How can eBay seller 'have it's cake, and eat it too?'

[charlie g]

Hi all, today ( 4/4/18) eBay prompted my personal e-mail with a seller alert...but this major seller played with terms: "used=perhaps cosmetic blemishes, but item functions as expected to"...and the insult of at very end paragraph of : "item description"...the seller prominently listed: " AS IS CONDITION"!???

The specific eBay item I have been thinking about purchase for...has triggered a few recent and helpful email alerts to this items offer by major sellers.

How is it, forum folk, that a seller may list an item as: "used"...yet down at last description of item state in bold print: "AS IS Item"? This muddies the terms of eBay categories.

Perhaps last year I still encountered alerts of: " sold for parts...item not working"...or : "we have no means of testing if this item works...but it was purchased from a working environment".

But today (4/4/18) I encountered at least three 'major eBay microscopy sellers' offering the item I desired...listing ( with double speak in my firm opine of eBay category for term: used)...listing an item as: "used"...yet at very end of item description listing: " as is"..??

Perhaps eBay tracking of my fanciful visits was at play...latter today...I was email alerted to this item I want...listed same good price-point for me...but item listed as: "used"...with no end nonsense about: "as is". And so I have now purchased this item from a seller.

Please offer comments forum folk...is it an abuse to offer wares as: "used"..yet at the final sentence state: "as is"? It used to be quite clear on eBay terms: "used items still function as expected"....there still exists a specific category: "as is..no means of testing items function"....comments requested when you have the time...thanks all. Charlie guevara

[desertrat]

Hi Charlie, this is Rick (desertrat2170) from the Yahoo group.

I've been noticing these "As is" listings, too. It seems most of them are from surplus dealers. I also have noticed a correlation between "As is" and "Returns not accepted" in the description. I think the "As is" makes it more difficult for a buyer to open a dispute with a seller for a broken or non-functional item being "Not as described".

I usually ignore such listings unless the item is so cheap I'm willing to take a gamble on it, knowing I can't return it for a refund.

[charlie g]

thanks for your comments, Rick...( yup, I'm: icecilliate/ Charlie, in yahoogroups).

Specifically the eBay platform insists/ defines condition: "used" as..perhaps cosmetic wear spots, but item functions properly as designed to perform.".

The category of: "as is"/ " no means was this item tested"...this is far from designated category of: "used condition".... "as is condition" is totally different from the halo of: "used condition".

I wonder why sellers who 'blur the categories' are permitted to do so? I understand that the eBay platform is reluctant to police sellers who 'blur category: "used but working as intended"...and the caveat for seller of:"as is condition". I sense eBay platform wants commerce with the least impediments to sellers.

But I insist terming an item for sale as: "used" , a firmly defined eBay category...i.e. the item functions as designed to do...this should preclude/ not permit the final mention of: "as is condition".

Fresh from frozen seafood a similar: oxymoron I sense , to eBay seller plying items under condition of: "used"...yet at very end of item description noting: " as is condition".

Is it all silly politics? I have no intention of pitching to eBay these contradictions of sellers abuse of eBay terms. Charlie guevara

[PeteM]

I believe what Ebay pays attention to, in disputes, is the actual listing category. These include "new," "used," and "as is." Text within the ad, maybe not so much.

There's at least one Ebay dealer with thousands of microscope-related items, all categorized "as is." Having bought once from this seller -- the lens (described in the ad as having clear optics) was junk.

I suppose it's difficult for the sellers as well. Some buyers are crooks. Other sellers won't really know what they have -- seeing a light at the end of a tunnel (or tube) is pretty much it. So these sellers are surprised when a buyer isn't happy about scratches, oil in the lens, delamination, etc.

I had one microsocope shipped to me (after a couple weeks delay) in a cardboard box. Not a bit of packing - just dropped into a box, taped up lid, sent rattling across the country.

Another seller offered a mixed lot of a dozen or so eyepieces -- dropping them all into a single very used baggy with the end of one tube randomly smashing the lens of another -- and then packing assorted plastic grocery bags around that. Two of the dozen lenses were cracked, jammed as they were together. That seller (mostly of toys) was incensed when I gave him positive feedback along the lines of "Glad to have these, but could have been better packed." He sent a profane email insisting they'd been packed very well.

It's hard for both buyers and sellers with things like microscopes. That said, it's still the best source we have for piecing bits of a microscope back together.

[charlie g]

Hello peter ( germ spore the 'handle' in other forum years ago?)...yes, yes, I love eBay platform..now that I am rural/finger lakes/US based.

I simply insist the still clearly defined eBay category of: "used condition= functions as designed" ...not be eroded by eBay sellers who at end of their item description state: "as is condition".

I sense it not in eBay platforms interest to correct this abuse of 'item condition' terminology. Charlie guevara

[Tom Jones]

They can't.

I expect an item to be as the Ebay description states. Ebay has very clear descriptions, and sellers are held to them. Used does NOT mean "as is" regardless of what the seller says. If they say "for parts or repair" then you're done. They can't sell crap as "used" and hide behind "as is" or "not tested" unless you let them. "No returns" doesn't really mean that either if something is not as described or damaged in shipping. It's their responsibility to package it adequately. The only time I'll accept shipping damage is if I decline insurance. I never ship without insurance and tracking, and it's not a choice I let the buyer make. It's always included in the shipping cost.

I also take cell phone photos as I open the package to document condition upon arrival. I'll include them with a note to the seller asking for a full refund and return shipping. If the seller doesn't reply, or declines cooperation, file a case and let Ebay decide.

Ebay can get VERY cranky with sellers. It is NOT in their interest to let sellers get away with lying or misrepresentation.

I've sent a lot of stuff back over the years. I've never lost.

[zzffnn]

Sorry to hear that, Charlie G.

You should fight this case, and report the seller to eBay and Paypal, under "item not as described". You lose nothing, just a few minutes of time, even if you lose the dispute. Buyers usually win, if you fight hard.

I agree with PeteM, mostly. But I won't leave that broken eyepiece seller a positive feedback like he did(unless I paid junk price); I am just not that nice.

Note though, technically, if you are particular with legalese, "used" item that functions well can still be sold "as is", if that "as is" means "as it is in its currently good condition". "As is" can be "currently good" or "currently terrible". That phrase is itself neutral and its meaning depends on how you interpret it, based on context. Your context, as you should argue with eBay, is that "as is" under context of "used/functional" means "functional".

That said, I usually do not buy an item that has "as is" description anywhere.

Edit: I agree with Tom Jones too. I have fought many eBay disputes as buyer and have never lost. Ignore "No returns" and fight the case under "item not as described" (which really means "seller lied").

[75RR]

I believe that some sellers are innocently using 'used' as a substitute for pre-owned, or not new.
They are seemingly unaware that in ebay 'used' has a specific (perhaps even legal) meaning.
There are others, particularly those who routinely add 'as is' to what they sell, that deliberately muddy the waters.

My favorite is 'unable to test' - posted by sellers that regularly sell microscopes ....

Now that I think about it, perhaps it is Ebay that has muddied the waters a bit by defining 'used' how they have.

So the choices are?
a) not working - for parts
b) in good working order - used
c) new

[MichaelG.]

Having previously been involved in the sale and purchase of aircraft ... I can be reasonably confident in saying that 'AS IS' is intended to override all other descriptions; it is perhaps the ultimate statement of caveat emptor because it disclaims all responsibility for condition.

It is a generally understood [and legally acceptable] term in 'Business to Business' dealings, where both parties have 'eyes wide open' and the deal is covered by a Contract.

in the ebay situation I would always take it as a strong indication that the item could be useless to me ... and I would only purchase if I was willing to take that risk.

MichaelG.
.
Edit: From the horse's mouth:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Sold-As-Is-A ... 337/g.html

Edit: Please see subsequent comment by 77RR

[75RR]

Edit: From the horse's mouth:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Sold-As-Is-A ... 337/g.html

Hardly the horses mouth. This is not posted by Ebay but by Azod who is an Ebay seller.

So not Ebay policy - just a sellers tip!

[Hobbyst46]

Since my activity in eBay is minimal, I think that the definitions should be very simple and unequivocal and clear to all, not only to folks that can swim in the legalistic sea (pool?).
So in my opinion, and similar to some of the other responses here, "as is", beyond all nuances, simply translates to the innocent potential buyer as "it is yours, the buyer, from now on I am not responsible - unless it was carelessly packaged or not received at all".
In other words, "as is" should be automatically re-defined by eBay as "condition unknown" and override any other descriptive text.
So I support 75RR's idea of three fixed options a,b, c as above.

[MichaelG.]

Edit: From the horse's mouth:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Sold-As-Is-A ... 337/g.html

Hardly the horses mouth. This is not posted by Ebay but by Azod who is an Ebay seller.

So not Ebay policy - just a sellers tip!

As you wish ...
My comments prior to the 'edit' stand.

MichaelG.

[charlie g]

Thank you all for very refreshing, very useful explanations of how you each approach our eBay world nitche market.

I feel validated by Tom Joneses clear and firm sense of eBay rules and eBay dispute resolution rules. Yes, yes, Fann, I have had disputes rather quickly resolved by eBay in my favor a number of times ( over the years, PayPal also has resolved disputes for me quickly).

So I sense we all agree that the term: "as is" trumps any level of recourse for a buyer...we seem to all agree that it is flatly wrong to list eBay items as used..but then coyly slip in the term: "as is " at end of the description...."used condition" on eBay implies item functions as designed to work.

Thanks for that eBay sellers thoughts (?Azod?) of how to sell imperfect items on eBay, MichaelG...indeed it is akin 'to a launched bomerang' when a seller paints over item problems in vending items!

Perhaps ( as Fann suggests it only takes minutes to do so) I should leave a seller my pointed concerns when I visit their stores and see: "used condition"...but at end of item description: "sold as is"?

But as you all notice...my spelling, my use of words leaves much to be improved...I am a poor candidate to police eBay sellers for their use of terminology. Again, thanks for this thoughtful discussion all. Charlie Guevara..My Olympus 10X DIC/Nomarski prism objective attachment has been purchased from a seller not using term: "as is" in item description.

[wporter]

Charlie raises some good points.

As buyers, I think we would all like to see the following categories:

a) new, unused;
b) looks pretty used, but works well;
c) seems to work OK, but needs lubrication and/or adjustment;
d) doesn't work, has one or more parts missing, broken, or frozen, needs parts or significant fixing (otherwise known as 'as-is).

This would enable us as users, to decide, based on our resources and expertise, to make a better decision whether to buy the item or not.

The problems are, however:

1) the differences between b) and c) or between c) and d) can be very subjective; talk about a legal nightmare! And some buyers are, let's face it, overly fussy. They expect to get a like-new part for 1 penny on the dollar ( I have a neighbor who is like the guy in the "Modern Family" episode, a buyer at a garage sale who argues down the price of an ashtray from 25 cents to 10 cents, and then pulls out a hundred dollar bill and asks if the seller can give him change!). A set of subjective categories would just open the door to endless fighting between buyers and sellers; therefore ebay's new vs used simple distinction, hopefully fleshed-out by the detailed description or communications between buyer and seller before the sale.

2) a realistic evaluation by the seller can require time and expertise that some of these sellers don't have; especially the big medical/industrial surplus houses. I've visited some of these, and they make their money by moving inventory through (and ofttimes paid very little for it), and often the stuff is stacked up on shelves in a warehouse, and the help is often a warehouseman, a guy with a forklift or whatever, and neither he nor the owner really closely inspect the item. Most of them certainly are not microscope repairmen.

3) Some really good deals can be made via upfront communications, rather than wishful thinking based on specious categories. If it's a buy-it-now item, offer the seller a lot less than they're asking; they will usually initially price things way high, asking for the moon, in case they have an ignorant buyer, or one from an institution that has lots of money and doesn't waste time dickering. So they may sell it to a knowledgable buyer at a lot less, just to move the part out, especially if you point out deficiencies in a nice way. There are a few microscope parts vendors on ebay that offer tremendous inventorys of parts; virtually all the prices are inflated, but some friendly dickering often works wonders, and many will accept much lower offers for buy-it-now items, especially if some intelligent inquiries are made upfront. Treat the sellers like you would want to be treated if you were the seller, and they probably will be generous.

I have had a few instances where the seller sent out a significantly misrepresented part, and when I asked them how to return it, just sent another one in better shape and forfeited the original item. They will do almost anything to preserve their high feedback status. So, overall (and having sold a few items on ebay myself), I think that sellers generally have a much tougher time of it on ebay than buyers do.

[apochronaut]

Charlie g. I owe you one for the illuminator. Want to reveal what you are looking for? either here or in a p.m.? Maybe I have one and if not on the level of a DDE fitted with apochromats , I'll send it off to you if I do.