Help to decode my objectives specifications Thanks

[Oz_Moonstone]

Hi all Tony here
I have a microscope application I need to master to a resonable level involving identifyng Koi fish parisites to keep them healthy. The fish not the parisites lol
My wife kindly saw my desire to buy a microscope I was in the process of researching the best one for the job with out breaking the bank. She kind of jumped in ahead of me and splashed out and purchased a Celestron LCD digital Microscope 2 (model #44341) for xmas with trusting the sales persons advice as to my fishes needs gulp! So you can see I need to try make this microscope work. So far microscope works pretty well.

Well it is worth approx $500 so not a cheapy unit but can I make it work to see 1o microns creatures. I think Iam seeing the smaller parisites approximatly 10 micron approx at x400 optical. But I cant quite see the wiggling arms swim folicales in enough detail to id them more easialy as some look similar and they dont line up and sit still like in still photo graphs of the parisites. I ordered a stage microscope 0.1mm slide to try calibrate what i am seeing it hasnt arived yet.

I am thinking I need to upgrade to a very good quality x60 objective as an amatures first possible soloution or is there another way? ( There is the digital screen siting over the nose so I might have first tried simply using a 20x eye piece on a regular microscope. ps it does have 4 x digital zoom but that is only image enlargment with no extra details gained, in fact the more you enlage a digital picture the more blocky the image gets so you lose detail.)

So if the best plan is buy a X60 objective to be compatable with the current specification as listed on Celestrons website for model #44341 objective is as follows. If you can guide me towards a very good $200? objective to enhance my mircoscopes abilities slightly. Celestron Says" Objectives Standard DIN 35 RMS Thread wj4/5" x `1/36" Is this a standard"common thread size etc"?

So what type of objective type is best etc any information thing would be a great help. I know dry type is best here, Achromat? Plan? APo? I am looking for clearest image at X60 (x60 x10 = 600X total)

Thanks for looking and your thoughts

[BramHuntingNematodes]

If you really want to is the very very smol an immersion lens might be good. A 60x na1.4 planapo is an extremely powerful lens. Just plan in immersion will get you more detail and be less finicky than a high dry.

[Oz_Moonstone]

Thanks kindly BRAMHUNTINGNEMATODES for your suggestion I definatly have taken that idea 100% on board and will start building my knowledge to fully explore your suggestion.


post note: A drop of water is one crazy world , A miniture universe for little creatures,
The truth is as a newbie I recognise i am still not sure what I am seeing is possible fish parisites but mayber smaller ? It is possible I dont have any target parisites in the water sample at all and i am looking to smaller and smaller water life where dose this all stop lol.
I am realistic at least I am not trying to see really small stuff like bacteria with my gear.

Well I have work to do
1. more practice at pond water slides. Creature IDs
2 research more about my objective standards to try match a x60oil
3 follow up BRAMHUNTINGNEMATODES path suggestion.
Regards Tony I hope to reply sooner with more experiance under my belt

[Placozoa]

I am quite inexperienced, there are many people on here that can answer this better than me, but I will give it a shot.

I faced the same same decision you are facing and I purchased a 60x low N.A. objective and also a 60x high N.A. objective. The image on the two is kind of similar, and the working distance is terrible on the high N.A. objective. Neither of them help in the slightest bit with identifying anything, to be honest. I can see the shape of bacteria with them, but you are likely identifying ciliophores from alveolata and similarly sized chilodonella from conthreep, which is a subset of alveolata.

These I mostly identify from using optical techniques such as turning the iris really small, setting the focus on the condenser just right, putting a darkfield stop behind the phosphors just above my LED light source and sliding it over to get an oblique from one side, using the edge of my filter rack as another oblique stop from the other side at the same time, etc. etc. When I get it right I can see the cilia on some things, and this tells me a lot. I dont actually need to magnify beyond 100x (10x objective) to do this. Other clues I get are from the structure of the body, which is easy to see, and the shape of the body which is even easier. Another good clue is how they move. If they arent squished flat under a coverslip, you can tell at a glance whether something is a flagellate or a rotifer or a ciliate just by how it moves. Kind of getting side tracked here...

Oomycetes are nasty little parasites, Identifying those (like bacteria) is impossible no matter how fancy your microscope is, but I can see oomycetes infect a rotifer at 100x, and from what they are infecting I know more or less what family/species they are.

Basically, my point is that you could get DIC for several thousand dollars (used), pin the ciliate down under a 100x objective or 60x objective and clearly see the cilia moving around and probably (maybe?) identify something based on a single picture with some success. But a more practical way is just to learn and become familiar with your koi ecosystem by watching under the scope, watching videos from the net on microcosmos critters and on microscope focus planes and techniques, and pairing that with reading up on the taxonomy of the alveolata.

Ps. This answer is terrible, sorry...

[hans]

It looks like that model Celestron 44341 does not have a condenser so it may not be easy to get the full performance of a better-corrected, higher-NA objective.

[Oz_Moonstone]

Hi back a gain a little more wiser thanks to your ideas BramHuntingNematodes Hans, Placozoa

Any how exploring " BramHuntingNematodes ' idea which definatly is on the right path replacing the objective. But what Objective the correct specification for Celestron printed user guide dose not specifiy their choice of objectives that comes with microscope so I looked up Celestron 44341 online and wrote down the specifice objectives used for my microscope but this was completly wrong as fars a I can tell as I ordered from Amscope a
RMS Object Plan Achromatic Corrections 60x NA 0.85 tube 160 cover glass 0.17 " Plan" I didnt know what type of objectives existed and why, I do now understand the aboration corrections much more after watching Olivers Youtubes.

The Celestron ( LCD Digital Microscope 2) has the smaller diameter bjectives 14mm approxiatly screw threads normal objective wont fit dang! These lenses are basically low grade smaller diameter kid/student lens as far as I can tell hollow and possibly single glass lens. Now I look through the Celestron microscope I can see the colour aborations etc I ignored before. Ignorance is truly bliss. Hans is right no condenser, celestron only has a disc with aperature holes and 3 colour filters which as seamimly not effective at clarifiying images. I will admit I never owned a microscope with a Condenser so I am yet to learn of its full functionalitly and roll.

So The Celestron[ LCD Digital Microscope 2 Is a high quality kids/ student mircoscope of some high value but as far as I can tell wont except standard objective sizes and limiting the microscopes potential. Now I am not completly writing off the Celestron as I recently watched through it a microbe 20 microns wide and it was clammering around a sand partical like a rock climber I could see its fine legs working on one edge I saw a similar species in a you tube but lost its name now.( I think I read the smallest KOi parisite is 2 microns. )It was cool to watch and image quality was quite good dispite the image edge aborations. But the risk of Microscopy is I have being seeing smaller creatures than that have being taunting my intrests smaller than 20 micron microbe the desire to know what they are is driving desire for my equipment and knowledge enhancment. What next seeing atoms join??? lol No I am realistic And Placozoa s take on dark field is definalty interesting and reasonably inexpensive to do to highlght more of the microbes identifying features.

So the quality Plan Achromatic I bought is useless on the Celestron Microscope.

I enjoying The Microbehunter youtubes and the clarity and quality of the Swift SW380T, The fine focus control and clarity of subjects where great. So I have to break this to my wife yet I placed a SW380T on order so I do not have to try reinvent the Celestron LCD Digital 2 I also ordered the smart phone holder so I still can take pictures and videos of microbes. I can event mount many options like my older SLR camera on it (but LCD screen is tiny on the camera and no video capacity so not ideal)

So the swift is very flexable as far as I can see and over kill my Koi parisite Identification needs but it will allow me to gain a deeper appreiation of our micro world and the more complex life in the koi pond in addition to koi fish World. Easy to do darkfield after I learn to use condenser effectivly.

Oliver took his oil immersion x100 off his SW380T as it was messy and of limited use to his needs. Well that looks like a very good plan given I have a new x60 Object Plan Achromatic sitting around now collecting dust. like Placozoa says the extra magnification may not be required if I learn some more techniques and I have being learning how to make better wet slides too.

Well thanks for your advices BramHuntingNematodes Hans, Placozoa

[BramHuntingNematodes]

Oh neat. I hope that works lots of folks around have that swift and I haven't heard many complaints, if any.

My plan lenses such as they are are on a seventies Dynazoom which was a tricky setup that took a few weeks to understand and longer to get working properly. There are certainly benefits to new scopes.

[MicroBob]

Hi Tony,
the Celestron microscope looks very much like a better toy microscope I once bought from ALDI food discounter with an added camera and display setup. This microscope was quite good for the small price. The biggest limitation was the lack of a condenser. With the 40:1 objective one only got a low resolution high contrast image as expected with a much too small condenser aperture. After fitting a condenser lens into the aperture wheel below the stage the image quality with the 40:1 was quite ok. I don't know the demands of a koi fisher, but it might allow some useful observations and photo documentation. It could also be used the demonstrate your work to your wife and friends.
Bob

[BramHuntingNematodes]

Alternatively, since you mentioned that another scope.is forthcoming, you can designate the celestron as your staining scope: a lightweight, medium power scope you can observe progressive staining with. The process is a little messy and it is useful to have a dedicated scope set up just for this purpose.

[Oz_Moonstone]

Hi All
Bob I wish i bought the celestron at Aldi it would have cost less I am sure and I dont think I would had the same expectations first up. The Celestron digital 2 microscope cost slightly less than a new swift 380T with out a camera, With the price of the celstron I could ave bought a good c mount camera too on top of the swift. But thats life and I am not grumbling. I am looking into a camera for the swift now. The biggest desicion was how I wanted to used to mircoscope and camera to ID parasites etc. I am now thinking I can buy a good usb 3 camera as usb 3 is x10 faster than usb 2. Then I can view and video capture via the swift 380T on my PC and at the same time view microbe you tubes clips or photos as a side by side comparision.
ID option. As a Plan B I also bought a used copy of that german microbe book as a back up its going to be a pain to translte it I might just look at pictures lol I think a phone app can translate a photograghed print into english too. Book (Das Len im Wassertropfen) which translates as { I see your ugly microbe asses in my glass of water} lol just joking. Bob your suggestion and heart is in the right place thanks. I am in a humourous mood I am but I am just trying to picture my wifes face when i show her a picture of a microbe and say see its worth the expense. Scouring face level one factor. Now for the scouring face maximum level. Maybe I can photo shop a picture of the mother inlaws face photo onto a microbe body and prove to her Darwins theory of evolution.

Interesting Idea BramHuntingNematodes re celestron as a staining microscope for more non living things possibly. I have being practicing staining water samples to help see the translucent water microbes with some limited success todate.
I think get your idea of a staining microscope as some times the stain and water bleeds out and it is hard to clean the slide with out wiping on and adding dirt or wipe marks to fresh slide cover and base. So your suggesting will allow the slightly unclean slide can be viewed with out fear of soiling a good microscope which is what i am thinking first up re your messy reference. But I am thinking of on selling the celestron after i get some more staining practice (cleaning up my slide if possible) to some older teen age family as a killer first microscope.

With my limited early experiance the celestron Microscope I have being using the 1% Methylene Blue and some particals seam stained like pretty glass windows but I am not sure the microbes are being stained at all. I cant see them yet very possible the parasitic microbes are very few in number and not collected in my water samples yet which is ideal for Koi happyness. There is also the possibility of stains killing off living microbes as Methylene Blue is also used in treating fish ailments and parisite control normally in the order of 3 PPM (parts per million in pond water) an other measure 1 drop per gallon (4 litres) so a tiny drop of stain on a slide in 1 drop of water is like 500:1 lethal to microbes I would have said and under the microscope we are looking for movment to see microbes on a lesser magnification more quickly but if they are dead I wont see any tell tail movement. Many more things than water microbes to stain I am only just learning to think about.

Just so people know Ideally most kept koi ponds are kept near sterile/ clean as possible ideally some have sloped floors and a centre drain to take away any waste or dirt. We use two types of nateral bacteria in our filters to convert bad levels of nitrates and nitrites to safe levels for pond life balance. Definatly no pebbles or rocks just the naked tank bottom ie no where for masses of anerobic microbes to hide. No Plants for more harmfull microbes to hide and Plants also impact on the whole nitrogen water cycle did you know plants also consume oxygen out of water at night and on cloudy days? Too many plants can kill fish and deprive oxygen in an aquarium environment where fish numbers can exceed nateral safe limits. The obvious answer is dont over stock your ponds, Also expensive koi fish can be killed with in 24 hours of a parasite population boom. The reality is parisites are always present in some smaller safe numbers and the healthy fish do have nateral defenses and in a nateral river or stream or larger nateral pond nature can find balance with the odd weak fish death. Larger nateral water systems also have more stored oxygen and water between pond species lives which means nateral buffers against more extreme nature swings even rain down pours rapidly alter pH levels. Home ponds need to be as large as a medium swimming pool with rocks on the bottom and plants to build a small nateral buffered fish environments if cared for, If you ever see small nateral ponds with lots of fish its a larger possible diaster waitng to happen ie mass fish kill events re parisites and or water quality . Sorry I digress

I have had better microscope success with the stain Nigrosin Aqueous which is a darker stain that dosnt stain the cells of microbes but acts like a backdrop smoky stain that clear microbes appear against. As the Celseton has optical aberations in the lenses I do see the microbes moving around clearly alive in a smoky background but they are ghost like as they move through the stain and are not identifiable in any way apart from there possible characteristic movment traits of with I am not familiar with yet.
Any how Swift is a few days away yet I bought some overhead projector clear display sheets to try make dark field filters out of for the swift with lens holder I am keen to try after watching Olivers you tube on that interesting subject.

BramHuntingNematodes re your [seventies Dynazoom which was a tricky setup that took a few weeks to understand and longer to get working properly.} I am glad you had enough knowlegde to work through the problem to solve it to your satisfaction. Maybe we should re engineer the Celestron to take a condenser and full full scale RMS objectives. Or thats just too much trouble. I did try and find an thread adaptor but no guarantee optics would have flowed through to camera properly.