Hi
I am interested in getting started with microscopy.
My primary interest would be in observing and measuring mushroom spores, but also looking at tardigrades and other small critters, plant parts from my yard, etc.
My budget is approx 500-900 USD, depending. I would rather pay a little more upfront and not have to continually buy add-ons. But would like the option to do so later if I want. I would also like something that's decent quality, but also know that with a lot of hobbies, you can get worked-up and fussy about the gear and specs, etc., when in reality learning to use the tools properly is more important.
I have read on mycology websites that Kohler illumination is a must for viewing spores. Is this true? Is it really necessary or just a "nice to have" ? Would a 60x dry objective suffice or is it really necessary to use the 100x with oil immersion?
It also sounds like PLAN objectives are nice. And I'd like a trinocular to add a camera.
I found this: AmScope 40X-1000X Plan Infinity Kohler Laboratory Trinocular Compound Microscope = model T720.
Am I missing something here? This sounds good. But, I've heard people say amscope aren't that good.
Then there's the Swift 380T that I believe Oliver said was a good one in one of his videos about buying a microscope, but I don't see a Kohler option and not sure if that can just be added later. The price is certainly a lot less than the amscope.
Then there are some OMAX models that fall in the same general price range but have read some not so great things about their service, etc.
Some also have a darkfield option. Can that be added on later at some point, and if so, can it be done on all microscopes or only those that explicitly say they can do that?
Do all come with a calibration slide? Do all have measurement things built into the eyepieces?
I'm old enough that I need readers for most up-close things. Is this an issue with microscopes?
I appreciate any tips/insights/answers - want to make sure I get a good microscope that will suit my needs without going overboard on features I won't really need.
Thanks in advance!
A few newbie questions - advice sought
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kblackwell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:40 pm
- Location: Missoula MT
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apochronaut
- Posts: 6345
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
I will try to answer your questions from a perspective of being a newbie at something microscopically every day but also because I have done some mushroom spore microscopy. Not a vocations worth, more a vacations worth but then it's still in my back yard. I don't know another vacation locale.kblackwell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:25 pmHi
I am interested in getting started with microscopy.
My primary interest would be in observing and measuring mushroom spores, but also looking at tardigrades and other small critters, plant parts from my yard, etc.
My budget is approx 500-900 USD, depending. I would rather pay a little more upfront and not have to continually buy add-ons. But would like the option to do so later if I want. I would also like something that's decent quality, but also know that with a lot of hobbies, you can get worked-up and fussy about the gear and specs, etc., when in reality learning to use the tools properly is more important.
I have read on mycology websites that Kohler illumination is a must for viewing spores. Is this true? Is it really necessary or just a "nice to have" ? Would a 60x dry objective suffice or is it really necessary to use the 100x with oil immersion?
It also sounds like PLAN objectives are nice. And I'd like a trinocular to add a camera.
I found this: AmScope 40X-1000X Plan Infinity Kohler Laboratory Trinocular Compound Microscope = model T720.
Am I missing something here? This sounds good. But, I've heard people say amscope aren't that good.
Then there's the Swift 380T that I believe Oliver said was a good one in one of his videos about buying a microscope, but I don't see a Kohler option and not sure if that can just be added later. The price is certainly a lot less than the amscope.
Then there are some OMAX models that fall in the same general price range but have read some not so great things about their service, etc.
Some also have a darkfield option. Can that be added on later at some point, and if so, can it be done on all microscopes or only those that explicitly say they can do that?
Do all come with a calibration slide? Do all have measurement things built into the eyepieces?
I'm old enough that I need readers for most up-close things. Is this an issue with microscopes?
I appreciate any tips/insights/answers - want to make sure I get a good microscope that will suit my needs without going overboard on features I won't really need.
Thanks in advance!
Here are my tips to best start with s serviceable microscope.
1) Identify the use. check : that is done. Spore prints mainly, therefore higher magnification and high resolution detail is required. If not already done, checking with a local or on line mycological organization might provide further details.
2) The budget is determined.
3) Mushroom spores are very small and must be observed at the highest magnification possible in order to see enough detail in order to speciate them. Around 1000X seems to be recommended . A 60X dry objective is possible but you would be crumpling the envelope by limiting your system to the common and average 60X .85 N.A. objective, which would mean your magnification tempered by the availability of adequate eyepiece selections, would top out at probably 600X. N.A. is the specification that determines resolution not magnification , so upping the N.A. of .95, you could expand your magnification to 900X dry, with GOOD W.F. 15X eyepieces. The coverslip thickness gets critical at that N.A. and an adjustable collar for correcting the working distance needs to be on the objective. Although quality imaging at 900X dry is possible, it requires a lot of ducks in a row and oil immersion just puts some of them in place automatically. Going with a 100X oil immersion is economically practicle too, so a better choice than a 60X .95 dry objective. Plan? No real reason why not. A plan 100X is still quite cheap.
If you want DF : high magnification, high resolution DF is only possible with sufficient illumination. Old school microscopes require 100 watts . Led microscopes , probably need 10 watts at least. I don't know much about that but I do know that you can get adequate illumination but poor resolution in DF. Bumping the illumination, bumps the resolution.
You will need Köhler or some version of it.
Measuring reticles don't usually come in eyepieces. Typically you buy a stage micrometer and install and calibrate an eyepiece measuring reticle to it. About 20-40.00 on line for both.
Don't worry about glasses. Usually if you need just magnification, then a microscope makes up for that. For other opthamological issues , eyepieces with a facility to accept prescription eyeglasses exist. They are usually marked with a pair of specs. on them but they must be properly corrected for the scope in question. You can't just buy any old glasses on eyepieces and expect them to be properly corrected for your microscope, even though some are sold on line
I would buy used. Usually , the craftsmanship is better, the price lower and the potential features more.
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kblackwell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:40 pm
- Location: Missoula MT
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Thank you for the information! I really appreciate it. It sounds like 100x immersion would just work better, even with the hassle of oil - I likely would not be doing this on a daily basis, so the cleanup shouldn't be that big an ordeal.
The reticle, do you just put that into one of the eyepieces? Do you just leave it in there forever, or just put it in when needed?
It sounds like I'll be okay re glasses/readers.
I have read about buying used vs new, and have seen a few things online that look like good deals. I'll keep watching. I'm a bit leery of buying used because you never really know what you're getting (unless you go via a reputable service/dealer, and I'm in the boondocks). Plus, it's my impression thus far that even if you get a good, used, high-end one, the add-on/replacement things can get spendy.
As for DF.... is there something specifically I should look for to see if any particular microscope can do it? Like, if it has X, then it's capable of using a DF pop-in (for lack of better term)?
Thanks again!
The reticle, do you just put that into one of the eyepieces? Do you just leave it in there forever, or just put it in when needed?
It sounds like I'll be okay re glasses/readers.
I have read about buying used vs new, and have seen a few things online that look like good deals. I'll keep watching. I'm a bit leery of buying used because you never really know what you're getting (unless you go via a reputable service/dealer, and I'm in the boondocks). Plus, it's my impression thus far that even if you get a good, used, high-end one, the add-on/replacement things can get spendy.
As for DF.... is there something specifically I should look for to see if any particular microscope can do it? Like, if it has X, then it's capable of using a DF pop-in (for lack of better term)?
Thanks again!
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apochronaut
- Posts: 6345
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Best to get a 3rd eyepiece and mount a reticle in it. For some eyepieces there is a focusing version that can focus on the reticle separately, so it is as sharp as the field stop. The 3rd eyepiece goes in and out as needed. Reticles install easily with the precaution that every spec. is visible on that glass plate, so care in cleanliness is important.
Since you want to speciate using spores, DF might not be much of an advantage but if so, you will then need an oil DF condenser not a DF stop because of the high magnification. DF complicates things in your case because of the higher illumination required for oil immersion 100X DF. To do BF spore i.d's. , you will need stains, plus an oil immersion 100X objective and a standard level of illumination of any of the common 3 types : incandescent or halogen 15 to 20 watts, or led , probably 3 watts minimum.
For DF 100X oil with either of the filament illumination types , you all of a sudden need about 5X that amount of light because so little light is captured in DF . The norm is 100 watts.
As indicated , I'm not that savvy when it comes to led illumination because I don't use it that much, certainly not for oil immersion DF . I have heard that 5 watts will do 100X DF with led but I am sceptical. My 3rd eye tells me 10 watts for DF 100X oil immersion with led , possibly more. Maybe someone out there does it and knows. It might depend on how the system is configured too.
The other complication is that for 100X oil immersion DF you must have a way of lowering the N.A. of the objective a certain amount less than it's specification in BF. A standard oil immersion 100X objective has an N.A. of of 1.25 or higher, which is essentially a measure of it's resolution potential. That number needs to be about .2 lower than the minimum N.A. of the DF condenser for DF to establish. There are 3 ways to do that.
1) buy an objective fitted with an adjustable iris diaphragm, that can lower the N.A. for DF and then be increased wide open for BF.
2) buy an objective that can be fitted with a device called a funnel stop, which upon installation lowers the N.A. of the objective a predictable amount. It must be removed for BF. This means threading the objective out and in, each time the funnel is used or removed. I don't think funnel stops are made anymore but they are still commonly available for certain second hand DF systems.
3) diy a reduction diaphragm for the back of the objective or somewhere in the optical path. This can take the form of a precisely sized and centered disc at the back of the objective or an add on iris diaphragm somewhere in the optical path. The disc diaphragm would have to be removed for BF and the iris adjusted accordingly. All objectives have a built in disc diaphragm at the top or back that forms the rear aperture of the objective. On some low power objectives it isn't so obvious because it can just be the threaded setting ring that tightens the back lens in or the objective barrel itself but on higher magnification objectives it is most often a disc installed, usually threaded in. Modifying the size of that rear aperture lowers the N.A. of the objective. On at least one objective mfg., the "funnel stop" was in fact just a slightly smaller rear aperture in a thread in disc.
Obviously, the best and easiest method of the 3 is to purchase a 100X with an iris at the outset. The catch is that iris equipped objectives are expensive. Sometimes a used microscope contains an iris equipped objective. In the past their chief uses were DF and Fluorescence. In the U.S. and Canada there was a vogue in the late 80's into the 1990's and somewhat beyond for live blood analysis using high resolution DF and manufacturers supplied 100 watt microscopes equipped with oil immersion 100X iris equipped objectives. The initial popular model was the 100 watt research B & L Balplan fitted with a 100X Planachro w./iris. but it's dominance in the market was superceded by the Olympus BX 40, often fitted with a 100X Planapo w./iris. The AO 20 and 120, fitted also with a 100X Planachro w./iris were in the mix somewhat but the practice was set up to use a 20/80 split to the trinocular for a T.V. monitor and AO had dropped that in 1962 in favour of a 0/100 split. They brought it back in 1985 for the Diastar but Leica promoted one of the DM models to that market in the 90's ( I don't remember that one too well) : at least that was what happened in Canada. The Nikon Optiphot wasn't a big factor in that particular market but there were obviously some. All were 100 watt halogen. Also a few Axioscop and surprisingly an occasional Axiomat.
Any of those models, plus the Olympus BHS would be used microscopes I would be looking towards that might still retain their original complement of accessories because those live blood analysis scopes just happen to be ideal microscopes for other applications where 100X DF is usefull. Unfortunately those iris equipped 100X objectives are coveted and many mysteriously might have taken legs after those scopes went into disuse.
Since you want to speciate using spores, DF might not be much of an advantage but if so, you will then need an oil DF condenser not a DF stop because of the high magnification. DF complicates things in your case because of the higher illumination required for oil immersion 100X DF. To do BF spore i.d's. , you will need stains, plus an oil immersion 100X objective and a standard level of illumination of any of the common 3 types : incandescent or halogen 15 to 20 watts, or led , probably 3 watts minimum.
For DF 100X oil with either of the filament illumination types , you all of a sudden need about 5X that amount of light because so little light is captured in DF . The norm is 100 watts.
As indicated , I'm not that savvy when it comes to led illumination because I don't use it that much, certainly not for oil immersion DF . I have heard that 5 watts will do 100X DF with led but I am sceptical. My 3rd eye tells me 10 watts for DF 100X oil immersion with led , possibly more. Maybe someone out there does it and knows. It might depend on how the system is configured too.
The other complication is that for 100X oil immersion DF you must have a way of lowering the N.A. of the objective a certain amount less than it's specification in BF. A standard oil immersion 100X objective has an N.A. of of 1.25 or higher, which is essentially a measure of it's resolution potential. That number needs to be about .2 lower than the minimum N.A. of the DF condenser for DF to establish. There are 3 ways to do that.
1) buy an objective fitted with an adjustable iris diaphragm, that can lower the N.A. for DF and then be increased wide open for BF.
2) buy an objective that can be fitted with a device called a funnel stop, which upon installation lowers the N.A. of the objective a predictable amount. It must be removed for BF. This means threading the objective out and in, each time the funnel is used or removed. I don't think funnel stops are made anymore but they are still commonly available for certain second hand DF systems.
3) diy a reduction diaphragm for the back of the objective or somewhere in the optical path. This can take the form of a precisely sized and centered disc at the back of the objective or an add on iris diaphragm somewhere in the optical path. The disc diaphragm would have to be removed for BF and the iris adjusted accordingly. All objectives have a built in disc diaphragm at the top or back that forms the rear aperture of the objective. On some low power objectives it isn't so obvious because it can just be the threaded setting ring that tightens the back lens in or the objective barrel itself but on higher magnification objectives it is most often a disc installed, usually threaded in. Modifying the size of that rear aperture lowers the N.A. of the objective. On at least one objective mfg., the "funnel stop" was in fact just a slightly smaller rear aperture in a thread in disc.
Obviously, the best and easiest method of the 3 is to purchase a 100X with an iris at the outset. The catch is that iris equipped objectives are expensive. Sometimes a used microscope contains an iris equipped objective. In the past their chief uses were DF and Fluorescence. In the U.S. and Canada there was a vogue in the late 80's into the 1990's and somewhat beyond for live blood analysis using high resolution DF and manufacturers supplied 100 watt microscopes equipped with oil immersion 100X iris equipped objectives. The initial popular model was the 100 watt research B & L Balplan fitted with a 100X Planachro w./iris. but it's dominance in the market was superceded by the Olympus BX 40, often fitted with a 100X Planapo w./iris. The AO 20 and 120, fitted also with a 100X Planachro w./iris were in the mix somewhat but the practice was set up to use a 20/80 split to the trinocular for a T.V. monitor and AO had dropped that in 1962 in favour of a 0/100 split. They brought it back in 1985 for the Diastar but Leica promoted one of the DM models to that market in the 90's ( I don't remember that one too well) : at least that was what happened in Canada. The Nikon Optiphot wasn't a big factor in that particular market but there were obviously some. All were 100 watt halogen. Also a few Axioscop and surprisingly an occasional Axiomat.
Any of those models, plus the Olympus BHS would be used microscopes I would be looking towards that might still retain their original complement of accessories because those live blood analysis scopes just happen to be ideal microscopes for other applications where 100X DF is usefull. Unfortunately those iris equipped 100X objectives are coveted and many mysteriously might have taken legs after those scopes went into disuse.
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Hi, kblackwell (OP), and apo. Kblackwell..please 'google' : "Mushroom, the journal of wild mushrooming"...lots of content regards to ID..and lots more!
This journal...I may still have their issue devoted to :'using the compound microscope in mushroom ID'...if I have it..I can mail you copies of the microscope article.
Very low cost on eBay..I purchased eyepieces with the reticle in the eye piece...think about this rather than messing with your microscopes eyepieces to insert this measure device.
Although it was years ago..very low cost I purchased ( Wards Biological supply house)..stage micrometer slide..about $15 USD. This, and your 'dedicated reticle eyepiece' permits you to : "calibrate each one of your microscope objectives...
including your 100X oil-immersion objective "...with this list on an index card..you need only use your eyepiece reticle to measure spore dimensions. The fun/ the skill is thus being able ( based on spore size) distinguoish fungi species.
Active mycology groups embrace your interest in microscopy for fungi..but you 'must' visit the website: "Mushroom, the journal of wild mushrooming"..IMHO!
No need for dark field microscopy..a crisp optical brightfield scope ( BF illumination method) with a good 100X oil-immersion lens ( of course Kohler illumination)..permits spore microscopy. Achromatic optics fine..you are keenly
measuring spore dimensions..no need for: 'colors that pop' apochromatic optics...spore colors in the 'gills of mushrooms change ' as these mushrooms mature...it's field biology, macroscopic anatomy...mushroom biology which collectors
( like bird watching enthusiasts) embrace.
All the best, charlie g...and of course I have trinocular head , finite optics working setups I need to part with...happy earthday all.
This journal...I may still have their issue devoted to :'using the compound microscope in mushroom ID'...if I have it..I can mail you copies of the microscope article.
Very low cost on eBay..I purchased eyepieces with the reticle in the eye piece...think about this rather than messing with your microscopes eyepieces to insert this measure device.
Although it was years ago..very low cost I purchased ( Wards Biological supply house)..stage micrometer slide..about $15 USD. This, and your 'dedicated reticle eyepiece' permits you to : "calibrate each one of your microscope objectives...
including your 100X oil-immersion objective "...with this list on an index card..you need only use your eyepiece reticle to measure spore dimensions. The fun/ the skill is thus being able ( based on spore size) distinguoish fungi species.
Active mycology groups embrace your interest in microscopy for fungi..but you 'must' visit the website: "Mushroom, the journal of wild mushrooming"..IMHO!
No need for dark field microscopy..a crisp optical brightfield scope ( BF illumination method) with a good 100X oil-immersion lens ( of course Kohler illumination)..permits spore microscopy. Achromatic optics fine..you are keenly
measuring spore dimensions..no need for: 'colors that pop' apochromatic optics...spore colors in the 'gills of mushrooms change ' as these mushrooms mature...it's field biology, macroscopic anatomy...mushroom biology which collectors
( like bird watching enthusiasts) embrace.
All the best, charlie g...and of course I have trinocular head , finite optics working setups I need to part with...happy earthday all.
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kblackwell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:40 pm
- Location: Missoula MT
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Hi,
Thanks for the replies!
I have looked a bit at the used Nikon/Olympus. It seems like Yeah, I could probably get a used one of those for less than a brand new "lesser" brand, but would have to cross my fingers, then blow hundreds more on add-on bits to get the features I'm after. It's not like I'm a pro or in a field where this would be a tool of my livelihood, so for this time in my journey it's likely not that important that I get the absolute best name brand everything. The 80/20 thing. So, I'll probably hold off on getting anything at the moment, keep watching sale items, and yes, will look into the mycology book reference. I have joined a local mycology group, and hope that at some point soon will be able to consult with them on all this. DF probably isn't something truly that important to me right now, at least for what I believe my actual use will be. Maybe some day though....
Thanks for the replies!
I have looked a bit at the used Nikon/Olympus. It seems like Yeah, I could probably get a used one of those for less than a brand new "lesser" brand, but would have to cross my fingers, then blow hundreds more on add-on bits to get the features I'm after. It's not like I'm a pro or in a field where this would be a tool of my livelihood, so for this time in my journey it's likely not that important that I get the absolute best name brand everything. The 80/20 thing. So, I'll probably hold off on getting anything at the moment, keep watching sale items, and yes, will look into the mycology book reference. I have joined a local mycology group, and hope that at some point soon will be able to consult with them on all this. DF probably isn't something truly that important to me right now, at least for what I believe my actual use will be. Maybe some day though....
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kblackwell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:40 pm
- Location: Missoula MT
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Quick followup question - if you get a DF microscope, that basically just means that it comes with a DF condenser, and you can use it without the DF condenser as a BF, yes?
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Hi, kblackwell, as apochronaught/phil has posted many times..it is with your higher magnification/ higher NA objectives that you require a 'dedicated dark field condenser'..and adjustable iris in the objective optic itself.
With lower magnification/ lower NA objectives you can DIY fabricate opaque discs to place atop your regular bright field (BF) condenser ...discs for each magnification of objective.
Apochronaught delves into details of why dedicated DF setups ( proper DF condenser+proper high mag. objective with an iris)...offer rich microscopy of smaller targets.
Mycology use of high magnification/ high NA objectives crucially entails use of eyepiece reticule scale..a scale calibrated for each microscope objective...by use of a 'stage micrometer slide'. For this mycology work, BF illumination is fine.
A 'DF microscope' depends on what a seller deams a 'DF microscope'....my workhorse stand offers: BF, DF ( to err..probably 40X objective), DL phase 10X, 20X, 40X, 60X, 100X oil-)..4X DF great, 10X DF great..but 10X phase better ( due the objective I use for this..a 10X flour objective)...on a quintuple nose-turrent of objectives..you place five objectives for the observation tasks you have in mind.
If you are not satisfied with DIY DF in low mag objectives..in a microscope with BF condenser..hold off on purchasing 'dark field microscope'..look for a second hand BF/DF/ phase contrast microscope..IMHO.
all the best, charlie g
With lower magnification/ lower NA objectives you can DIY fabricate opaque discs to place atop your regular bright field (BF) condenser ...discs for each magnification of objective.
Apochronaught delves into details of why dedicated DF setups ( proper DF condenser+proper high mag. objective with an iris)...offer rich microscopy of smaller targets.
Mycology use of high magnification/ high NA objectives crucially entails use of eyepiece reticule scale..a scale calibrated for each microscope objective...by use of a 'stage micrometer slide'. For this mycology work, BF illumination is fine.
A 'DF microscope' depends on what a seller deams a 'DF microscope'....my workhorse stand offers: BF, DF ( to err..probably 40X objective), DL phase 10X, 20X, 40X, 60X, 100X oil-)..4X DF great, 10X DF great..but 10X phase better ( due the objective I use for this..a 10X flour objective)...on a quintuple nose-turrent of objectives..you place five objectives for the observation tasks you have in mind.
If you are not satisfied with DIY DF in low mag objectives..in a microscope with BF condenser..hold off on purchasing 'dark field microscope'..look for a second hand BF/DF/ phase contrast microscope..IMHO.
all the best, charlie g
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
kblackwell..still in our 'active topics' collection of threads..please visit 4/11/24 thread, by garyjm: "Dark Field Illumination"...very specific info on DF microscopy..apochonaught/phil clearly explains DF microscopy.
Last edited by charlie g on Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kblackwell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:40 pm
- Location: Missoula MT
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
thanks, I'll send you a pm
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
yup..I recieved your PM...but my reply message to you simply 'does not fly'..what's up with this ? all the best, to all. charlie g
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kblackwell
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:40 pm
- Location: Missoula MT
Re: A few newbie questions - advice sought
Hmmm. IDK, I was able to read your pm reply fine, and am looking for the link you refer to
Thanks
Thanks