First microscope for fun and imaging.

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Sunrune
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First microscope for fun and imaging.

#1 Post by Sunrune » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:57 am

Hello all.

After much reading I am ready to buy my first 'real' microscope and am interested in what other more experienced microscopists have to say.

As for some background: I have a few years experience with macro photography - lenses include a Canon MPE65 and 100mm macro, and some infinity objectives including Nikons and Mitutoyos that I use with DSLRs. After going smaller and smaller I feel a need for a decent microscope for fun and imaging. I am fascinated by tiny critters/structures and also want to take some decent photos.

However as I am a microscope noob I don't really know what to look for in a scope. The wisdom as I read it seems to be buy a used one from the "big four" - and the prices are much lower than for new equipment. However it seems difficult to upgrade older scopes as parts can be hard to get. So basically I'd like to decide what contrast techniques the microscope should have and buy it ready to go. So ...

Brightfield/darkfield would be OK to start with but I think I'd quickly yearn for something more advanced, especially for imaging. Is DIC worth it? Although much more expensive than phase contrast the images seem better and it opens up some polarization methods. Also is fluorescence best avoided by the inexperienced?

Any advice will be appreciated.

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gekko
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#2 Post by gekko » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:56 am

Hello Sunrune,
Not an easy question. Although I don't think I can add much to what you already know from your reading, here are are some rambling thoughts; I'm sure others will chip in with better ones. Two important questions are, how much do you expect to spend? and what do you plan to look at or photograph? One thing is clear, and that is you will want a trinocular head. Polarization is very easy and inexpensive to implement with any microscope (all you need are two polarizing filters), unless you plan to examine things like thin rock sections; then you will probably need a proper polarizing microscope. Is DIC worth the cost? It depends. For esthetic purposes, inexpensive alternatives do exist. You can search this forum for excellent images posted by Seb28 where he uses UFG (which is sometimes anglicized to UGF, "Universal Gradient Filter", invented by 'litonotus' and published on the macrophotography forum), which gives results that are visually so close to DIC as makes little difference, at least to my eyes, although the principle of operation is different. You can also search the macrophotography forum for many more images taken with UFG. But for studying transparent microorganisms with no contrast or color, then you will need either DIC or phase contrast. In any case, for using inexpensive contrast enhancing filters or patches (UFG, darkfield, Rheinberg, oblique) effectively, you will need to place such filters very close to the plane of the condenser's iris diaphragm (i.e. front focal plane of the condenser), and some condensers have the iris diaphragm deep inside their body, making the effective use of such filters not possible [I have an old Nikon microscope that uses such condensers, and I had to adapt a generic condenser to allow me to experiment with Rheinberg, etc.] Fluorescence: yes, more is involved in that as you know (various specialized filters and light sources), and you will need to choose a microscope that can be (or already) fitted with this capability (same with DIC, and perhaps even phase contrast).

Sunrune
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#3 Post by Sunrune » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:11 am

Thanks for the reply, gekko. I was familiar with UGF from my internet travels but hadn't thought too much about condenser suitability for filters.

There's nothing too specific that I'd like to use the microscope to look at - the idea is for biological specimens like insects, pond life and cells. As for the budget I hope to spend not much more than US$6000-ish, although that may be optimistic for a DIC system? btw I like the look of the Olympus BH2s but what is available, and price, will decide.

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75RR
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#4 Post by 75RR » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:08 pm

Hello Sunrune,
US$6000-ish
I would suggest that your first microscope not be that costly.
The reason for that is avoid a potential expensive white elephant.
Jumping into the deep end on what might turn out to be a whim (if you do not get seriously bitten by the microscopy bug) would be a shame.

Think of the illumination techniques as steps. DIC and Fluorescence are at the very top.
One should work one's way up.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

Sunrune
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#5 Post by Sunrune » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:55 pm

Yes good point, 75RR. For example a decent phase contrast microscope can be bought for much less than that.

I was bitten by the little bug years ago and have been scratching the itch with a DSLR and various lenses/objectives (down to a Mitutoyo 50/.55 APO), using different mounting and lighting configurations. If I had been warned before I bought my first macro lens how big a cost photographing the small can be then perhaps my wallet would be thicker now; but probably not as I do enjoy it - both the theory and practice.

Buying used is the economical way to go but a downside seems to be that it can be difficult to find parts to upgrade. Spending the next few years scouring ebay and the internet for prisms etc doesn't appeal to me. At the moment I feel that DIC could be worth it, especially for pond critters, and I don't want to have to upgrade in a few months.

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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#6 Post by Peter » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:29 pm

hi Sunrune,
I can't tell you which microscope to buy, however in my opinion DIC is worth it.
Peter.

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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#7 Post by JimT » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:28 pm

I have to agree with 75RR. Your first microscope doesn't have to be your last one. My first telescope enabled me to learn what I wanted Vs. didn't need before I bought my last telescope. You might consider an inexpensive Chinese trinocular scope to get started and then upgrade from there.
I also agree with gecko. There are ways to simulate DIC with filters that (at least to me) are just as effective.
You will find lots of different opinions on this site so "Good luck" :)

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mrsonchus
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#8 Post by mrsonchus » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:53 pm

Hi, $6000 is a large commitment to make from the outset..... The temptation is to do the reading to wet the appetite then jump in with the most delicious-looking 'scope that you can afford! Luckily for me (as it turned out) I started on a small budget as I had very little money at the time. This did allow me however to learn exactly what I wanted to study and therefore what equipment I would need to pursue this course. One thing I did know from the start was that I wanted to be able to record (i.e. photograph) my progress and samples, and to make permanent slides for a collection. You would probably be wise to forget the more advanced (and yes - very very attractive) techniques such as DIC for the moment and concentrate on acquiring a 'scope with which to learn the craft, develop and start to find your particular area/s of interest.
I would say, get an entry-level trinocular 'scope with phase contrast - a relatively inexpensive enhancement that will show you what can be done with essentially transparent, usually living and unstained subjects ('pond creatures' for example). My 2nd 'scope was such a 'scope with phase contrast, but as my interests developed I found that I loved botanical specimens, sectioning, staining etc and the production of permanently-mounted subjects. This gradually allowed me to realize that my 'big-purchase' 'scope didn't need to have PC so I was able to leave this off of it's specification. I can always add it later after all.
If, like me, you really don't enjoy the process of upgrading and scavenging for parts of a used 'scope then I would strongly advise you to go for a new 'scope. I was spending so much time trying to optimize and perfect my old 'scope that I hardly had time for the bit I really love doing - microscopy and imaging. Eventually after months of frustrating attempts with spares that didn't quite fit or turned out to be plain wrong, my Wife 'put me out of my (and perhaps her...) misery and bought me an absolutely fantastic 'scope brand-new!

So, (whew - sorry to ramble on) as horrid as it is to have the finances ready to roll and be advised to start well below the level you are able to - keep your first 'scope simple and start your hobby, let your interest grow and I guarantee within a couple of months you'll know exactly what you require of a 'scope and what aspects of the huge discipline of microscopy really capture your imagination!

Keep calm, start simply with perhaps a std biological 'scope for say <$1000 and enjoy your voyage of discovery in what is a fascinating and supremely rewarding pursuit.

The first time I achieved a good image of a well-mounted permanent slide of a humble onion-epidermis, stained just right, I felt like a King!

Very best of luck - stick with this excellent forum and you won't go far wrong - I'm very new here myself and I've received constant advice, support and encouragement right from the first post I made here. You'll 'meet' some very skilled, helpful and experienced folk here! :D
John B

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lorez
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#9 Post by lorez » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:14 am

Hello Sunrune,

There is lots of excellent advice in the replies above mine and I agree, for what it's worth, with most, if not all of it. So, here's mine. Get the biggest, baddest microscope your budget will handle, learn to use it and then use it for many X many years to come.

lorez

Sunrune
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#10 Post by Sunrune » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:35 am

:D

Thank you all for the comments - lots of food for thought there.

Buying used, even if it is a more recent model, does seem the way to go. And in a way it doesn't matter what I end up buying as it is sure to bring me enjoyment.

I'll be back.

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mrsonchus
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#11 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:11 pm

Aha - Lorez definitely has a very good point! :lol:
You really can't go wrong with your quest for enjoyment first - that's ultimately the idea after all!

Very good luck - don't forget to let us all know how you progress.

p.s. If I had $6000 to go at it with I'd probably faint with excitement! :mrgreen:

Enjoy.
John B

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gekko
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#12 Post by gekko » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:48 pm

With a budget of $6000 or so, I say get in touch with the Olympus and Zeiss representatives in your area, discuss your requirements, and see what they can offer, including the availability and cost of possible future updates (Fluorescence, etc.). In this, I'm agreeing. in a sense, with lorez and Peter. Otherwise I think you will have that itch until you do so.

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75RR
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#13 Post by 75RR » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:29 pm

Seems to be a more than a little vicarious shopping going on!
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#14 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:51 pm

75RR wrote:Seems to be a more than a little vicarious shopping going on!
You've got that right! I'm salivating at the thought of it!
Zeisss, Olympus, Hmmmm..... gimme gimme gimme!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
John B

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gekko
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#15 Post by gekko » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:55 pm

:D :D :D

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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#16 Post by Charles » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:37 pm

A great way to start with children is with an inexpensive stereo scope. They can pretty much plop anything on the stage...feather, insects (preferably dead or in a petri dish, so it doesn't crawl away)... and see detail that they never will see with the naked eye with minimal preparation. Stereo scopes are also easier to use and a great way to start microscopy. As they advance, most any compound scope will work, as long as it has good lighting and decent optics. Or, get one of each.

Sunrune
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#17 Post by Sunrune » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:05 pm

My microscope is now officially on its way down under; a Nikon Microphot SA.
Microphot.jpg
Microphot.jpg (84.5 KiB) Viewed 10049 times
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111628137551

As this microscope had just about everything on my wishlist I decided to risk a purchase from overseas.
Last edited by Sunrune on Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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75RR
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#18 Post by 75RR » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:21 pm

Wow!
Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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Crater Eddie
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#19 Post by Crater Eddie » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:55 pm

I think I could force myself to be happy with that one for a while. :)
Congratulations on your purchase, I hope it arrives safely.
CE
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gekko
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Re: First microscope for fun and imaging.

#20 Post by gekko » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:51 pm

Good for you! Congratulations!
[If I may just add a point of caution: until you are quite conversant with fluorescence, I think it would be good to avoid turning on the upper lamp because it will emit strong UV that, if you're not very careful, can cause eye damage. Also, the bulb is likely to be quite expensive and with a relatively short life, so you don't want to have it on longer than is needed.]

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