My New Microscope and need some help

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Larry060
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My New Microscope and need some help

#1 Post by Larry060 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:57 pm

I just bought Zeiss microscope and it looks a lot like this with the top lighting https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Tab ... SwhDJeKeLi. I only paid $100 locally and should get it soon. The top light has a weird round plug on it and I probably need an adapter? It also seems to have light in the base. It only came with two objectives. They are black and say Zeiss on them. a 10X and a 40X. It has room for three more and I want to get more objectives.
Questions I have: What model of Zeiss is this? What adapter do I need for the top light? What objectives should I get?

Thank you for your help,
Larry

Hobbyst46
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#2 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:50 pm

Larry060 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:57 pm
I just bought Zeiss microscope and it looks a lot like this with the top lighting https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Tab ... SwhDJeKeLi. I only paid $100 locally and should get it soon. The top light has a weird round plug on it and I probably need an adapter? It also seems to have light in the base. It only came with two objectives. They are black and say Zeiss on them. a 10X and a 40X. It has room for three more and I want to get more objectives.
Questions I have: What model of Zeiss is this? What adapter do I need for the top light? What objectives should I get?

Thank you for your help,
Larry
Congratulations, Larry ! you got yourself a Zeiss standard (16 I think) configured for fluorescence. Can be used for epi-illumination brightfield and some epi- darkfield as well.
First thing, I would check all mechanical functions and verify that they work smoothly. Focusing (coarse and fine), stage movement, condenser focusing, head assembly and rotation, nosepiece rotation and the threads of the empty nosepiece ports.

Assuming that the above are OK or have been fixed:

The top lamp house is a relatively modern HBO box that enables focusing and some alignment of the halogen bulb to produce a well collimated light beam. You need a 12V power supply to run it.
I think that:
The black slider with C9 marks serves for the excitation filter (or just a neutral density filter, or nothing).
The other slider that goes inside the quasi-spherical head serves for the emission filter.
I see one eyepiece, of a type that is not convenient in use by eyeglass wearers. A pair of Zeiss WF10X/18 will serve well - but check for delamination.

When acquiring old Zeiss lenses, check for delamination. It is not rare among Zeiss eyepieces AND objectives.
The binocular head looks fine. I would prefer a trinocular though for photography.

For trans-illumination:
The bottom original lamp is a 6V/15W incandescent, that lies inside the base and the collimating tube. That lamp must be fed from a 6V power supply (or a variable higher voltage PS). However, the lamp itself appears to be missing. A retroDiode LED lamp is a potential replacement - or, maybe, your HBO lamp house can be attached with an adapter to the bottom port, with an adapter, and provide Kohler illumination.
The microscope is missing a condenser. Probably this microscope was only used in the epi- mode. There are an inexpensive simple condenser for brightfield only, and better turret versions for darkfield, phase contrast etc - againa depending on planned usage and budget.
Enjoy!

Edit: Sorry, have mistakenly referred to the microscope shown in the eBay link and its photos. Revised.
Last edited by Hobbyst46 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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75RR
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#3 Post by 75RR » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:53 pm

We would need a photo of your actual microscope to tell you which model of Standard it might be.

They sometimes have a sticker on them that will tell you what it started out as, but as the Standards are part of a modular system owners sometime change the configuration over time.

As to the plug, again a photo will help with what it plugs into.

Do post images as soon as you can.

P.S. Screen shots of the microscope if you bought it on Craigslist will do until until you can take your own.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#4 Post by Larry060 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:28 pm

Thank you to you both.

I will post pictures when I get the microscope but it looks almost like the one on ebay that I linked to.

Larry

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#5 Post by Larry060 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:44 am

I got my Zeiss microscope and I am so excited. Here are some information on the microscope.
The top light lamp has 46 80 32-9902 HBO 50W
The eyepieces say Zeiss KPL W 12,5 x 18 on both but one is fatter with numbers on it's side.
The objectives say 10/0,22 and the other 40/0,85 Oel 160/-
On the bottom I found Carl Zeiss West Germany 47 09 16 9903/29. It also has 120V 20VA, and where the light bulb goes, it has 6v 10W I plugged in the cord and the bottom light lights up by turning the knob on hte side.
I don't think I would know what delamination looks like but everything looks pretty clear.
There is also a condenser under the stage which has 1,3 and a knob can put it the path or out.

I took some pictures but I don't know how to post it here.

I found instructions at the top.
P1010003-2.jpg
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P1010001-2.jpg
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Last edited by Larry060 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#6 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:24 am

Congratulations again !

Revision of my previous response: the top lamp appears to be a 50W high-pressure mercury lamp. It is useful for epi-fluorescence, and safety measures must be taken, since such lamps emit strong UV. Appropriate filters should be inserted into the light path. Never try to look directly at the light beam. Also, there are safety rules regarding the handling the bulb, if it needs to be replaced.
The special cord is used to connect the lamp to a specific power supply. These power supply have an ignition push-button and sometimes a counter for working-hours, since the life of the bulb is shorter than that of ordinary bulbs.
The condenser with the 1,3 flip-out lens is a relatively simple condenser, useful for bright field. The top lens should be flipped in, except for low magnifications (10X and lower).
In the Zeiss catalog there is a 40x0.85 oil Ph3 Zeiss objective that is a phase contrast, might be good for fluorescence in view of the large 0.85 NA (although an NA of 1 or higher would be much better).
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#7 Post by Larry060 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Thank you Hobbyst46. You are right the objective says 40/0,85 instead of 0,65 and I corrected it above. But it doesn't say Ph3. There are some glass with different colors on them on the slide thing on the back (looks like light blue) and color glass in the round thing on the side. I took it out and it has glass filters on one end but nothing on the other end. The focus knob seem to work fine. The big knob raises an lowers the platform but when I turn the small knob, after it turns a ways, it starts to move the large knob with it. I assume the large knob is the coarse focus and the small knob is the fine focus? Is this normal? The stage platform moves back and forth and left and right when I turn the knobs, so they seem to be working good. The condenser moves up and down but sticks at the bottom and I have to push it up a little to get it going again. I cleaned up the outside but haven't cleaned the glass parts yet. I can clean those like glass on a camera? Blow it off and then lens cleaner and tissues? It's probably not as delicate as I am treating it but I don't want to mess up anything.

I would like to get more objectives since there are three more openings. What would you suggest? Should I stick with the black Zeiss objectives? Can I mix and match? I see a lot of Zeiss silver ones. Can I also use other objectives like Nikon, American Optical and Olympus? You say the condenser is basic, should I upgrade it and with what? Sorry for so many questions. I've read a lot on the internet but I'm sure some maybe wrong and I don't want to waste money chasing things.

I need some slides. I see prepared slides are rather inexpensive and I can get blank ones and coverslips and oil. What else will I need to get going?

Thank you again,
Larry

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#8 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:18 pm

Larry060 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:14 pm
Thank you Hobbyst46. You are right the objective says 40/0,85 instead of 0,65 and I corrected it above. But it doesn't say Ph3. There are some glass with different colors on them on the slide thing on the back (looks like light blue) and color glass in the round thing on the side. I took it out and it has glass filters on one end but nothing on the other end. The focus knob seem to work fine. The big knob raises an lowers the platform but when I turn the small knob, after it turns a ways, it starts to move the large knob with it. I assume the large knob is the coarse focus and the small knob is the fine focus? Is this normal? The stage platform moves back and forth and left and right when I turn the knobs, so they seem to be working good. The condenser moves up and down but sticks at the bottom and I have to push it up a little to get it going again. I cleaned up the outside but haven't cleaned the glass parts yet. I can clean those like glass on a camera? Blow it off and then lens cleaner and tissues? It's probably not as delicate as I am treating it but I don't want to mess up anything.

I would like to get more objectives since there are three more openings. What would you suggest? Should I stick with the black Zeiss objectives? Can I mix and match? I see a lot of Zeiss silver ones. Can I also use other objectives like Nikon, American Optical and Olympus? You say the condenser is basic, should I upgrade it and with what? Sorry for so many questions. I've read a lot on the internet but I'm sure some maybe wrong and I don't want to waste money chasing things.

I need some slides. I see prepared slides are rather inexpensive and I can get blank ones and coverslips and oil. What else will I need to get going?

Thank you again,
Larry
The colored glass discs are filters. Since they are installed in the sliders, I believe they are specific for fluorescence.
You did not mention your objects of interest, so I assume that the starting point is basic observation of cells, protists, insect parts or plant parts.

I would first ignore the fluorescence part (that is a separate know-how section) and read a basic short tutorial on microsopy, just brightfield microscopy. In any web accessible tutorial. The Zeiss Standard operation manual is another good source. Available from the Zeiss web archives.

I would prepare a simple slide for initial hands-on and eyes-on experience. If you have a blank slide and coverslip, prepare an onion skin slide or a slide of cells scraped with the finger from the inner surface of the cheek. Or simpler than that: an insect (housefly, mosquito, hoverfly, any bug, not a bee please) wing, flatly laid on a piece of very thin rigid transparent piece of plastic (e.g. from a CD storage box) and secured as flatly as possible with a tiny drop of glue or with cellotape. Just for preliminary checking of focusing and illumination.

Cleaning: glass parts are at least as sensitive as camera lenses. Stat by blowing air and gentle brushing if necessary.
For stubborn oil/grease/dust stains: breath on the glass, and while it is still wet, wipe gently with a lens tissue or KimWipe. Single stroke wipes, not rubbing. Never wipe a dry surface.
Still stubborn dirt - wipe with a Q-tip moistened with isopropanol or petrol ether - very sparingly ! Never soak anything in solvent.
One of the best cleaning manuals is "The Clean Microscope". From the web.

Additional objectivesI would recommend to stick with Zeiss west. Other brands - Olympus or Nikon 160mm objectives are usable, but likely will not be exactly parfocal with the Zeiss objective, and they will show aberrations, especially chromatic maleffects. Such aberrations will be mainly unpleasant in camera images.
American Optical - some (or perhaps many) of them are infinity corrected optics (marked with the infinity sign) so not compatible with your microscope.
Very old objectives might be incompatible due to a vastly different parfocality distance; say, old Olympus objectives are ~36mm vs the 45mm of the Zeiss standard.
If in doubt about the compatibility of the objective, you might want to post an image of the objective or the text that is printed on it in the forum, for identification and comments by other members who might know.
In general, the objectives should be for 160mm tube length (they are marked accordingly). Plan or Neofluar are good and not too expensive. A 4x objective for the Zeiss Standard is hard to find. A 6,3X is less rare. The Plan 25X0.45 and Plan 40X0.65 or Neofluar 40X0.75 are all used dry, without immersion oil. The appropriate catalog for all of these is "Zeiss Optical Systems".
The outer look of the objective is less important -what matters are the marks on it: Magnification, numerical aperture, oil (or nothing), 160mm (not infinity), coverslip (marked as 0.17) or optional coverslip (marked as - ) all these are printed or carved onto the objective. And the Plan, Planapo, Neofluar marks - if none of those, it means that the objective is achromat.

Phase contrast objectives are good value and important for viewing low-contrast objects, yet to achieve phase contrast one needs an appropriate condenser. As mentioned in the above catalog.
Hope that helps.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#9 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:18 pm

Larry060 wrote:...delamination...
Delamination in the eyepieces can sometimes be visible when you remove the eyepiece from the microscope and look through it at a house lamp (a halogen light for example), some regions of the field of view appear to be tinted differently, greenish or grayish vs the "normal" yellow tint. It can be verified by inspection of the eyepiece with a stereo microscope, focusing on each glass element in turn.
Delamination in the objectives can be identified by replacing the eyepiece with a phase telescope and focusing on the back focal plane of the objective and on other elements, one by one.
When searching and locating an eyepiece or objective or other optical part on eBay, be sure to have the seller confirm that the item is free from delamination (and fungus).
Larry060 wrote:...condenser...
Your cndenser is fine for basic brightfield microscopy. For high-end photography and for other illumination and contrast methods - darkfield, phase contrast - I would replace it with a turret (and preferrably achromat-aplanat) condenser. Those are not cheap, so only when need arises...

If your focus of interest is fluorescence, your present condenser will suffice, since brightfield will be used only to locate the object on the slide; in the epi-fluorescence setup, the condenser for the top illumination is the objective itself.
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#10 Post by 75RR » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:33 pm

Congratulations, it looks to be in very nice condition.

Label indicates it is a Standard 16

I would remove the epi-fluorescence attachment with the HBO Lamphouse for now and connect the binocular head directly.

You can store it for future use (when you are more experienced) or sell it and use the money to buy some of the things that you need/are going to use.

To remove, loosen the sprung screw on the side and push the intermediate tube towards it and then tilt the back end up. Do the same with the binocular head. Remember to keep hold of it at all times.

The condenser it has is fine for now but you might want to get a Phase condenser to replace it at some point. The simpler ones are not expensive, particularly if you are patient.

Phase objectives can be used at a pinch for brightfield as well - so you get the best of both worlds.

A couple of links you may find of use:

http://www.science-info.net/docs/zeiss/ ... ystems.pdf

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... denser.pdf
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#11 Post by MicroBob » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:23 pm

Hi Larry,

you bought a very nice microscope there-congratulations!
These HBO lamps really are dangerous. With the wrong or damaged filters you could get high levels of UV in your eyes or a nice sunburn from stray light. These bulbs also can explode with sets free som mercury and is accompanied with a potentially deafening bang. These epi condensers can easily be converted to LED and used with harmless blue or green excitation light.

These black achromats are quite good for an achromat with fairly modern coatings and good contrast. Zeiss might have understated their performance a bit. The 40:1 0,85 is a quite good and very useful objective as it is a medium magnification oil immersion objective. When you use a 100:1 oil immersion objective and loose your object it is difficult to find it again due to the small field of view of the 100:1 objective. A dry 40:1 is problematic as it would dip into the oil where it doesn't belong. So this is a rare and very useful objective - keep it.
If photography of flat objects is high on your list I would recommend "Plan" objectives. For visual observation or plancton the planarity of the image is not important.
Most used are generally the 10:1 and 40:1 dry objectives. A 2,5 Plan would be nice and a 100:1 oil immersion objective if you want to use oil immersion at all. Some microscopist do this never, some all the time.

Apart from Zeiss West 160mm objectives you can use these objectives:
- Zeiss Jena 45mm parfocal length 160mm objectives (lower power objectives not perfectly parfocal)
- Leitz 160mm objectives (EF, NPL Fluotar, Plan series, very good objectives, perfectly parfocal)
- Leitz 45mm parfocal 170mm objectives (lower power objectives not perfectly parfocal, difficult to detect)

Optical systems for finite tube length microscopes usually place som colour correction into the eyepieces. The above go together well. Olympus would fit less well to Zeiss, Nikron had a CF series with completely incompatible colour correction. If you happen to get one of these objective in your fingers you could just try it out. Colour errors would show towards the border.

The different eyepieces allow to set them up parfocal.

Bob

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#12 Post by Larry060 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:56 pm

Thank you very much Hobbyst64, 75RR and Bob for all your help and suggestions. I'm copying and pasting this good information into a document for reference. You all are a great group.

Yes, until I get to learn more about this microscope, I will remove the top lighting and concentrate on the regular microscope side. Sounds like the phase condenser is the way to go since it deals with so many techniques. Thank you 75RR for the references.

Larry

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#13 Post by Larry060 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:18 pm

Here is a Zeiss Phase condenser. Will it work on my microscope? It also says it has darkfield.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Pha ... 0667.m2042

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#14 Post by 75RR » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:34 pm

Larry060 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:18 pm
Here is a Zeiss Phase condenser. Will it work on my microscope? It also says it has darkfield.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Pha ... 0667.m2042
Yes it will. Good luck!
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#15 Post by Larry060 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:52 pm

I didn't bid on the Zeiss condenser. I'll just stick to what I have until I get to know how to use it. I did get three objectives. Someone recommended Zeiss neofluars and I was able to get some.

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#16 Post by Larry060 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:49 pm

I would like to take pictures of what I see through my microscope. I see some posts where you use a cell phone but I would like to attach my Canon EOS. What are the best options to be able to do this?

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#17 Post by 75RR » Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:03 am

If you are going to take photos though a binocular eyepiece then a phone (with camera) is much more practical.

If you are going to use a large and inevitably heavy camera then you really need a Trinocular Head.

There are two types:

the Jentsch 100/0 & 0/100 (100 eyepiece and 0 phototube or 0 eyepiece and 100 phototube)

or the Siedentopf 100/0 & 20/80 (100 eyepiece and 0 phototube or 20 eyepiece and 80 phototube)

that is the first step, you will then need to decide if you want to use direct projection or afocal, that will require a little more work.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=882

The first photo is of a Jentsch, catalogue number: 47 30 26 (they also come in beige). The second photo is of a Siedentopf catalogue number: 47 30 28
Attachments
Trinocular heads.jpg
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#18 Post by Larry060 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:17 am

Thank you 75RR. Maybe I can put the camera on a tripod looking through the eyepiece until I get a proper head. Would that work? Thank you for the link. I have a lot of reading to do.

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#19 Post by Rossf » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:20 am

Hey Larry060 I missed this post-glad to see you got a nice scope-things get really fun when a camera gets attached-trinocular heads can sometimes take a while to find (at a reasonable price!)-on my BH I e set up a “blind” head with just a phototube-no head at all-and work from a screen so I know exactly where something is in regards to the sensor-here’s a pic to demonstrate-might work for you as well-or have both options!
Glad you got started-have fun
Regards ross
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#20 Post by 75RR » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:37 am

Maybe I can put the camera on a tripod looking through the eyepiece until I get a proper head. Would that work?
It will. That would be the afocal setup (where the camera with lens replaces your eye)

I did that for a few months until I sourced a reasonably priced trinocular head.

It is a bit awkward to share a binocular head with a camara, hard to overestimate the convenience/bliss of a trinocular head when one gets one after that experience. :)


Rossf's method will work but to set things up correctly you would need to achieve a virtual parfocality.

That basically entails setting the microscope up by achieving Köhler (using binocular head) and then swopping over to the direct phototube without changing the setup,

just adjusting the camera/phototube (as you would do with a trinocular head).
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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#21 Post by Larry060 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:49 pm

Thank you Rossf. I am happy with the microscope I was able to get. Thank you for the photo tube idea.

Thanks 75RR. I was trying the tripod method and it was very difficult trying to get it set up. I could not look down the other eyepiece to search and focus and even though my camera has a viewing screen, it seems to small. I will search for a trinocular head.

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Re: My New Microscope and need some help

#22 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:13 pm

Larry060 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:49 pm
I will search for a trinocular head.
An excellent choice.
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