Newbie questions

[Buginarug]

I am a newcomer to microscopes, other than that I've been using a 10x Belomo loupe for a couple years to explore the smaller things. I am looking for a good starter microscope for the following:

• exploring the natural world, things like pond water, soil, tissues, whatever catches my fancy
• examining rock samples (phase stuff might be bought later)
• really just having fun
• photography/time-lapse
• dark field (DF) is a must
• 1600x a minimum for max magnification

I do not have a clear budget, but I think $300ish is a ceiling, though that doesn't mean I want something that's $299 necessarily, if I can get something 80% as good for $150, say.

I have a few questions (I will reference AmScope solely just to keep things simple and since it's regularly mentioned for starters):

1. what is the qualitative difference between a dedicated DF microscope, like the B340A-DK, and a non-DF scope like the T490A with a DF hack filter added in?
2. I hear the T490B specifically mentioned a lot, but what are the qualitative differences between that and, say, the B120B. Both are 40x-1600x binocular compound scopes with a variety of objectives. I understand the trinocular on the T490B is a major difference. But is the 50% price hike worth the oft-mentioned T490 series over the lowly B120s?
3. Is there a reason to go with a 40-1600x scope when there's a -2000x or -2500x scope of the same model for nearly the same price? Like the B120A, B, and C? Why not get the most magnifying power at the high end?
4. Since I want to look a lot at live microorganisms, an LED is fairly mandated, no?

Lastly, any good field guides/books on organisms both -zoa and -phyto? Books preferably, I like something in print with lots of pictures.

Thanks

[75RR]

Since I want to look a lot at live microorganisms, an LED is fairly mandated, no?

Not necessarily, it depends on where the bulb is placed. If it is directly below the slide then LED is cooler.

Is there a reason to go with a 40-1600x scope when there's a -2000x or -2500x scope of the same model for nearly the same price?

Forget 2000x and especially 2500x, you should also forget 1600x as well. For practical purposes 1000x is max magnification.

But is the 50% price hike worth the oft-mentioned T490 series over the lowly B120s?

The price of different models varies quite a bit as does (inexplicably) the price of the same model on Amazon.
There is a T120 by the way: https://www.amazon.com/AmScope-T120-Pro ... scope+T120
Not that I am recommending it - just letting you know.

what is the qualitative difference between a dedicated DF microscope, like the B340A-DK, and a non-DF scope like the T490A with a DF hack filter added in?

Have not looked into it - but you should know that you can get good darkfield at low magnifications i.e. 4x, 10x, 20x by using homemade stops.

If you are thinking of taking photographs, then a trinocular head is highly recommended.

[wporter]

I like the softcover Free-Living Freshwater Protozoa, A Colour Guide, by Patterson.

[Pat Thielen]

I like the softcover Free-Living Freshwater Protozoa, A Colour Guide, by Patterson.

Sorry to jump in here but I must complain about this post! By reading it you forced me to buy that book off Amazon! Thanks a lot!

Some people around here...

[Buginarug]

Forget 2000x and especially 2500x, you should also forget 1600x as well. For practical purposes 1000x is max magnification.

Why is that? Is that true for all scopes, or just the two series I mentioned, the 120s and 490s? Will the 490 series have better resolution/focus/clarity at higher magnifications than the 120s, is that what the price difference is for, or is it something else?

Have not looked into it - but you should know that you can get good darkfield at low magnifications i.e. 4x, 10x, 20x by using homemade stops.

But at magnifications like 500x or 1000x, you need a factory-provided DF filter?

[Buginarug]

I like the softcover Free-Living Freshwater Protozoa, A Colour Guide, by Patterson.

Oh thanks, that looks great for protozoa.

Anything for protophyta or multicellular creatures?

Anything not only specific to freshwater? I expect to be looking at soil and other terrestrial subjects.

My own research has turned up this possibility, anyone have any thoughts?

https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Microlife- ... J4ZREWDDTZ
Guide to Microlife

[75RR]

Is that true for all scopes ...

Pretty much. See link on Empty Magnification:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1812#p13933

Anything over 1000x (100x objective and 10x eyepiece) with few exceptions, strays into Empty Magnification.

1600x, 2000x and 2500x are sales gimmicks - which should tell you all you need to know about a manufacturer, shop or salesman.

But at magnifications like 500x or 1000x, you need a factory-provided DF filter?

A DF Condenser

I do hope you are not thinking about getting involved in live blood darkfield microscopy
See forum rule #8 viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4193

[Buginarug]

Anything over 1000x (100x objective and 10x eyepiece) with few exceptions, strays into Empty Magnification.

1600x, 2000x and 2500x are sales gimmicks - which should tell you all you need to know about a manufacturer, shop or salesman.

Thanks.

I do hope you are not thinking about getting involved in live blood darkfield microscopy
See forum rule #8 viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4193

Apparently this is a thing. No.

[75RR]

A link to an article on a few things to take into account when considering the purchase of a first microscope:

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... roscope%22

[mrsonchus]

A link to an article on a few things to take into account when considering the purchase of a first microscope:

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... roscope%22

Just had a read of that short article. As one who has been through the exact scenario and for the exact reasons as mentioned therein I would echo your recommendation of this very, very useful and salient link 75'.

This link says it all - buying new - be restrained in the expenditure - you'll have a guaranteed 'scope ready-to-use out of the box. If you develop a deeper love and interest, as many do, many don't of course, you'll start to think about 'upgrades'......

I waited a couple of years to move from my newly-bought 'scope to 'an old master' with all it's possibilities for versatility etc. I had to build my knowledge to be ready to buy such a 'scope, as a beginner I had nowhere near the knowledge or expertise to 'go for one of the big-4'.

Yes I 'lost money' when selling-on the first 'scope - but I personally consider the opposite to be the case, as the newly-purchased 'scope gave me many, many hours of fun, enjoyment, exploration and the friendship of many of the fine fellows of this forum who have helped me along all the way from day 1 - money well spent!

Good luck, the advice of the folks here will help you greatly.

[billbillt]

"Yes I 'lost money' when selling-on the first 'scope - but I personally consider the opposite to be the case, as the newly-purchased 'scope gave me many, many hours of fun, enjoyment, exploration and the friendship of many of the fine fellows of this forum who have helped me along all the way from day 1 - money well spent!"

You are exactly correct John B.!.. People that speak out against Chinese stands lose sight of this.. A Chinese scope is a good way to find out if you have interest in the subject at all.. If a keen interest is developed, a person can then move to more complicated and desirable microscopes.. It is surely " money well spent"!..

The Best,
BillT

[mrsonchus]

Yes Bill - I feel exactly that way from my experience - OK I was lucky enough to be able (thanks to my truly heroic Wife ) to buy a (Chinese) 'SP200' which wasn't exactly entry-level in terms of quality of image or price, but certainly in terms of ease of use - almost immediately I was able to see truly beautifully clear, plan images, within about 20 minutes of it's arrival in fact!

John B

[Buginarug]

I'm getting ready to purchase.

Thank you for the additional ideas. I have made my semi-final decision then. If anyone has any reason I should not buy this scope, speak now or forever hold your eyepiece.

AmScope T340A-DK-LED - $315
http://www.amscope.com/compound-microsc ... scope.html

Reasons:

1. It's the cheapest darkfield LED trinocular microscope from AmScope or OMAX, which seem to be by far the two most recommended and bought "not-totally-crap-toys" Chinese brands.
2. I understand the 1600x issue, but my eyes aren't perfect and it may help to have a little bit of an expanded view of things.

I'm not sure how much pond water and rocks I can look at before getting bored; I guess I will find out shortly

I will hold off on photography until I see if I like this - it seems a good adapter or USB camera will add over $100 to the price.

[billbillt]

That one should do nicely in my HO!.... Amscope has a good reputation..

BillT

[75RR]

I am not familiar with the Amscope darkfield condensers so perhaps someone who has used one can confirm the following.

The page you link to does not give the objective nor the darkfield condenser specifications but judging by other models (in amazon) the Dry Darkfield Condenser extends to 0.7-0.8 NA.
It will therefore most probably only work with the 4x, 10x and 40x objectives unless the NA of the 100x is designed to be reduced. (Some do)
The Darkfield claims would therefore seem to be a little misleading.

Also do not be taken in by the supposed reduction in price - I doubt the model was ever $799 (If it ever was it would have only been for a very short period - just enough to be able to claim it is now hugely discounted)

I believe Amazon has a simpler return policy should the microscope have a problem (price is the same)

Having said that (it is not the microscope's fault that the sellers are charlatans), at $300 it is in the first microscope ballpark and it does have a trinocular head and 40x (objective) darkfield. It will get you up and running and allow you to develop the skills you will need to upgrade in the future if that is what you decide to do.
Amateur microscopy is a fascinating world and this will get you in the door.

On another matter - you may also want to look into getting a 20x objective - it is quite useful as it straddles the 10x and 40x nicely.

[mrsonchus]

This one looks perfect for you - and a very good price indeed. I'd go for this personally as a great way to begin.

Good luck!

[rabitt]

As you can see I have a T340 scope and as a low budget hobbyist scope it is well worth the money. Yes there are plastic parts for the condensers, the camera tube is not adjustable in height and a few other minor problems but overall it does a great job.
Will post the manuals when I get a chance. The DK field manual specks, 4X 10 X and 40X and it works great.

Rich B


___________________________________
AmScope M200B-MS Converted to LED
AmScope T340B-DK-LED
Camera OMAX A3550U 5mp
¬¬https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyfpV2 ... nC_TtHxpOw

[Buginarug]

On another matter - you may also want to look into getting a 20x objective - it is quite useful as it straddles the 10x and 40x nicely.

The nice thing about the 1600x option here is it comes with a 10x and an additional 16x eyepiece, so I get to fill in a lot of the objective zooms with +60% zooms.

Effectively it has 8 magnification options instead of 4: 40X-64X-100X-160X-400X-640X-1000X-1600X

I'm not sure if that has any issues with the different eyepiece, other than having to swap it out physically, but it does offer a lot more magnification options.

Would the darkfield work perfectly well with a 40x + 16x eyepiece at total of 640x?

[75RR]

Effectively it has 8 magnification options instead of 4: 40X-64X-100X-160X-400X-640X-1000X-1600X

That is a common misconception.Though both eyepieces and objectives magnify - they are not equal nor interchangeable.

For example:
A: 20x objective and a 10x eyepiece = 200
B: 10x objective and a 20x eyepiece = 200

Think 200 gallons of watered down whisky rather than magnification.
Lets imagine that the objective with its multiple lenses is the whisky and the eyepiece with much fewer lenses is the water.
Mix A: 133.33 gallons of whisky + 66.66 gallons of water = 200
Mix B: 66.66 gallons of whisky + 133.33 gallons of water = 200

Both give you 200 gallons of watered down whisky, yet they do not quite taste the same. ;)

See this explanation as well for the relationship between the objective and the eyepiece:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4743#p43250

I am re-posting the link to empty magnification. You need to use the formulas.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1812#p13933

Would the darkfield work perfectly well with a 40x + 16x eyepiece at total of 640x?

*A quick test is to multiply the NA of an objective by 1000,
then multiply the magnification of the objective by the magnification of the eyepiece.
If the second figure is higher then using that objective with that eyepiece will result in empty magnification.
If it is lower, then it will be within the useful magnification range and should be fine.

Assuming that your 40x has a NA of 0.65 (most do) then:
1000 x 0.65 = 650
16 x 40 = 640
the result is within the useful magnification range - should be fine. Remember that this is a rule of thumb so there is some leeway.

*This formula is in the above re-posted link.

[charlie g]

Congrats, 'bug in rug' for this microscopy start you take now. As Mr.Sonchas/Jim B has opined..congrats on this forum community to share in your microscopy paths.

75RR...wonderful advice on 'empty magnification'...your emphasis that the microscope objective gives the important magnified image..and a suitable and compatible eyepiece can only enlarge this image 'so much'...before it's...as you clearly state: 'watered down whiskey'.


Please, 'bug in rug', please visit this sites online magazine for all sorts of light microscopy endeavors.

If you can..please share where you are located, and please keep us informed of you 'new scopes arrival'..and your microscopy?

All the best, Charlie Guevara,finger lakes/US.