Is this normal?

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Plasmid
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Is this normal?

#1 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:37 pm

I contacted the manufacturer and after speaking with a rep they stated that the stage dropping is normal. I've taken apart the fine focus adjustment and everything appears to be greased, I've also taken apart the back plate assembly to see if anything needed to be tensioned but nothing so far. Im guiding myself from the previous repairs I had to do on my Microstar IV but I realized that is a whole different mechanism. The slipping of the fine focus does not affect the image quality too greatly but it is annoying. The video below shows what I'm talking about.
Thank you.
Last edited by Plasmid on Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Is this normal?

#2 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:58 pm

They're BS'ijg you. That's clearly not acceptable imo.

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micro
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Re: Is this normal?

#3 Post by micro » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:04 pm

Not normal

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Re: Is this normal?

#4 Post by Chris Dee » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:29 pm

Definitely not normal, and if that passed QC it says a lot about the manufacturer..

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Re: Is this normal?

#5 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:55 pm

What could be the cause of this? I feel like it may be on the internal rear part and not the focus cam , maybe a spring or washer of some sorts ?

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Re: Is this normal?

#6 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:20 pm

Cripes! If they told you that's normal they should hang their heads in shame - they are being ridiculous.
Is it possible to return for a refund?
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Re: Is this normal?

#7 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:42 pm

mrsonchus wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:20 pm
Cripes! If they told you that's normal they should hang their heads in shame - they are being ridiculous.
Is it possible to return for a refund?
I don't think those are within the realm of possibility, so at this point the only option is to fix it myself or have a technician actually take it apart. I haven't been able to find anything similar to what could be causing this problem on some of this forums.my theory is that there might be a spring or some type of compression nut that holds part of the weight of the whole stage to prevent it from falling and that might need to be replaced. This mechanical issue does not affect the microscope all that much as the parfocality allows me to switch from 4X to 100x but just turning the fine focus knob a few turns after locking the tension knob.
Last edited by Plasmid on Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this normal?

#8 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:30 pm

Who did you get it from?

apochronaut
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Re: Is this normal?

#9 Post by apochronaut » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:34 pm

Many of those types of mechanisms have a clutch that tightens with counter rotation of the opposing sides; usually clockwise. It can just as easily be accidentally loosened. Have you tried tightening the knobs . You will feel the mechanism tighten.

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Re: Is this normal?

#10 Post by Greg Howald » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:25 pm

Tension definitely too loose. You can try tightening by the counter revolution of the coarse knobs as described above, OR is one shaft on the focus knob a little longer than on the other side? Is there a hole in the shaft?. If so, do you have a tensioning spanner or any kind of jewelers screwdriver that will fit in the hole? Holding the focus knob on the opposite side of the scope, rotating the shaft in one direction will tighten tension. The other direction will loosen tension. Figure out which way to go and adjust tension so that it is suitable.
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Re: Is this normal?

#11 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:27 pm

I dont think this is the counter rotating type, the fine coarse is basically two identical knobs with a rod that goes through the coarse focus, each of the fine focus knobs has a small gear attached to the inside which interfaces with 3 larger gears on the coarse fucus ( just on the left side) the right is just a straight shaft, there are two identical screws that hold the fine cores focus knob to the rod on each side externally.

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Re: Is this normal?

#12 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:34 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:34 pm
Many of those types of mechanisms have a clutch that tightens with counter rotation of the opposing sides; usually clockwise. It can just as easily be accidentally loosened. Have you tried tightening the knobs . You will feel the mechanism tighten.
Hi Apochronaut, I'll post a couple if pictures when I get home in the am, thank you for the help.

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Re: Is this normal?

#13 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:36 pm

IMPORTANT

Try Greg's suggestion FIRST - as if this is the way the 'scope's rack-tension is altered, the counter-turning method may well damage the mechanism...
As said the little hole (if it exists) and slightly longer shaft or extra spacing between knob and rack on one side will be obvious.
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Re: Is this normal?

#14 Post by Plasmid » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:49 pm

Ahh just saw Greg's message for some reason it wasn't loading on my side, will definitely try that in the morning, there is room in between the locking ring and the coarse focus but I dont think enough for a tool to fit through.

I've looked for the schematics online but so far no luck, all I can find is a very basic manual on basic functions. Apparently Seiler used the same mechanism for the their Westlab III, Microlux IX and really anything on their new catalog.
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Re: Is this normal?

#15 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:09 am

Hmm the inner ring (closest to the body) looks like a tension adjuster - my Olympus BX50 has one like this. However if the ring also has a 'tab' on it it is a focus-lock to set the maximum distance the objective may be moved toward the slide - to help prevent any crashing into slides.... No-such tab just plain ring all the way round - it's very likely the tension-adjustment - try tightening it (by hand) and see if your stage stops dropping! The BX50 has the tabbed locking ring one side and the plain focus-stopper the other which is like the one in your image....
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Re: Is this normal?

#16 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:16 am

Yes that is indeed the tension or locking ring I guess. The stage height on this one is by a set screw on the top of the rail, the locking ring does work when you tighten it and it prevents the stage from dropping, but the fine coarse still moves, no tab on this one.
https://youtu.be/Qg78SovGVZQ

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Re: Is this normal?

#17 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:28 am

I wonder if the fine-focus has a 'maximum travel' and it may be close to it? It may explain the tendency to move, which seemed reduced as to runed it to a different position before stopping. Maybe there's an optimal 'starting position' for fine focus in the middle of any range of vovement it may have? I often wonder how the fine focus on my BX 50 is able to simply keep on moving.... I haven't the nerve to try turning it until it perhaps stops - or breaks....

As you turned it clockwise it seemes less inclined to move on it's own - how about CAREFULLY trying several clockwise turns of the fine focus then seeing how it moves or if it stops... May be worth a non-destructive try? Maybe you're getting closer to the 'mid-range' as you go clockwise, and someone has previously 'maxed-out' the fine-focus in one direction?
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Re: Is this normal?

#18 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:41 am

mrsonchus wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:28 am
I wonder if the fine-focus has a 'maximum travel' and it may be close to it? It may explain the tendency to move, which seemed reduced as to runed it to a different position before stopping.

The travel on the fine focus is finite but only as you hit the maximum amount of travel of the stage on the max down position other than that is Infinite, its probably because the stage can move no more,. I tried focusing with the 10X objective using the coarse focus only, and then rotating the fine multiple turns to find out if indeed there was a limit, but nothing, it seems like you can turn the fine course infinitely on either direction, something that is not the case on my Microstar IV. On the video you can see that the fine focus moves a bit after focusing, this can also be replicated by putting a slight amount of downward pressure on the stage but up to a point as then it stops. On the other hand, slightly lifting the stage with your finger diminishes this effect.

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Re: Is this normal?

#19 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:53 am

Hmm, that last line sounds like it may be connected with grease? I wonder if the fine-focus stability relies not upon tension but the viscosity of a grease which may cause this symptom? Someone here must have an insight into this as many here are very skilled engineers and renovators... My experience is as a user rather than restoration, which is the context of my reasoning and suggestions....
Do you have a model name or number for the 'scope which may lead to a manual online? Alternatively how about a search re microscope stage focus mechanisms in general - they very likely share essential details or principles at least contemporarily?
Last edited by mrsonchus on Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this normal?

#20 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:10 am

Funny you mentioned that, the grease that has in it is very viscous, Im talking maple syrup viscous just clear in fact you can hear it at times.. The manufacturer dosent list specific schematics for it. https://www.seilermicro.com/products/me ... crolux-iv/

The mechanism does show some resemblance to some Leitz or Leica systems not sure if related.

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Re: Is this normal?

#21 Post by 75RR » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:36 am

.
From the manual at the site you linked: https://www.seilermicro.com/wp-content/ ... 18indd.pdf

"The tension adjustment ring B12 can adjust the tension of the coarse and fine focusing unit to pre-vent the stage from sliding down automatically and to improve the comfort of operation.
Rotate clockwise to decrease tension, rotate counter-clockwise to increase tension.•
Don’t turn left and right coarse and fine focusing knobs in different directions with power at the same time, if so, the focusing system will be damaged."
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Re: Is this normal?

#22 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:52 am

75RR Im so happy you pointed that out, so those that mean that its normal for the stage to drop in this particular mechanism?

"The tension adjustment ring B12 can adjust the tension of the coarse and fine focusing unit to pre-vent the stage from sliding down automatically and to improve the comfort of operation."

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Re: Is this normal?

#23 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:14 am

Partial disassembly, like a member mentioned previously grease might play a part on this issue, the one that is on it is very very sticky.
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Single wave spring washer can be seen
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The fine focus rod is visible in the middle before pulling it out from the other side, a single metric bolt attaches the fine focus knob to the rod on both sides
The fine focus rod is visible in the middle before pulling it out from the other side, a single metric bolt attaches the fine focus knob to the rod on both sides
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Re: Is this normal?

#24 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:32 am

Great images, now I perused an article earlier - have a look at this link - a complete teardown of such a mechanism!......

I'm pretty sure you're on your way with some progress - just be very careful and make sure you have suitable tools - buy a few if you need to - we all tend to build-up a 'mini tool kit' as we go....
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Re: Is this normal?

#25 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:08 pm

mrsonchus wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:32 am
Great images, now I perused an article earlier - have a look at this link - a complete teardown of such a mechanism!......

Thank you, that looks exactly like the mechanism on mine. Hopefully cleaning and regreasing the fine focus gears will yield some results l, as the complete tear down is quite a job.

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Re: Is this normal?

#26 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:27 pm

Oh yes - certainly forget the complete tear-down, just concentrate carefully on the mechanism in question - good luck!
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Re: Is this normal?

#27 Post by hans » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:26 pm

Just to clarify first, from your video it looks like the coarse friction adjustment is working fine -- you tightened it and the coarse focus stopped slipping? So the problem is the friction of the fine focus relative to the coarse focus?
Plasmid wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:14 am
Partial disassembly, like a member mentioned previously grease might play a part on this issue, the one that is on it is very very sticky.
From the photos, particularly the one captioned "Single wave spring washer can be seen" it looks like a similar design as the Microstar IV where the friction of the fine relative to coarse focus is set by that spring washer. Perhaps bending it a bit more to increase friction is all you need to do?

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Re: Is this normal?

#28 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:51 pm

Agree with Hans - it's like a thrust-plate on a clutch - grease is recommended to be as thin as you can get for the fine focus I think - thick grease is for the coarse focus. Friction from spring/spring-washers may be the braking mediator for the fine focus.
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Re: Is this normal?

#29 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:56 pm

Good news everyone, problem has been fixed, after getting in touch with the Tech at Seiler it turns out the fix was very simple, unsurprisingly just like fixing a TV back in the 60's and 70's all it required was smacking it in the back. :D Jk it turns out that bending the tension washer on the right side fixed the problem 100%, over time the washer lost its tension and just needed a bit of retentioning.


I did kind of strip the bolt that holds it together, not to the point of being unusable but is definitely something that I'll have to replace.
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Re: Is this normal?

#30 Post by Plasmid » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:57 pm

hans wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:26 pm
Just to clarify first, from your video it looks like the coarse friction adjustment is working fine -- you tightened it and the coarse focus stopped slipping? So the problem is the friction of the fine focus relative to the coarse focus?
Plasmid wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:14 am
Partial disassembly, like a member mentioned previously grease might play a part on this issue, the one that is on it is very very sticky.
From the photos, particularly the one captioned "Single wave spring washer can be seen" it looks like a similar design as the Microstar IV where the friction of the fine relative to coarse focus is set by that spring washer. Perhaps bending it a bit more to increase friction is all you need to do?
Hans you are 100% correct just saw this as i was posting an update, thank you

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