Giday, I'm Gavin (from Australia)
I wanted to ask you guys & gals about getting my first scope.
1. I want to be able to look for things in my honey, quality of the queens eggs, Small Hive beetle, hive disorders and general things to do with bees
2. I want to be able to also do cultures and investigate colonies also and bacteria & spores
3. I have always loved entomology and biology and want something that will cover almost all aspects (i realize it's getting hard now)
4. my budget is around the $750 AUD
5. Binocular would be minimum but a camera build in would be fantastic taking video and images eventually would be my ultimate aim
6. I keep fish also so would love to check out water samples etc
7. I want to be able to check for fowl brood (American and European) my self
I have been looking at all sorts of microscopes
Brand like the Am scope, Luminoptic, and many more
I'm so confused and reading about this wonderful hobby I just want to do more and more with it but just have no idea what i need and what i don't need etc
Something like this i started looking at
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321304863716 ... 1423.l2649
then
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AmScope-T490 ... 2598d63ceb
I'm not stuck on these brands just letting you know what I'm looking at any other brands and models ill be gladly willing to accept
a few questions...
1. Do i need a dark field condenser?
2. Do i phase contrast or can a gram stain work just as well?
3. is there anything i need to also be looking at after i get my microscope to do what i want better?
4. i did see some sample images from a guy on flickr using the same scope and he seamed to be using it like a stereo scope ie seeing the outside of the insect in fantastic detail but no light coming through it as such is that possible with that scope or would he be using a stereo?
5. any good books you can recommend to tell me what I'm looking at down the scope?
i don't want a basic scope i want something that will last and i can grow in to and not have to upgrade next week cause i can look at my fish tank water but not a blood sample for example.
my ultimate goal is 2 things 1, bring the Microscopic world to people (bees is a primary focus) and 2 to learn more and more about the world around us
I hope you guys can help me, I'm very keen for your inputs and advice. if you need any more information please let me know.
Thank you all in advance for you advice and help in this topic
Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Hi Gavin,
Only a Bee Keeper would be able to advise you properly on what equipment to get to be able to check for Bee diseases. Do not know if there are any here.
Found these links via google.
They all provide helpful information and have useful links.
http://honeybee.org.au/
http://www.bbka.org.uk/
http://www.abfnet.org/
http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/bee-disease.html
From the Brunel Microscope site it would appear that very simple microscopes are sufficient.
A local Bee Keepers association would be your best bet in terms of equipment choice and perhaps more importantly how to use them and what to look for.
Only a Bee Keeper would be able to advise you properly on what equipment to get to be able to check for Bee diseases. Do not know if there are any here.
Found these links via google.
They all provide helpful information and have useful links.
http://honeybee.org.au/
http://www.bbka.org.uk/
http://www.abfnet.org/
http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/bee-disease.html
From the Brunel Microscope site it would appear that very simple microscopes are sufficient.
A local Bee Keepers association would be your best bet in terms of equipment choice and perhaps more importantly how to use them and what to look for.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Welcome, Gavin! I won't be able to give you a useful reply, as your question is a difficult one to answer, so I hope others will do that. I just have a few disjointed comments: (1) I think it would be good to choose a model that can (later) incorporate phase contrast capability, (2) I may be misremembering, but my understanding (I think one of the forum members gave me that impression) that Microscopenet.com have very good service in different parts of the world (I must add that I have never dealt with them nor do I have any connection with them) so they may be worth considering, (3) I think a microscope with a trinocular head will be much more convenient for taking pictures, and (4) at some point you may want to also consider getting a stereo (dissecting) microscope, and if you intend to take pictures through that, then it would also be wise to consider a trinocular stereo scope.
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Good morning, afternoon, evening, Gavin,
75RR and Mr. Gekko have given some good advice and I would like to share some of my experience.
First, there are two basic groups of microscopes that will cover all of what you want to look at. The compound microscope for pollen, bacteria, parasite eggs, etc., (all things not visible to the naked eye) and the stereo microscope for small visible things like the bee and its parts. Selecting a suitable microscope is more about the specimen than the source of the specimen.
Allergists use the compound microscope (40X objective) to look at stained pollen grains. You could use a phase contrast microscope to bypass the staining.
Entomologists use a stereo microscope to look at the insects. Good entomologists use good microscopes, better entomologists use better microscopes....
To keep my thoughts organized I'll address each of your concerns (my opinion, of course)
1. I want to be able to look for things in my honey, quality of the queens eggs, Small Hive beetle, hive disorders and general things to do with bees
You will need a compound and stereo microscope to do all this.
2. I want to be able to also do cultures and investigate colonies also and bacteria & spores
A compound microscope for this and some staining equipment
3. I have always loved entomology and biology and want something that will cover almost all aspects (i realize it's getting hard now)
You will need a compound and stereo microscope to do all this.
4. my budget is around the $750 AUD
This is the tough part. You may need to choose one scope or the other. IF you get both plan to get better ones in the future
5. Binocular would be minimum but a camera build in would be fantastic taking video and images eventually would be my ultimate aim
I would not get that model. I much prefer the triocular with an accessory camera. Having the camera as a separate entity will give you the option to upgrade easily when you want something better, or (perish the thought) when the built in camera dies... as they seem to do.
6. I keep fish also so would love to check out water samples etc
You will need a compound and stereo microscope to do all this.
Once upon a time, long, long ago, I was the curator of the aquaria at a science center and we used AO equipment
7. I want to be able to check for fowl brood (American and European) my self
With the two styles you can do all that you have mentioned. Special illumination techniques will give you some advantages once you are familiar with the use of each of the scopes.
And your questions.
1. Do i need a dark field condenser?
A phase contrast set will give you dark field capabilities up to 40X
2. Do i phase contrast or can a gram stain work just as well?
The phase set will help with unstained specimens, but staining will reveal different aspects of the specimen, sometimes more clearly.
3. is there anything i need to also be looking at after i get my microscope to do what i want better?
Read as many articles as you have time for and practice with your microscopes.
4. i did see some sample images from a guy on flickr using the same scope and he seamed to be using it like a stereo scope ie seeing the outside of the insect in fantastic detail but no light coming through it as such is that possible with that scope or would he be using a stereo?
The easiest way is to use the stereo but it is possible to use incident (top illumination) with the low powers (4X) on the compound microscope.
5. any good books you can recommend to tell me what I'm looking at down the scope?
Search the web using any key words that interest you
Boy, I wish I typed faster.
lorez
75RR and Mr. Gekko have given some good advice and I would like to share some of my experience.
First, there are two basic groups of microscopes that will cover all of what you want to look at. The compound microscope for pollen, bacteria, parasite eggs, etc., (all things not visible to the naked eye) and the stereo microscope for small visible things like the bee and its parts. Selecting a suitable microscope is more about the specimen than the source of the specimen.
Allergists use the compound microscope (40X objective) to look at stained pollen grains. You could use a phase contrast microscope to bypass the staining.
Entomologists use a stereo microscope to look at the insects. Good entomologists use good microscopes, better entomologists use better microscopes....
To keep my thoughts organized I'll address each of your concerns (my opinion, of course)
1. I want to be able to look for things in my honey, quality of the queens eggs, Small Hive beetle, hive disorders and general things to do with bees
You will need a compound and stereo microscope to do all this.
2. I want to be able to also do cultures and investigate colonies also and bacteria & spores
A compound microscope for this and some staining equipment
3. I have always loved entomology and biology and want something that will cover almost all aspects (i realize it's getting hard now)
You will need a compound and stereo microscope to do all this.
4. my budget is around the $750 AUD
This is the tough part. You may need to choose one scope or the other. IF you get both plan to get better ones in the future
5. Binocular would be minimum but a camera build in would be fantastic taking video and images eventually would be my ultimate aim
I would not get that model. I much prefer the triocular with an accessory camera. Having the camera as a separate entity will give you the option to upgrade easily when you want something better, or (perish the thought) when the built in camera dies... as they seem to do.
6. I keep fish also so would love to check out water samples etc
You will need a compound and stereo microscope to do all this.
Once upon a time, long, long ago, I was the curator of the aquaria at a science center and we used AO equipment
7. I want to be able to check for fowl brood (American and European) my self
With the two styles you can do all that you have mentioned. Special illumination techniques will give you some advantages once you are familiar with the use of each of the scopes.
And your questions.
1. Do i need a dark field condenser?
A phase contrast set will give you dark field capabilities up to 40X
2. Do i phase contrast or can a gram stain work just as well?
The phase set will help with unstained specimens, but staining will reveal different aspects of the specimen, sometimes more clearly.
3. is there anything i need to also be looking at after i get my microscope to do what i want better?
Read as many articles as you have time for and practice with your microscopes.
4. i did see some sample images from a guy on flickr using the same scope and he seamed to be using it like a stereo scope ie seeing the outside of the insect in fantastic detail but no light coming through it as such is that possible with that scope or would he be using a stereo?
The easiest way is to use the stereo but it is possible to use incident (top illumination) with the low powers (4X) on the compound microscope.
5. any good books you can recommend to tell me what I'm looking at down the scope?
Search the web using any key words that interest you
Boy, I wish I typed faster.
lorez
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Very good tips and advice, but "Mr. Gekko"?? 
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Thank you for your advice so far.
I have spoken to a few bee keepers and clubs about it and general response is "to much trouble" "who could be bothered" and "who has the money to waste on that"
so no one really knows about it.
i have been reading so much stuff on this site and so many others researching etc but it gets so confusing with this scope at 1000x and this at 2600x and this with a mar stain at 400x.
Can anyone advise me on they style of scope i should be looking for ie a trinocular biology scope with 2600x oil dark field condenser infinity objectives that can have a phase contrast added later
of is that just way to much for what im looking for etc. ideally i want to compare apples with apples not apples with grapes if that makes sense
Are the Am Scopes worth looking at as they have all the "upgrades" available for later use or am i better off with another brand?
thank you all again
I have spoken to a few bee keepers and clubs about it and general response is "to much trouble" "who could be bothered" and "who has the money to waste on that"
so no one really knows about it.
i have been reading so much stuff on this site and so many others researching etc but it gets so confusing with this scope at 1000x and this at 2600x and this with a mar stain at 400x.
Can anyone advise me on they style of scope i should be looking for ie a trinocular biology scope with 2600x oil dark field condenser infinity objectives that can have a phase contrast added later
of is that just way to much for what im looking for etc. ideally i want to compare apples with apples not apples with grapes if that makes sense
Are the Am Scopes worth looking at as they have all the "upgrades" available for later use or am i better off with another brand?
thank you all again
-
Crater Eddie
- Posts: 1858
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:39 pm
- Location: Illinois USA
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
Dissection for tracheal mites is best done under a stereo microscope, nothing special needed there.
Varroa mites, hive beetles, queen eggs, and larvae are all quite large, not much magnification needed. A good stereo scope is all you need for that.
Generally speaking, these things are too big for the higher power compound microscope. You can jury-rig a compound microscope to see large things like this with added lights above the specimen and using a low power objective, but that is less than ideal.
Water samples and bacteria do require the compound microscope. You won't find one instrument that does both ranges well. Honest.
Don't get fixated on "super high power". For the most part, anything over 1000X is less than useful. Also, most of the things you want to do (with the compound microscope) can best be done under bright field illumination with the aid of chemical stains. You can easily visualize bacteria using the proper stains. You probably aren't going to positively identify bacteria visually anyway, for that you need to do cultures. The other illumination methods mentioned can be useful, but are really not required, and all add cost to the instrument. With that said, there are ways to easily add darkfield, oblique, and several other illumination techniques to a standard microscope at little cost. You can find all of that information right here on this forum. But you really need to learn all you can about these subjects before you just jump in and buy something. That might not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth.
By the way, have you made friends with your local bee inspector? I don't know how it works in OZ, but in the USA, each state has a team of bee inspectors who's job it is to help the beekeepers raise healthy bees. He or she knows all about this stuff, will be more than happy to make recommendations for you, and would probably be glad to show you how to make most of the examinations you wish to make.
If at all possible, I would recommend taking an introductory course in microbiology at a local college or university. Or at the very least try to make friends with a college or high school biology teacher.
CE
Varroa mites, hive beetles, queen eggs, and larvae are all quite large, not much magnification needed. A good stereo scope is all you need for that.
Generally speaking, these things are too big for the higher power compound microscope. You can jury-rig a compound microscope to see large things like this with added lights above the specimen and using a low power objective, but that is less than ideal.
Water samples and bacteria do require the compound microscope. You won't find one instrument that does both ranges well. Honest.
Don't get fixated on "super high power". For the most part, anything over 1000X is less than useful. Also, most of the things you want to do (with the compound microscope) can best be done under bright field illumination with the aid of chemical stains. You can easily visualize bacteria using the proper stains. You probably aren't going to positively identify bacteria visually anyway, for that you need to do cultures. The other illumination methods mentioned can be useful, but are really not required, and all add cost to the instrument. With that said, there are ways to easily add darkfield, oblique, and several other illumination techniques to a standard microscope at little cost. You can find all of that information right here on this forum. But you really need to learn all you can about these subjects before you just jump in and buy something. That might not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth.
By the way, have you made friends with your local bee inspector? I don't know how it works in OZ, but in the USA, each state has a team of bee inspectors who's job it is to help the beekeepers raise healthy bees. He or she knows all about this stuff, will be more than happy to make recommendations for you, and would probably be glad to show you how to make most of the examinations you wish to make.
If at all possible, I would recommend taking an introductory course in microbiology at a local college or university. Or at the very least try to make friends with a college or high school biology teacher.
CE
Olympus BH-2 / BHTU
LOMO BIOLAM L-2-2
LOMO POLAM L-213 / BIOLAM L-211 hybrid
LOMO Multiscope (Biolam)
Cameras: Canon T3i, Olympus E-P1 MFT, Amscope 3mp USB
LOMO BIOLAM L-2-2
LOMO POLAM L-213 / BIOLAM L-211 hybrid
LOMO Multiscope (Biolam)
Cameras: Canon T3i, Olympus E-P1 MFT, Amscope 3mp USB
Re: Bee keeper wanting to get in to Microscopy
I wrote this before Crater Eddie posted his very informative reply. I would like to run this by the forum members for comment and input. I limited my search to Amscope instruments as those are the ones you mentioned and appear to be interested in. My aim is to try to give some specific guidance and hope to get input, comments, and amplification from other forum members.
(1) For a compound microscope, magnification (1000x or 2000x or whatever) is irrelevant. As long as it has an objective turret that takes 4 or 5 objectives, then you have all the useful magnification that you can have with a standard optical microscope. This is not true for stereo/dissecting scopes. There is a wealth of authoritative information on the main MicrobeHunter website on the choice of a microscope.
(2) I would choose a microscope that can be upgraded to phase contrast capability.
(3) If you intend to get into photography through the microscope, I would get a trinocular scope.
(4) The higher grade, more expensive microscopes from the same manufacturer may have better optics, better lighting, and/or better mechanics (or may not...)
(5) As far as I know, infinity-corrected microscopes have no advantage over finite-tube-length scopes for most applications, and limit the choice of objectives, etc., and are generally more expensive for comparable scopes.
Examples of a so-called "compound" or "biological" microscope that I think would be suitable (not a comprehensive list or necessarily the optimum choices, but just to get you started comparing specs-- and as I said, please ignore magnification specs). I have assumed that you would want a trinocular scope. I have not noted the type of illumination or taken it into account. Halogen bulbs generate a lot of heat (and IR-absorbing filter can be added to reduce heat radeated to the specimen), and many people now prefer LED illumination.
(1) Amscope T680A. Advantages: Koehler illumination, 5-position objective turret with 5 achromatic objectives (including 20x) $750 [I think this has 160-mm tube length but I'm not sure].
Accessories available include Phase Contrast and Darkfield Condensers
(2) Amscope T600A. No Koehler illumination, 4-position objective turret with 4 achromatic objectives $650
Accessories available include Phase Contrast and Darkfield Condensers
(3) Amscope T590A. $600
Accessories available include Phase Contrast and Darkfield Condensers
(4) Amscope T590-DK. $700
The same as T590A (3, above) but ia dry darkfield condenser is included in the price.
My personal choice would be a microscope with a 5-place turret fitted with plan achromats and Koehler illumination, but I've not been able to find one in the Amscope line that would be more-or-less within the budget allotted, although I did not check their infinity-corrected scopes (you may want to do that) It would be worth calling Amscope to ask if they carry a such a model (the array of scopes is bewildering...)
(1) For a compound microscope, magnification (1000x or 2000x or whatever) is irrelevant. As long as it has an objective turret that takes 4 or 5 objectives, then you have all the useful magnification that you can have with a standard optical microscope. This is not true for stereo/dissecting scopes. There is a wealth of authoritative information on the main MicrobeHunter website on the choice of a microscope.
(2) I would choose a microscope that can be upgraded to phase contrast capability.
(3) If you intend to get into photography through the microscope, I would get a trinocular scope.
(4) The higher grade, more expensive microscopes from the same manufacturer may have better optics, better lighting, and/or better mechanics (or may not...)
(5) As far as I know, infinity-corrected microscopes have no advantage over finite-tube-length scopes for most applications, and limit the choice of objectives, etc., and are generally more expensive for comparable scopes.
Examples of a so-called "compound" or "biological" microscope that I think would be suitable (not a comprehensive list or necessarily the optimum choices, but just to get you started comparing specs-- and as I said, please ignore magnification specs). I have assumed that you would want a trinocular scope. I have not noted the type of illumination or taken it into account. Halogen bulbs generate a lot of heat (and IR-absorbing filter can be added to reduce heat radeated to the specimen), and many people now prefer LED illumination.
(1) Amscope T680A. Advantages: Koehler illumination, 5-position objective turret with 5 achromatic objectives (including 20x) $750 [I think this has 160-mm tube length but I'm not sure].
Accessories available include Phase Contrast and Darkfield Condensers
(2) Amscope T600A. No Koehler illumination, 4-position objective turret with 4 achromatic objectives $650
Accessories available include Phase Contrast and Darkfield Condensers
(3) Amscope T590A. $600
Accessories available include Phase Contrast and Darkfield Condensers
(4) Amscope T590-DK. $700
The same as T590A (3, above) but ia dry darkfield condenser is included in the price.
My personal choice would be a microscope with a 5-place turret fitted with plan achromats and Koehler illumination, but I've not been able to find one in the Amscope line that would be more-or-less within the budget allotted, although I did not check their infinity-corrected scopes (you may want to do that) It would be worth calling Amscope to ask if they carry a such a model (the array of scopes is bewildering...)