First microscope advice

Do you have any microscopy questions, which you are afraid to ask? This is your place.
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Aenima
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Re: First microscope advice

#31 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:11 am

mrsonchus wrote:
Aenima wrote:This place looks good - mostly because its got ex-lab equipment, and is based (at least partly) in the UK.


The nikon look and sound good, but i only go by looks alone at the moment, until i can learn a bit more :) however I noticed the above mentioned Labophot - if that's said to be similar or at least roughly comparable it might worth looking at.

http://www.usedmicroscopes.co.uk/nikon.html
Hi, the link to the seller (in the UK) of used 'scopes is a good one. This company, 'Brunel Microscopes' supplied me with my very first 'proper' 'scope and subsequently my current Leitz Orthoplan, bought used from them for a very good price indeed.

This company is very good, very honest and reasonably priced. I buy many supplies from them regularly. I think you may give them a ring and try to speak to Alan, the owner, who is a very genuine and helpful fellow indeed.

If you see a used 'scope on their web-site that you like, give them a ring and discuss it a little with them. Technical queries are usually dealt with by Helen, but Alan is the best to speak to as he's the owner, a little hard to get hold of though - but worth it. If you have any problems with a 'scope from them they will definitely put things right for you.

Good luck.

My advice - buy a 'complete' trinocular 'scope - hunting for parts etc will just sap your enthusiasm when what you really want to do is 'get using the 'scope' and begin your adventures.

p.s. when you get your 'scope let me know and I'll send you a few of my Botanical slides to get you started - as a gift of course, from a fellow UK member!

I forgot to thank you John for the kind offer in the quoted post :) there were lots of replies and ideas floating around and I got distracted and missed the chance to say thanks at the time.
It would be awesome to try a ready made slide preparation especially from a knowledgeable source - much appreciated. :)

Also it was mentioned above that it might be a good idea to start off simple and build up to your ideal scope - this is sounding more wise the more I think about it.
Rather than jump right in at the deep end so to speak it might be better to learn the basics first and get a cheap simple scope - like described in the how to choose a first microscope article.

I keep seeing shiny new models that are clearly going to be lower quality but seem to do a lot of the basic stuff or even one of those eBay scopes that were similar to the BH2 that could be be used later for some of their parts perhaps... ? (That last idea is a shot in the dark).

What would fit that criteria of a learner microscope that will do the job for little cost while preparing to get a real deal?

Any suggestions would be welcome :)

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Re: First microscope advice

#32 Post by billbillt » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:23 pm

" forgot to thank you John for the kind offer in the quoted post "

Yes, John B. is a gentleman and a botanist par excellence!... His slides are the best I have ever seen...

BillT

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Re: First microscope advice

#33 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:22 pm

Aenima wrote:
I forgot to thank you John for the kind offer in the quoted post :) there were lots of replies and ideas floating around and I got distracted and missed the chance to say thanks at the time.
It would be awesome to try a ready made slide preparation especially from a knowledgeable source - much appreciated. :)

Also it was mentioned above that it might be a good idea to start off simple and build up to your ideal scope - this is sounding more wise the more I think about it.
Rather than jump right in at the deep end so to speak it might be better to learn the basics first and get a cheap simple scope - like described in the how to choose a first microscope article.

I keep seeing shiny new models that are clearly going to be lower quality but seem to do a lot of the basic stuff or even one of those eBay scopes that were similar to the BH2 that could be be used later for some of their parts perhaps... ? (That last idea is a shot in the dark).

What would fit that criteria of a learner microscope that will do the job for little cost while preparing to get a real deal?

Any suggestions would be welcome :)
You're most welcome my friend, I've many (100s in fact) 'spares' and certainly won't miss a handful to help you start-out.
The idea to start with a simple 'scope is spot-on. Choose one with a trinocular port, for whatever camera you may begin with and you'll have more than enough to not only get you started with the learning-curve, but to see how much you like microscopy in general.
It's just not possible to 'cover all bases & scenarios' when starting - many considerations require a measure of experience and knowledge to be able to make useful decisions re how you may like to proceed.

You'll also find that when the time comes you'll probably want to replace your first 'scope rather than add parts to it, and also that you really are in no hurry to sell-on the first 'scope, as a spare always has it's uses.

Incidentally, you really will be very pleasantly surprised with the quality of images seen through the cheaper 'scopes - they are very good indeed - 'even' the cheaper end of the spectrum are capable of giving the nicest, bright clear images when used properly.

Perhaps forget (for the time being at least) the 'add-on' techniques such as phase-contrast, darkfield, oblique, DIC etc and begin with brightfield - an enormously rewarding area in itself. The true thrill of microscopy is the visits to those hidden worlds that a 'scope will reveal. If the experience 'grabs you' you will very quickly explore further and become proficient with the use of the microscope. This forum is a perfect place to frequent, full of friendly, kind and very knowledgeable folk who began this wonderful hobby exactly as you are now.

Carefully consider every piece of advice you are given here, these fine folk really know what they're talking about! :D :)

p.s. when you fancy some slides just let me know and I'll post you a nice selection to begin your adventures with!
John B

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Re: First microscope advice

#34 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:24 pm

billbillt wrote:" forgot to thank you John for the kind offer in the quoted post "

Yes, John B. is a gentleman and a botanist par excellence!... His slides are the best I have ever seen...

BillT
Hi Bill! You're a kind and generous chap my friend! :D :D :)
John B

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Re: First microscope advice

#35 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:38 pm

Awesome thank you :)

Very much appreciated. I was actually just watching the eBay auction for a BH2 - was very tempting but I wasn't 100% sure that it was a. A good price (400GBP) and b. Whether the objectives were any good or if the bino head would be sufficient.

I like the easy to follow criteria mentioned of something with a trinocular head :D that is something I can wrap my head around! :p

Having said that if anyone has any suggestions for what to look out for it would be really useful :)

Many thanks once again.

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Re: First microscope advice

#36 Post by zzffnn » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:58 pm

Here is an idea:

Ask Alan Wood (who is also in UK) - what budget scope models you can use as parts (e.g., trinocular head, mechanical stage, condenser, ect) for your future BH2. It may be model CH or a clone made in Asia.

For example, the heads of Nikon S scopes work on Nikon Labophot/Optiphot and are optical match. But stages won't fit and condensers need modifications.
Last edited by zzffnn on Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First microscope advice

#37 Post by 75RR » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:26 pm

Aenima wrote:...that could be be used later for some of their parts perhaps... ? (That last idea is a shot in the dark).

What would fit that criteria of a learner microscope that will do the job for little cost while preparing to get a real deal?

Any suggestions would be welcome :)
I am going to jump in with a suggestion, particularly given your shot in the dark question.

Have a look at the two trinoculars by Zeiss in the Brunel website: http://www.usedmicroscopes.co.uk/zeiss.html

What you have there are two basic Late Zeiss Standard 14s. I emphasize 'late' because towards the end of the Standard Microscope production run - Zeiss got taken over by Suits (the guys with MBAs that know the cost of everything and the value of nothing) who started skimping on quality. In the case of the Standards they replaced the metal field housing with a plastic one and the brass gears of the condenser holder with plastic gears. Older Zeiss Standards are fine. One clue to identify one lot from the other is the Zeiss medallion - the ones that were nobbled just have a stenciled name.

It is this, plus the internal illumination system that effectively make this a first microscope, in the sense that you will want to upgrade to a better Zeiss Standard at some point. The Standard 18 or the WL are two worthwhile goals.

Though the Zeiss Standards are modular and one can therefore effectively convert any model into any other- in this case it is probably simpler to upgrade the stand.

So why this and not a Chinese generic clone?

Well for starters they cost pretty much the same: https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmScope-T490-4 ... scope+t490

You will also get most if not all your money back when you sell it - something that is definitely not the case for the generic microscopes.

You can upgrade by just buying a frame and simply shifting everything over.

What would you shift? The trinocular head and the Neofluar objectives and any additional condenser you may have bought in the meantime.

Why? Well, in total, they are worth pretty much what you will pay for the microscope.

If you are wondering if a generic microscope will be much simpler to use, the answer is not really as these microscopes come with just the basic setup, though they are designed to be upgradeable.

There are however some questions that Brunel need to answer before you jump in if you were to decide to do so.
One of the problems with Brunel is the lack of photos that they provide of the microscope.
There are several things that one simply can not distinguish, for example:

Close up photos of the eyepieces - quality (thanks to the MBAs) varies.
Confirmation of the wattage of the illumination system and that it is working.
Don't see any filter holders or the sub-condenser lens.

To summarize:
Positives - practically free first microscope
Negatives - infamous Zeiss delamination

Note: Unfortunately the Black Zeiss, the quality of which will blow you away, is not a trinocular.
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Re: First microscope advice

#38 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:41 pm

Great advice. Thank you :)


I did take a look at the zeiss models, they (zeiss) are usually known for good optics. :)

When you say late, do you mean the lower quality ones from the end of the period?


If the brunel zeiss models don't fit the bill for whatever reason, is the link below show any promise?

Another question would be is the link you posted to amazon a good example for comparison, or was it just picked to show the price?
Because i was just looking at the same one, except the 409 - B version?





thanks

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Microscope-Tr ... SwhlZYseSB

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Re: First microscope advice

#39 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:52 pm

Sorry, the T490B


- not sure the difference, linked below in case it helps



https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Lab-Scientif ... 43&sr=8-10

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Re: First microscope advice

#40 Post by 75RR » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:08 pm

When you say late, do you mean the lower quality ones from the end of the period?
Yes, the two white ones for sale have the plastic field housing and plastic condenser holder gears. Having said that, so do all the chinese ones!

Not to put too fine a point on it but Brunel is selling a £300 microscope for £300
Amscope is selling a you a £100 one for £300+

The Omax looks ok. Make sure the seller will stand by it if it has a problem. Offer £200
Another question would be is the link you posted to amazon a good example for comparison, or was it just picked to show the price?
Because i was just looking at the same one, except the 409 - B version?
It represents your average Chinese trinocular microscope within the price benchmark.

The 2000x is marketing - they get to that figure by multiplying 20x eyepieces by 100x objective.
20x eyepieces are pretty useless, they only add them to the kit to impress newbies.

If you are going to go for a T490 go for the cheaper one.
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Re: First microscope advice

#41 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:26 pm

Cool, thank you, very helpful info :)


As much as i'd love an old style zeiss i'm thinking there might be a few unknowns involved in buying it - i don't know for sure, but i'd likely feel more comfortable buying something like that if i knew more about the subject and could think on my feet if the scope turned out to have brought any maintenance or other issues with it.

The OMAX looks ok, but its hard to see whether that head is really trinocular without the usual third piece sticking out. It could be a hole with a fitting or it could be wrongly identified by the seller - i can't tell just from looking at the picture...


The amscope looks ok too, from my limited viewpoint anyway - maybe lower quality objectives but it will at least be new and boxed with bits, possibly a warranty. And be ready to use.

I guess as long as it doesn't suffer hideous chromatic aberration or warp around the edges i can work with it for the time being :)


Thats not to say i consider the advice to be wrong, far from it - its more that i don't think i'm able to properly purchase my ideal scope first time around, and i wont really have the funds to allow much room for errors. :)

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Re: First microscope advice

#42 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:32 pm

with brunel they are showing the prices before tax and shipping - once you add the zeiss to the basket its 400, rather than 340. Not gone through far enough in the checkout process to get the shipping added on yet, could be another additional cost still to come.


I don't think its a bad deal as such, but its more than 300.

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Re: First microscope advice

#43 Post by 75RR » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:37 pm

Be aware that Amscope microscopes sometimes arrive with the odd 'problem' It is a quality control issue.
When that happens it is best to return it and get a replacement.
This is easier if the microscope has been sold directly by Amazon.
Do make sure the item is covered by a guarantee and who has to pay for return shipping if that turns out to be necessary.
Looking at the shipping info - it would seem it is shipped from the USA by Amscope
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Re: First microscope advice

#44 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:57 pm

A small but possibly important detail may be the field-iris (this is an adjustable iris in front of the light-source to allow the width of the emergent light 'beam' to be adjusted for each objective - so-called 'Kohler illumination' - very desirable).

The Amscopes look as though they lack a field iris, but someone else will be able to say for sure.

I'd certainly agree that Amazon would be a better source for an Amscope - the somewhat random build-problems may require a quick replacement - I wouldn't like to try this via e-bay personally....

Just a couple of thoughts. :)
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Re: First microscope advice

#45 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:10 pm

thanks guys - yeah it would seem nothing is ever easy when it comes to trying to buy optical equipment on a budget. :P


It took me 3 years to build up my astro setup, and even then its still quite a basic rig..


I think i might just offer that ebay fella some money for the BH2 that recently went unsold. Failing that i'll just look very very closely at stuff through a beer glass, though i'll have to empty it first. :D

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Re: First microscope advice

#46 Post by Aenima » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:55 pm

there is a zeiss on ebay, although unsure whether its suitable for imaging, or if a trinocular can be added....




its UK though and looks in good nick a few objectives etc.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carl-Zeiss-St ... SwbtVZPvJa

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Re: First microscope advice

#47 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:18 am

That one does not have a trinocular head and the objectives are achromats, additionally the eyepieces are CPL - ok for achromats but not if you upgrade the objectives. It is also one of the 'late' standards.

It can however accept a trinocular - remember it is a modular design.

If you are looking at that one why not go for the Black Zeiss GFL (at Brunel), miles better quality and you can put a trinocular head on it as well. Mind you ... they do not give trinocular heads away!
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Re: First microscope advice

#48 Post by Aenima » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:35 am

that black one is kinda nice looking, i like - from what i've seen so far - the look of the zeiss and another brand i keep looking at is Wild, there's an old 50's or 40's model on ebay that just looks amazing. Probably not as suitable as the brunel Zeiss though, but still - if i had the money for two i would make one of them an old style black one like that. :)


I actually emailed Brunel via their contact email the day before yesterday, but not heard back. I'll have to look back at your post regarding the questions i would ask about the two zeiss models.


Would be nice to own one of those, i'm just a bit wary that they might not be functioning as they should, or might need work or parts changed.

Its a lot of money and a used scope

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Re: First microscope advice

#49 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:43 am

Would be nice to own one of those, i'm just a bit wary that they might not be functioning as they should, or might need work or parts changed.
If Brunel say the microscopes are in working order and you then find a problem they should respond. That is the advantage of buying from an established company.

Do not however feel that you must buy one of those Zeiss or indeed any other.
I am just giving recommendations, the final decision is yours to make and live with. ;)
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Re: First microscope advice

#50 Post by Aenima » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:56 am

No its fine, i won't feel obliged - i do however find the recommendations sorely tempting - a lesson from telescope advice i learned the hard way is that with all optics you get what you pay for.

So, for the brunel scopes the zeiss with a trinocular would be the best way forward you think, and better than a new amscope or similar at the same kind of price?


I read in the text that it has a 6volt 20 watt kohler illumination, is that what i need? and an iris diaphram? these were what mrsonchus mentioned right? and the light wattage from your post?

if so then it seems a pretty close scope to the recommended 'ideal'-ish one...

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Re: First microscope advice

#51 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:12 am

So, for the brunel scopes the zeiss with a trinocular would be the best way forward you think, and better than a new amscope or similar at the same kind of price?
Given that it is the same price - the Zeiss is way better.


Iris diaphram is a plus, I mentioned the illumination because I think it is probably 10w rather than 20w, though either one should be fine. Remember this will be your first scope, one you will in time either upgrade or replace.
if so then it seems a pretty close scope to the recommended 'ideal'-ish one...
If it were not for the plastic parts and the 'internal' illumination it would be.

If you like I can have another look at the Brunel photo and suggest other things you might ask about.
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Re: First microscope advice

#52 Post by Aenima » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:14 am

that would be great, thank you :)

Also, with there being two that are very similar - it might come to which has the best eyepiece or objective or whatever, so if you can scan the text to see which of the grey trinoculars have the best bits?


Appreciate it, ta :)

Ps. the forum needs a 'like' or 'thanks' button hehe :D (i'm far too familiar with facebook i think!)

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Re: First microscope advice

#53 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:19 am

Ok will have a look. If you can get Brunel to mix and match so much the better.
Will get back to you tomorrow on this.
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Re: First microscope advice

#54 Post by Aenima » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:25 am

Brilliant, thank you very much :)

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Re: First microscope advice

#55 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:02 pm

Had another look at the specs.

Questions to be asked:

Ask the NA of the condensers (Hopefully it will be 1.3, if one is 0.9 then swop them - you want 1.3)
Ask them to confirm there is no delamination in the objectives. (This is important)
Ask them to confirm the trinocular head is in good condition.
Ask them to confirm illumination is in working order - you could ask him to confirm the watts if you want.

Both microscopes look in pretty much the same good condition.
I imagine the top microscope is a little more expensive because it includes the 16x objective.
That will give you a better spread so that is the one that you want. Besides that 16x is worth more than the £8 difference in price.
However, ask him to swop the eyepieces - you want the metal 10x ones.

The objectives you want:
10x Neofluar
16x Neofluar
40x Neofluar (he will probably make it the PH one as he has two, that is ok)
100x Plan Neofluar
+
10x eyepieces (the metal ones in the bottom microscope)
+
1.3 condenser (if possible)

If both the condensers are 0.9 then you could ask for a small discount

It is important that he states that it is in working order - that will allow you to get back to him if anything is amiss.

Note on the trinocular:
The trinocular it has is a 100-0/0-100 arrangement.
That means that when you are using the binocular all the light goes to it (100) and none goes to the photo tube (0)
When you are taking photographs all the light is switched to the photo tube (100) and (0) goes to the binoculars.
To view the subject while photographing you need to view it on the camera viewer or if you connect the camera to a computer, on its monitor.

If you have any more questions do ask.
Let me know what Brunel says
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Re: First microscope advice

#56 Post by Aenima » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:14 pm

Awesome info yet again, big thanks :)

Well i emailed brunel, i didn't include a great deal of text initially just wanted to contact them see if their contact email is 'manned' - as i've already emailed a few places and people in the last four or five days with no replies yet, so i'll save the long typed out stuff for somewhere i get a response from. :)


I'm still not entirely sure about the Zeiss. I mean it will be costing over 400.GBP and if its meant to come under the 'first scope' category it might be a relatively costly scope that still isn't what i need. I'm not sure if i'm expecting too much for a small budget.

Its just that if i spent that kind of money, it might be a rather long time before i could get a similar lump sum again to top that purchase with a better (upgrade) one. If that makes any sense?

Maybe i should either use this current money more carefully with possibly a slight increase in budget - say ~£500, or just flat out go for a cheap model as a first scope that i wouldn't mind considering temporary.

Unless of course the Zeiss is easily upgraded and sufficiently high quality as to later become the 'second' scope - in which case its still worth buying for the price....

i hope that kinda makes sense, i'm still finding it hard to judge potential equipment properly due to being unfamiliar with it. For example i saw a comparison between achromat and plan-achromat - apochromat objectives, and it was nothing like i pictured (from using telescopes). I thought the images would be similar but with some CA around bright areas - but it was a lot more than that, there was a big difference in contrast and detail as well.

its possible it wasn't a great example - i found it via google - but it goes to show i haven't really got all the facts. ;)

A olympus BH2 went unsold on ebay for starting bid of nearly 400, only a binocular version and likely basic objectives, but its a similar price range to the zeiss, so i'm wondering if that starting bid is worth offering to the guy - not much in the way of guarantees on ebay though.

ah well.... i'll try and get those questions answered from brunel, and see how things go. Hopefully the pondering above makes sense and might explain my thoughts on the matter - and maybe helps someone help me, so to speak. :p


Cheers


Ps been looking at the images from Krebsmicro using microscope objectives on macro bellows - thats some amazing stuff, really want to give that kind of thing a try.

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Re: First microscope advice

#57 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:34 pm

Get some answers from Brunel before you make a decision.

If you remember, the Amscope was more than £300 + shipping and its resale value when you sell it will be about £100

The Zeiss is worth £300 + and you will get that money back no matter what if/when you sell.
If the cost really is £400 once you add vat and shipping then you are only talking £100

If you think the jump from achromat to plan achromat is big wait till you see the Neofluars!

Still, as I said, it is up to you.
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Re: First microscope advice

#58 Post by Aenima » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:09 pm

75RR wrote:Get some answers from Brunel before you make a decision.

If you remember, the Amscope was more than £300 + shipping and its resale value when you sell it will be about £100

The Zeiss is worth £300 + and you will get that money back no matter what if/when you sell.
If the cost really is £400 once you add vat and shipping then you are only talking £100

If you think the jump from achromat to plan achromat is big wait till you see the Neofluars!

Still, as I said, it is up to you.

That is quite encouraging actually - i was looking on ebay for objectives general price and it would be nice not to have to buy them separately - all the ones that aren't achromats are ~ £100 upwards. If the zeiss are relatively good then they are worthy buys in themselves.

OK, will wait for brunel, pitch some questions and see what happens. :)



Cheers.

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Re: First microscope advice

#59 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:24 pm

I'd give Brunel a ring if I were you - they're pretty slow with e-mail I find - almost a waste of time.
They are however very good via telephone, Helen is the tech dept and Alan is the boss - and also knows what he's talking about - also he's a very pleasant fellow indeed.
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Aenima
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Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:01 am
Location: sunny UK

Re: First microscope advice

#60 Post by Aenima » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:03 pm

I got a reply from Brunel, which is great :)
not gotten any answers although he suggested phoning - I'm not that great at phone calls but if it's vital I shall give it a shot..

I got the impression he didn't seem too impressed by the Zeiss for the purpose of photography. Although I think that might be based on the fact that there are better options available - it might come down to budgetary limitations though, which will narrow the options.
If I can find a BH2 within the same price range it might be a better body but if it has basic objectives the end results might not be any better?

Is that right? The recommended Olympus is still going to be limited by whatever optics it has, the scope itself is favoured by what, the availability of parts and ability to upgrade or customise it? Or are there other reasons?

I've made a small amount of progress on the basics - looking up the difference between some of the objectives - achromats and plan achromats etc.
So I'm thinking the objectives and the ability to change them is important - conversely the amscope or Omax types have them fixed on don't they? Stuck with achromats forever (or plan achromats at best)?

Sorry for the questions again :p

Cheers

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