Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

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rs6000
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Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#1 Post by rs6000 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 am

I am not familiar with the terms SB and LB but I see talk of them all the time just not on there principles
Now I've recently bought many vintage Nikon and Zeiss objectives making always sure to adhere to the 160 Tl principle now this gets thrown into the works UGH :?

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#2 Post by zzffnn » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:32 am

Long barrel = 45mm parfocal height
Anything shorter than 45mm, say 37mm parfocal height, may be called a short barrel.

Short barrel objectives usually have 160-170mm finite tube length. But it is not guaranteed.

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#3 Post by MicroBob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:01 am

For the matching of microscope components more factors have to be taken into account:

finity vs. infinity optics?

when finity optics:

-parfocal height of objective (32-45mm)
-tube length (160-170)
-point where the eyepiece picks up the image in the tube (Carl Zeiss West = later DIN 10mm, Leitz 18mm, Carl Zeiss Jena 13mm)
-compensation of chromatic errors (usually correcting eyepieces are used for stronger objectives and apos, Zeiss West Standard: for all objectives (nearly) :lol:

Leitz 170mm tube lenght, 45mm parfocal height, 18mm eyepiece pickup point in the tube: Image is 152mm up in the tube.
Zeiss Standard 160mm tube lenght,45mm parfocal height, 10mm eyepiece pickup point in the tube: Image is 150mm up in the tube.
These are closer than expected and can be mixed quite well.

The compensation effect of the different eyepieces varies quite a bit. Zeiss West and Jena are similar, Leitz compensates less but is halfway close, Olympus compensates even lesser and is not a great fit for Zeiss anymore. BUT: A modern Olympus eypiece may very well give a nicer image than an old Zeiss keyhole eyepiece.

infinity:
I can't contribute much here, but it is even more difficult to mix infinity optics


Bob

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#4 Post by apochronaut » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:41 pm

MicroBob wrote:
infinity:
I can't contribute much here, but it is even more difficult to mix infinity optics


Bob

How do you know that?

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#5 Post by MicroBob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:40 pm

There have been lots of different thread sizes for infinity systems, even within one companies range. I wouldn't think that this makes mixing an easy task.

Do you have an overview over infinity systems and their practical compatability on a high level of performance? There must be some compatabilities, but the companies won't tell us! :cry:

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#6 Post by apochronaut » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:29 pm

Thread size is unrelated to tube length compatibility. It is matched to parfocality though but with oo optics adding a small parfocal adapter isn't a problem, nor is adding a thread adapter. Threads are R.M.S., 25mm or rarely 19mm for some odd late Aus Jena. It is actually easier and cheaper to include such in a mixed objective set, than buying a whole set of eyepieces that have to be used with a specific manufacturer's objective. Mixing and matching objectives in 160mm microscopes is a nightmare due to corrections in the eyepieces, unless you are willing to accept a degree of chromatic aberration as well as a lack of parfocality. Comparing Huygens eyepieces used with various mfg, finite tube objectives, would make it seem that they are fairly compatible due to the general acceptance of aberrations when using simple microscope systems topped with huygens eyepieces but the real comparison should be with the proprietary eyepieces designed to correct for planarity over a wider field. Then, the compatibility gets worse and is all over the place.

D.I.N. oo objectives are much more likely to be completely corrected than older finite objectives, so eyepieces that do not contain built in corrections can be used over a broader range of mfg. All the tube length affects, is the final magnification. For instance, Olympus objectives test 11% higher on a Leica delta optics instrument, HX instrument, a Reichert instrument or the later AO. 9% lower, going the other way. Zeiss seems to be the outlier amongst the infinity producers, opting for a very short tube length as well as requiring further correction from the telon lens. Zeiss isn't even compatible within it's own product range. There is no excuse for that. They just lazily bought into an off the shelf infinity corrected Chinese microscope that is Olympus compatible, to pass off as their cheapo line. The same microscope is available unbranded or as another brand for 1/2 the price.

For sure, there isn't perfect compatibility in any era of microscope production and it seems that manufacturers deliberately make it hard to include another's components in one of their systems. There is no reason for instance, why condenser carriers couldn't be universalized. The condensers themselves are pretty universal. Why , 5 different dovetail sizes? It's as idiotic, 250 kinds of toothbrushes.
It is pretty easy though, to include various mfg. optics in some oo systems. Currently I am using Reichert, AO and Olympus in the same instrument with W.F. 20mm eyepieces. Only microns worth of parfocal shims are required. If I were to use Olympus, Reichert and AO objectives from 1955 for instance, I would need hundreds of microns in parfocal shims and the best case compatibility would end at achromat objectives with huygens eyepieces. Anything W.F. or apochromat would probably require an eyepiece swap for each mfg. Wild or Leitz or Zeiss, even Bausch & Lomb would be the same, or worse. Add to that, not all mfg. made huygens eyepieces to the same corrections, so even though many Huygens are very close, some are very different and poorly correct for another manufacturer's objective's peculiarities. They all have them and none are any better than the other.

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#7 Post by MicroBob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:44 pm

My only infinity objectives are for my Zeiss Jena incident lighting unit for my NF research stand. They are 19mm x 0,75. From Zeiss Jena there are also
M25 x 0,75 (CF250) and M30 x 0,75 incident lighting workshop microscope. On the german used market I could buy Zeiss West infinity (older HD : M24 x 0,75 other: M27 x 0,75), Leica (?) and the occasional Olympus (M26 x 0,75). At the given prices it would be an expensive experiment to try out to match them together on a stand.
With finity microscopes I find that I can just use one make of objectives at a time as they are not that expensive and relatively plenty on the used market.
For my Zeiss Jena NF I mainly use Leitz NPL Fluotar objectives and matching eyepieces. They are not expensive when they surface and I like them very much.

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#8 Post by apochronaut » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:11 pm

The idea is to go back in time a little, and then there are some bargains. Reichert has had infinity corrected stands from medium lab size up to Research monsters, since 1973. They all use the same objectives. I snagged a couple of brand new planapos, from Austria recently for 1/30 of their original cost.

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#9 Post by rs6000 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:26 pm

Thank you for all your Input on that question
but how do you identify a SB or LB objective
typically I look only for the 160/.75 etc and of course the threads are RMS as all I have got fit well in the turret but there is no Identifiers for that nomenclature
My collection consists of 3 Nikon Phase C 10,20,40X 1 Olympus 4x non phase and rest are Zeiss 40x Oel 63x Oel non phase

Microscope is a Std 18

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#10 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:05 pm

rs6000 wrote:...how do you identify a SB or LB objective
typically I look only for the 160/.75 etc and of course the threads are RMS as all I have got fit well in the turret but there is no Identifiers for that nomenclature
My collection consists of 3 Nikon Phase C 10,20,40X 1 Olympus 4x non phase and rest are Zeiss 40x Oel 63x Oel non phase
Measure the length from the objective shoulder to the tip (so, end-to-end, excluding the thread). If it is about 45mm, they are long barrel. 6.3X and 10X may be slightly shorter, about 42mm, they are still long barrel. Short barrel objectives are 33-36mm long.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#11 Post by 75RR » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:33 pm

Microscope is a Std 18
Unless one has a specific need that can only be covered by a different manufactures objective, (water dipping for example) either because it does not exist,
is very hard to source or it is simply too expensive then it is best to keep to the objectives from the same manufacturer as that of the stand.
Remember that in finite systems the eyepieces play an important role in correcting aberrations, if you use other manufacturers objectives you would also have to use their matching eyepieces.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4tgj1z75esrt ... d.pdf?dl=0
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#12 Post by rs6000 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:12 am

I almost forgot I have a set of very nice olympus objectives Very nice rubber eyecups
CWHK 10X/18L

does that matter much

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#13 Post by MicroBob » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:33 am

As I wrote already the calculations of the eyepieces are matched carefully to the calculation of the objectives. Light of different wavelenght is imaged differently by a single lens. This effect is still there with typical finity microcope objectives and is corrected in the last step by the eyepiece. The Olympus objectives had a relatively low level of colour shift and so the eyepieces correct it to a relatively small amount. This means that you eyepieces are perfect for Olympus objectives and worst for Zeiss objectives.

Parfocality length: Older objectives of little power are sometimes not parfocal at all with the other objectives of the set. Simple low power achromats e.g. a Zeiss 3,2:1 can be built very short but still are 45mm parfocal. A typical 40:1 objective will be approximately 1mm shorter than its parfocality lenght. If you have an image of the objective, taken perpendicular from the side you can measure th ethread diameter and the lenght from flange to front lens and can differentiate between the typical parfocality lenghts.

But as 75RR mentioned it only makes sense to use optical components from other brands if you know what you do and have a reason for it.
Here in Germany Zeiss Standard objectives are more widely available than anything else. The only reason to avoid Zeiss optics is that they have more problems with delamination than other brands.

Right now you have a wild mix of optics. While one wouldn't choose this willingly they may work well together even if the theory sais no. :lol:

Is your Zeiss 63x a Planapo? You should check it for delamination then before you take it as a start for building a matched set of objectives. Most of them are delaminated.

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#14 Post by 75RR » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:26 am

Zeiss finite 160 objectives do have (a very disappointing) problem with delamination.

This link will show you how to identify it.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ind ... delam.html

The Zeiss 18 is a very nice stand. Nothing wrong with using it with either Olympus or Nikon objectives, only do not mix them.

Use either all Zeiss or all Olympus or all Nikon and use with same brand eyepieces.

Mixing them is just playing silly games.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#15 Post by MicroBob » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:51 am

75RR wrote:Zeiss finite 160 objectives do have (a very disappointing) problem with delamination.
The delamination problem is not present in all types of Zeiss West optics to the same degree. With simple achromatic objectives I have had no problem at all, but some KPL eyepieces and my 63:1 Planapo are delaminated like many others. There seems to be a tendency that the better optics have more problems. If all that is needed is a set of simple achromats Zeiss West is a safe bet, cheap and cheerful. I wouln't spend much money on the higher corrected objectives though.
On the other hab side: I have just bought a delamination free Lomo 70:1 apo (turned out to be deleaminated) and some time ago two Leitz 100:1 Plan(apo) one delaminated, one with punched in front lens. So its not Zeiss West alone where you can buy beautiful paperweights. :roll:

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#16 Post by 75RR » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:18 pm

There seems to be a tendency that the better optics have more problems.
I would agree with that. I have not had problems with achromats, plans nor neofluars but have had with planapos, KPL eyepieces and one binocular.
When buying make sure to ask seller to state if there is any delamination.
Item can then be returned or price can be adjusted accordingly.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

charlie g
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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#17 Post by charlie g » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:21 pm

75RR wrote:
Microscope is a Std 18
Unless one has a specific need that can only be covered by a different manufactures objective, (water dipping for example) either because it does not exist,
is very hard to source or it is simply too expensive then it is best to keep to the objectives from the same manufacturer as that of the stand.
Remember that in finite systems the eyepieces play an important role in correcting aberrations, if you use other manufacturers objectives you would also have to use their matching eyepieces.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4tgj1z75esrt ... d.pdf?dl=0
Terrific thread here...and I do 'feel the pain' of the OP regarding the DIN (45mm), vrs. 'shorty' barreled objectives, plus tube length criteria of the stand which must be known before purchase of a seemingly great-deal microscope used objective.

For both Microbob and 75RR I want to add..with my circa 1980 Nikon Labophot-Pol 160 TL stand..well the objectives are: "CF optics..as are the "CF eyepieces"..it's my understanding that with Nikon-developed CF optics..there is no need for the balance of compensating oculars paired to specific objectives. I have a July 1985 Nikon Labophot brochure which discusses the CF optics vrs 'conventional compensating systems'. With CF 160 TL objectives...I sense you have less compatibility concerns..maybe?!

Thanks for another great and educational thread. Charlie Guevara with a lot of Nikon occulars and objectives I do not really need anymore.

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Re: Short barrel long Bar HELP needed

#18 Post by MicroBob » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:32 am

Hi Charlie,
as far as I know CF meant indeed colour (error) free, so a perfect image with non-compensating eyepieces. So these components are perfectly compatible to themselves. But if you would mix Nikon Cf objectives or eyepieces with Zeiss, Leitz or Olympus of the time you would get bad colour errors. So a good basic recipe for a fixed tube length component mix would be to keep it Nikon CF-free :lol: .
The eyepieces might work well with infinity microscopes though.
The then new DIN-norm that made they Zeiss West dimensions to the new standard must have been a threat to the microscope companies. This probably increased the speed of the change over to infinity optics, leaving the norm a relict of the past as soon as it was published.

Bob

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