to be more or less 16mm. The magnification can vary somewhat. I have an older Spencer 2mm oil immersion apochromat from the 1920's that is 82X. There are also 85X, later. They settled on 90X because 90 X 15X( eyepiece), which was the preferred higher eyepoint wider angle eyepiece, gave 1350X, or a perfect peak magnification for 1.3 N.A. The objective is 38mm long , from the base of the threads to the tip...probably very close to D.I.N.parfocal, which didn't exist when it was made, if the w.d. is 7mm. The more modern Spencer apos are 5.2mm, so pretty close. I haven't checked it's w.d.
My reading is that the early Spencer apochromats were a Kellner design. He worked for Spencer for a while and mailed them formulas,after he left. After the war(1) B&L started in with their own apochromats, probably due to having sold Zeiss designs pre-war and also because they were the enemy during the war. Kellner had taken up residency at B&L after leaving Spencer, with a brief hiatus back in Germany, so B&L's domestic foray into apochromats after w.w.I, were likely Kellner's and there might have been a conflict there. About that same time, Spencer , for some undisclosed reason developed their own in house apochromats, which are basically the same ones that they sold with minor tweaks, for the next 40+ years.

I am gone for about 36 hours now. Please chime in. I'll pick it up on Sunday.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#23 Post by apatientspider » Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:44 pm

I measured the length of the apos I already have by eyeballing them against a metric ruler, and they seem to hover around 34mm long from thread base to tip approximately. That is considerably shorter than the 38mm yours is, so they probably wouldn't get along well together on the same nosepiece.

Just how old is that one you have? I looked through several of the Spencer catalogs going all the way back to 1924 and the 10x apos don't seem to differ much from each other over the years, if working distance is any guide. Does yours have knurling around the thread base, or is it older than that? I have a really old 20x achromat that was made before the knurling was added - (still in good shape, too.)

I put my older brass 10x achromat with a thin spacer on the #5. It isn't too far off being parfocal with the apos and certainly looks better than the chrome plated, divisible one that was on there. It's a good lens considering how old it must be and should do until I find an apochromat to replace it.

Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#24 Post by apochronaut » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:36 am

It's pretty old but in excellent shape. pre w.w.I for sure.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#25 Post by apatientspider » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:03 am

I thank you for the offer, Phil, but I think I'll wait for what should be on the scope. Something will turn up eventually - always does.

Regards,
Jim

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#26 Post by zzffnn » Sun May 08, 2016 12:11 am

Charles,

Please kindly comment on using the Leitz Heine condenser for COL.

I have read conflicting views:
1) some said its light cone is too narrow for sufficient light, while
2) some produced very nice COL images.

I have done some relevant experiments. I found that when light output is not enough, COL would look like condenser iris closed down too much (too much shadow, especially with thick subjects). In that case, I used a regular (non-internal reflecting) condenser with masks/stops of different sizes and a 40w LED (running at 40w). That supports view (1), as most of my light output is blocked by stops. Blocking half of condenser bottom light entrance made images worse.

But, when I used a darkfield 1.2/1.4 (paraboloid internal reflecting type) darkfield condenser with a NA 1.3 90x objective, I got beautiful COL images. Blocking half of condenser bottom light entrance gave more 3D look and contrast, without bad shadows. That supports view (2), since internal reflecting condensers (including Heine) may be able to concentrate sufficient light into a narrow light cone.

Please let me know your experience. Thank you.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#27 Post by Rylander » Sun May 08, 2016 6:06 am

Hi zzffnn

Ian Walker has written an article about Wild M20 and Hiene condenser, and he is very excited about what it can.
www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artsep09/p ... EINE.html‎
Rylander

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#28 Post by zzffnn » Sun May 08, 2016 1:31 pm

Rylander wrote:Hi zzffnn

Ian Walker has written an article about Wild M20 and Hiene condenser, and he is very excited about what it can.
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... EINE.html‎
Rylander
Thank you. I had read that article by Paul James before. I respect the writer, but it was a 8 year old article, with a low quality, low NA 0.75 and overtly dark photo (granted cameras at the time were not good and there were probably no high power LEDs). He said Heine works up to NA 1.4. But if NA 1.4 looks as dark as the photo he published, I won't be happy, with today's gear.

That darkness in his photo might be caused by insufficient light (or his personal preference/adjustment), which is exactly what I worried about. I don't want to spend >$300 on a Heine to find out that I do not like it.

As well, I had read article from one of the Walker brothers, who was actually not too happy with it (Walker prefers the even more rare Reichert Polyphos condenser, saying that Heine light cone is too narrow for sufficient COL lighting). That was why I said I read conflicting views about the Heine and want to hear more personal experience.
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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#29 Post by gekko » Sun May 08, 2016 1:53 pm

Congratulations, Charles. Good eye and good acquisition.

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Re: Spencer 5 with Heine Condenser

#30 Post by Rylander » Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Hi Charles
I have probably a luxury problem, because I have both types condensor, but not the time to test them properly, family and work takes time. I have a Zetopan to Polyphos condensor, and it is not always easy to use, you should be aware if you buy such, that the front lens can be unclear, I have seen two cases of this problem, the only thing you see is little stars. Heine condenser is converted to Wild M20, and again the problem is time. But I hope to one day get the time to test both thoroughly.

Rylander

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