Hello
All this microscope stuff is very new so it's not easy trying to figure out which microscope I should purchase for diagnosing avian disease's, in particular those encountered by pigeons. The reason I've decided I need to do this is that I'm a volunteer at a wildlife rescue in the UK, we rely on charitable donations and the only way we'll be able to test the pigeons for potential disease will be to do the testing myself.
My budget is around £150 or $200 which isn't a lot I know so I've been looking at used microscope's, I've found a nice American Optics 110 for sale in very good condition, I've included some photos, not that you don't know what one looks like but I'm assuming it's just the standard version but you may spot something I won't.
'Apochronaut' mentioned in a previous post that in order to get any image quality whatsoever with bacteria, Phase, DF, DIC and oblique are a must.
Obviously I would have to buy specific components to upgrade the microscope but the biggest problem would be the availability especially over here in the UK considering they were produced in the US, do I really need those features or could I could just use the standard microscope and stain the samples instead?
Any advice would be much appreciated - thanks.
Microscope -Avian Disease's
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Andrew2007
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- Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:19 pm
Microscope -Avian Disease's
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Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
I'm sure Apo will chime in, but from my perspective, 1) it looks like a nice scope, 2) you don't need DIC, probably limited application for bacteria, and may not be available for this scope and certainly not for your budget; 3) the scope is shown with B&L eyepieces; get yourself some AO eyepieces. Apo will let you know which ones.
I assume you have done some research on these avian diseases and the protocols for diagnosing them and using the scope and other methods to determine if they are present in a sick bird or not. Having a functional scope is a mere first step in reaching your goal, one of many tools you will need. It would be very handy to have access to an avian vet or vet tech to assist you getting started.
I assume you have done some research on these avian diseases and the protocols for diagnosing them and using the scope and other methods to determine if they are present in a sick bird or not. Having a functional scope is a mere first step in reaching your goal, one of many tools you will need. It would be very handy to have access to an avian vet or vet tech to assist you getting started.
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Well, I like pigeons, I like microscopes, and I like bacteria...
But there are problems with this plan. Bacteria are very small, even for a microscope. They are at the limit of resolution for a light microscope. You will be able to determine the basic shape of the bacteria, but that's about all. There are only a few different shapes- so that doesn't give you much information. Most bacterial identification comes from biochemical, genetic and metabolic testing, outside the realm of the home microscopist.
But there are problems with this plan. Bacteria are very small, even for a microscope. They are at the limit of resolution for a light microscope. You will be able to determine the basic shape of the bacteria, but that's about all. There are only a few different shapes- so that doesn't give you much information. Most bacterial identification comes from biochemical, genetic and metabolic testing, outside the realm of the home microscopist.
William
Astoria, Oregon
Zeiss Axiomat
Zeiss Stereomikroskop
Zeiss Tessovar
Astoria, Oregon
Zeiss Axiomat
Zeiss Stereomikroskop
Zeiss Tessovar
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Hi Andrew,
you actually ran into a quite common problem: You want to help wild animals and habe not the money to go to a vet every second day or there is no vet who is willing to treat treally sick animals. I can't really help you myself but I can give some hints:
- wild city pigeons frequently have serious diseases. So you would have to make sure that your hygenic standards are up to the task, trained and proven. Nothing for your kitchen lab, seriously, especially for animals that fly where they want!
- this is not easy to learn, and you would have to try to find somebody who counter checks you diagnosis to become safe in your judgement
- people will tell you you can't do this because you are not a vet - all the time
- you will need the right approach. As soon as you accept that this is really difficult and respect your (and general) limits, you will have a chance to learn, step by step
- when acting within your limits you can do more good than harm
- good knowledge of micro lab work and chemistry would be a big plus - know your substances, where to get them, precise weighing, chem lab work, maybe sombody who can help out here?
Is there somebody in your pigeon community who already knows how to identify some diseases and from whom you could learn?
Bob
you actually ran into a quite common problem: You want to help wild animals and habe not the money to go to a vet every second day or there is no vet who is willing to treat treally sick animals. I can't really help you myself but I can give some hints:
- wild city pigeons frequently have serious diseases. So you would have to make sure that your hygenic standards are up to the task, trained and proven. Nothing for your kitchen lab, seriously, especially for animals that fly where they want!
- this is not easy to learn, and you would have to try to find somebody who counter checks you diagnosis to become safe in your judgement
- people will tell you you can't do this because you are not a vet - all the time
- you will need the right approach. As soon as you accept that this is really difficult and respect your (and general) limits, you will have a chance to learn, step by step
- when acting within your limits you can do more good than harm
- good knowledge of micro lab work and chemistry would be a big plus - know your substances, where to get them, precise weighing, chem lab work, maybe sombody who can help out here?
Is there somebody in your pigeon community who already knows how to identify some diseases and from whom you could learn?
Bob
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Andrew2007
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:19 pm
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Thanks everyone.
I wasn't aware that it had B & L eyepieces.
Unfortunately the nearest avian vet sends his sample's away to be tested. There was a local vet who had previously worked in a poultry farm so I was hopeful he would be able to help, a few month's ago I left some faeces to be tested only to return later in the day to be told that his microscope had stopped working, I won't be going back there. :
I've been rescuing and caring for pigeons for a couple of year's and already have some experience at diagnosing and treating diseases such as trichomoniasis (canker) and yeast when it's visible in the mouth but it can often occur in other parts of the digestive system such as the crop where it isn't visible so I was hoping to test for that by examining swab sample's. I will be able to test for the various species of worm and coccidiosis oocysts by doing a count, the procedure appears to be straightforward.
One of the other disease's I was hoping to diagnose is salmonella/e-coli, maybe that isn't possible, salmonella often results in a drooping wing, swollen leg joint's or boils on the wing but those symptoms cannot be used conclusively to make a diagnosis?
We're seeing more cases of PMV but that's relatively easy to diagnose by observing a pigeons behaviour, we've seen some ornithosis and pox but they aren't common avian disease's.
I think that most people would be surprised that pigeons are actually quite clean and they don't smell at all but their feet don't stay clean and the faeces can transmit some diseases, I'm always careful when it comes to hygiene using various hand washes and detergents etc.
I wasn't aware that it had B & L eyepieces.
Unfortunately the nearest avian vet sends his sample's away to be tested. There was a local vet who had previously worked in a poultry farm so I was hopeful he would be able to help, a few month's ago I left some faeces to be tested only to return later in the day to be told that his microscope had stopped working, I won't be going back there. :
I've been rescuing and caring for pigeons for a couple of year's and already have some experience at diagnosing and treating diseases such as trichomoniasis (canker) and yeast when it's visible in the mouth but it can often occur in other parts of the digestive system such as the crop where it isn't visible so I was hoping to test for that by examining swab sample's. I will be able to test for the various species of worm and coccidiosis oocysts by doing a count, the procedure appears to be straightforward.
One of the other disease's I was hoping to diagnose is salmonella/e-coli, maybe that isn't possible, salmonella often results in a drooping wing, swollen leg joint's or boils on the wing but those symptoms cannot be used conclusively to make a diagnosis?
We're seeing more cases of PMV but that's relatively easy to diagnose by observing a pigeons behaviour, we've seen some ornithosis and pox but they aren't common avian disease's.
I think that most people would be surprised that pigeons are actually quite clean and they don't smell at all but their feet don't stay clean and the faeces can transmit some diseases, I'm always careful when it comes to hygiene using various hand washes and detergents etc.
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Depending upon your location in the UK, you might check with a local microscopy club. Perhaps a member has a suitable scope he'd be willing to sell at a low/fair price?
Knowing nothing about what diseases you most want to diagnose, it's a bit hard to make a recommendation. You could probably fill us in.
Just guessing - you could likely use a stereo microscope to view pests that might be along for a ride and overall infection sites. Then I'd assume it's on to smears of the feces and higher powers. Single cell creatures in a feces smear might best be viewed with 200-400x powers and best with something like phase contrast. Bacteria, as noted earlier, will typically only show a general shape at up to 1000x and some sort of contrast (phase, darkfield . . .). Something like E-Coli can be stained and show a tiny rod shaped form at 1000x. Whether that is of any diagnostic use in pigeons, I have no idea. But the stain is the key. Viruses will be too small to see with an optical scope.
Some comments on your 110. First, it's a decent scope. Second, you want to check the power supply - it's a bit prone to failure. Third, the normal 110 head sometimes has detached prisms, but the head on yours is from a compatible earlier generation. It won't give quite as wide a view.
The objectives on the scope mix somewhat older and newer generations. Ideally, with American Optical you'd have somewhat newer plan achromats and include their very good 20x. The company also made a condenser with a single phase slider that might be handy with a 20x or 40x phase objective, as well as complete phase systems. Sadly, those will likely be a bit more. Polarization can sometimes add useful contrast and is easy and affordable to add on most scopes.
I notice there's a Zeiss phase contrast on UK Ebay for around 185 pounds. If complete and in good shape, it would be another option if pigeons are afflicted by single celled pests.
Knowing nothing about what diseases you most want to diagnose, it's a bit hard to make a recommendation. You could probably fill us in.
Just guessing - you could likely use a stereo microscope to view pests that might be along for a ride and overall infection sites. Then I'd assume it's on to smears of the feces and higher powers. Single cell creatures in a feces smear might best be viewed with 200-400x powers and best with something like phase contrast. Bacteria, as noted earlier, will typically only show a general shape at up to 1000x and some sort of contrast (phase, darkfield . . .). Something like E-Coli can be stained and show a tiny rod shaped form at 1000x. Whether that is of any diagnostic use in pigeons, I have no idea. But the stain is the key. Viruses will be too small to see with an optical scope.
Some comments on your 110. First, it's a decent scope. Second, you want to check the power supply - it's a bit prone to failure. Third, the normal 110 head sometimes has detached prisms, but the head on yours is from a compatible earlier generation. It won't give quite as wide a view.
The objectives on the scope mix somewhat older and newer generations. Ideally, with American Optical you'd have somewhat newer plan achromats and include their very good 20x. The company also made a condenser with a single phase slider that might be handy with a 20x or 40x phase objective, as well as complete phase systems. Sadly, those will likely be a bit more. Polarization can sometimes add useful contrast and is easy and affordable to add on most scopes.
I notice there's a Zeiss phase contrast on UK Ebay for around 185 pounds. If complete and in good shape, it would be another option if pigeons are afflicted by single celled pests.
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Hi Andrew,
I think it is likely that you will find a way to use a microscope to gain additional information, you are on a good way there. In our microscopy group we recently made Gram and Ziehl-Neelsen stains on bird shit smears. I will try to get a digital version of the very precise handout. By these staining methods you can't identify the bacterium but you can narrow down the choice. The staining process is messy but can still be carried out in the home lab. One of the stains is cancer-causing so should be handled with gloves and special care. More advanced fluorescence staining methods require special equipment and very expensive stains. For looking at stained slides you only need bright field contrast, a 80:1 to 100:1 oil immersion objective and high power condenser is recommended. This could be an old fashioned horse shoe microscope of standard quality which can frequently be picked up for less than 50€. A toy microscope won't do. Used microscopes usually can't be used right out but need a maintenance job on the greased guides and adjusments. If you are not good with tools it would be an advantage to buy a fully working microscope from a group or forum member who can check it in advance.
Our bat woman recently told that for the identification of ectoparasites UV fluorescence is a good method. Some types of ectoparasites like mites emit fluorescence when the animal is observed in the light of an UV lamp. Two safety remarks:
- protect your and your patients eyes
- never shine a UV lamp at a public toilet
Bob
I think it is likely that you will find a way to use a microscope to gain additional information, you are on a good way there. In our microscopy group we recently made Gram and Ziehl-Neelsen stains on bird shit smears. I will try to get a digital version of the very precise handout. By these staining methods you can't identify the bacterium but you can narrow down the choice. The staining process is messy but can still be carried out in the home lab. One of the stains is cancer-causing so should be handled with gloves and special care. More advanced fluorescence staining methods require special equipment and very expensive stains. For looking at stained slides you only need bright field contrast, a 80:1 to 100:1 oil immersion objective and high power condenser is recommended. This could be an old fashioned horse shoe microscope of standard quality which can frequently be picked up for less than 50€. A toy microscope won't do. Used microscopes usually can't be used right out but need a maintenance job on the greased guides and adjusments. If you are not good with tools it would be an advantage to buy a fully working microscope from a group or forum member who can check it in advance.
Our bat woman recently told that for the identification of ectoparasites UV fluorescence is a good method. Some types of ectoparasites like mites emit fluorescence when the animal is observed in the light of an UV lamp. Two safety remarks:
- protect your and your patients eyes
- never shine a UV lamp at a public toilet
Bob
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Andrew2007
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:19 pm
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Thanks everyone. 
The person selling the AO microscope which is on eBay in the UK decided to remove the advert as there was a error in the listing, I don't believe that. I sent a message to the seller and they've said that it wouldn't be relisted but they would take £60 or $80.
The only problem I see with an AO microscope is that there are very few part's for sale in the UK and Europe and shipping them from the US will make them much more expensive, if the power supply was faulty I would modify it to use a led if that's possible. I used to modify and upgrade flashlights as a hobby so that wouldn't be a problem.
Obviously a Zeiss Phase Contrast would be a quality instrument but what I'm finding with many microscope's for sale on eBay is that the seller's aren't describing the condition very well if at all especially that of the optics, I could of course ask but it appears to me that when they don't give this information they either know very little about them or they're trying to hide something and that really does put me off buying.
Yes, I've been trying to find out what I can on staining sample's, there's certainly a lot to learn which I will enjoy if I can produce some good results. Greasing the slides and adjustments etc wouldn't be a problem as I've always enjoyed taking things to bits.
Using a UV lamp in a public toilet would be a big mistake and so would using it in a hotel room where you intend staying, I've watched Gordon Ramsay use one when he's on the TV revamping hotel's!
The person selling the AO microscope which is on eBay in the UK decided to remove the advert as there was a error in the listing, I don't believe that. I sent a message to the seller and they've said that it wouldn't be relisted but they would take £60 or $80.
The only problem I see with an AO microscope is that there are very few part's for sale in the UK and Europe and shipping them from the US will make them much more expensive, if the power supply was faulty I would modify it to use a led if that's possible. I used to modify and upgrade flashlights as a hobby so that wouldn't be a problem.
Obviously a Zeiss Phase Contrast would be a quality instrument but what I'm finding with many microscope's for sale on eBay is that the seller's aren't describing the condition very well if at all especially that of the optics, I could of course ask but it appears to me that when they don't give this information they either know very little about them or they're trying to hide something and that really does put me off buying.
Yes, I've been trying to find out what I can on staining sample's, there's certainly a lot to learn which I will enjoy if I can produce some good results. Greasing the slides and adjustments etc wouldn't be a problem as I've always enjoyed taking things to bits.
Using a UV lamp in a public toilet would be a big mistake and so would using it in a hotel room where you intend staying, I've watched Gordon Ramsay use one when he's on the TV revamping hotel's!
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photomicro
- Posts: 207
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- Location: UK
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
I have sent you a PM Andrew, so check your inbox.
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Andrew2007
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:19 pm
Re: Microscope -Avian Disease's
Thanks Mike, I replied to your PM a couple of day's ago but I'm not sure if you received the message as I read somewhere that there are restrictions on messaging depending on how many post's a person has made when first joining the forum.