PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

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MicroBob
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PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#1 Post by MicroBob » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:17 am

Hi together,

I place this in a separate thread: From PZO there are upper DIC units named MPI-2, MPI-3 (the one I have) and MPI-5 (looks different than the two before). The revolver condenser seems to be always KPI-2. In the internet I found a description of the newest system for the Biolar, with MPI-5, KPI-2 and additional slit condenser.
The MPI-3 head seems to be the least common and I haven't found anything about it in the internet
.
Does someone have information what the difference between these three upper DIC units is? Does someone have a manual for the system with my MPI-3 head?

Bob

apochronaut
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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#2 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:04 pm

I have an English language manual sent directly to me from the factory in 1989, not very long before they shut down. It is however dated 1976. Presumably, it was still the most up to date manual they had at the time; in English.

The model # MPI 3 Zs 3 is listed as the slit condenser, MPI 3 Zs 4 is listed as the polarizer that fits below it and also below the KP1 2 Zs 1, polarizing interference condenser, when fitted with the polarizer. From this, I would garner that MPI 3 is the slit condenser and KPI 2 the rotating prism condenser, yet you say you have an interference head that has MPI-3 stamped on it?

The interference head is listed as UPI Zs 1. The interference head that I have has no model # on it but looks identical to the one pictured in the manual and as well, resembles most that I see listed for sale. There is what appears to be an older design, with a slightly different dovetail and a shorter silver coloured prism selection lever, with the selection markings on the top center, rather than on the top edge. Those appear to be the only differences.

I believe that the Zs 1 designation relates to the instrument that the parts are adapted to fit on, in this case the BIOLAR Zs .
Last edited by apochronaut on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#3 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:11 pm

My interference head has a serial # of 01384. Here is # 01385 for sale.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PZO-Microscope ... Swug5c~nWW

Note that there is in fact no model # on the unit. The seller is calling it MPI-5 but has no real info. to back that up. The manual says it is a UPI, with no qualifying series, other than it's application to a specific stand , such as Zs 1.

MicroBob
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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#4 Post by MicroBob » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:00 pm

Hi Phil,
from what I know the head from the ebay link is the MPI-5 with a different type of lever and some other differences to the MPI-3 and MPI-2 heads.

My DIC head is really named MPI-3.

I have seen complete kits with box that include one head and two condensers, slit and revolver. This would probably mean that there is no special head needed for the slit condenser.

Bob

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#5 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:07 pm

Does your head actually say MPI 3 on it?


The standard kit contains the following; from rear left to front right as the box is opened away from you with literal codes and numerical part numbers.
Multiple nosepiece RO4 Zs 1, 27500701 : Soft Brushes ZN-57/MPC/15-01090, 0.9.07.0100 : Flannel Cloth IA-No.1 ZN-57/MPC/15-01124, 0.9.08.0100 : Condenser with slit MPI 3 Zs 3, 25510703 : Polarizer Enclosed MPI 3 Zs 4, 25510704 :
Standard Plate PPI/100 Zs 1-01, 28310001 : Interference Filter 546nm Fi 546 Zs 1, 28580701 : 10X SK eyepiece OK10SK Zs 1, 41200701 : Interference Head UPI Zs 1, 25520701 : 10X SK eyepiece OK10SK Zs 1, 41200701 : Interference Filter 590nm Fi 590 Zs 1 : Polarizing Interference Condenser KPI 2 Zs 1, 26400701 : Micrometric Eyepiece Plate 10/100 MOL 10/100 cz 1-01 : Auxillary Microscope MPh Zs 1, 26320701 : Polarizing interference X10 Objective Ob 103 PI Zs, 3720 : Polarizing interference X20 objective Ob 203 PI Zs, 3721 : Polarizing interference X40 objective Ob 403 PI Zs, 3722 : Polarizing interference X100 objective Ob 1003 PI Zs, 3723 : Key KPI 2 Zs 1-7, 26400807 : Condenser key KF 15 Zs 2, 25860702 : Technical Description, 23922980 : Guarantee Card, 25522998.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#6 Post by MicroBob » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:03 pm

apochronaut wrote:Does your head actually say MPI 3 on it?
Yes it does.
Apart from the name it looks like the MPI-2.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#7 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Any chance of seeing a picture of where the model # is located? I can't find any on my example.. Where is it located?

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#8 Post by MicroBob » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Here 3 pictures of my MB 30.
The microscope and the two DIC components were bought separately. I just got the original trino tube too. :D
Generally I'm somewhat allergic against non-black microscopes, but I really like this one.
In the background is the bay window I'm working right now - last project to finish my lab/office room.
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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#9 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:43 pm

Nice microscope. Are those the Microplans?

So, on the body of mine and the one pictured in the Biolar DIC manual , instead of one wide grooved ring, there are 7 very narrow grooved rings. Mine seems like it might be a bit taller too. The physical height of it's black body is 81mm and I can't see the knurled wheel for rotating the polarizer in and out on yours, which on mine is under the dovetail clamping screw.

Just the PZO Warzawa logo, Made in Poland and 01384 on the top. No other marks, other than the 1 2 3 0 for the prism lever. I have looked everywhere, even took off the top.
Perhaps they discontinued your model and transferred the model code to the slit condenser.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#10 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:54 pm

In looking through the bibliography of the PZO Biolar Polarizing Interference Microscope manual Pg. 91-95, I see that a certain number of the entries refer to an MPI5 microscope. Not an MPI5 interference head but a Microscope Polarizing Interference 5. I'm going to guess that your MPI3 is just a different model of microscope; a Microscope Polarizing Interference 3.
The MPI5 may have been the Biolar but they also made the slightly lesser Studar L and a Studar M . I'm pretty sure the Studar was also offered as a DIC fitted unit. I have a technical sheet tucked away somewhere. My thinking now goes that the MPI3 marking may just be for a different system used on the Studar M or maybe even a less elaborate system used on the Biolar too.

Does your MPI3 have a built in polarizer?

Also, Bob, check page 6 of the Biolar manual. They specifically mention the UPI polarizing interference attachment.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#11 Post by MicroBob » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:51 am

Hi Phil,
thank you for looking into this. My MPI-3 has an analyser too that is operated from the open side of the stand.
When I shortly tried the setup I followed the description in the (newer?) Biolar manual and set the polarizer and analyzer accordingly. With a bit of fiddling on the controls I got a promising looking DIC image with adjustable background colour and little gradient. But this was just a quick try.
My microscope is named MB 30 - this could also be the source of the "MPI-3" name.
I can't relly imagine that they made different DIC sets for lesser microscope stands. The cost of the DIC set will have been a lot higher than that of a Biolar so saving on the stand wouldn't have saved much. With the polarizers DIC also needs quite a bit of light so the simplest course microscopes wouldn't have had enough power.
It is possible that my MPI-3 head has less height than your MPI-5 head. I read in one forum that the MPI-5 might be better suited for a wide range different objectives, but I don't know how dependable this bit of information is.

I try to make some more pictures and measure the height this evening.

Bob

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#12 Post by zzffnn » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:53 am

An eBay seller from Poland told me the same thing: MPI-5 is supposed to be better. I did not ask why and did not buy it though.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#13 Post by apochronaut » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:28 am

MicroBob wrote:Hi Phil,
thank you for looking into this. My MPI-3 has an analyser too that is operated from the open side of the stand.
When I shortly tried the setup I followed the description in the (newer?) Biolar manual and set the polarizer and analyzer accordingly. With a bit of fiddling on the controls I got a promising looking DIC image with adjustable background colour and little gradient. But this was just a quick try.
My microscope is named MB 30 - this could also be the source of the "MPI-3" name.
I can't relly imagine that they made different DIC sets for lesser microscope stands. The cost of the DIC set will have been a lot higher than that of a Biolar so saving on the stand wouldn't have saved much. With the polarizers DIC also needs quite a bit of light so the simplest course microscopes wouldn't have had enough power.
It is possible that my MPI-3 head has less height than your MPI-5 head. I read in one forum that the MPI-5 might be better suited for a wide range different objectives, but I don't know how dependable this bit of information is.

I try to make some more pictures and measure the height this evening.

Bob
The price of a 100 watt Biolar in 1989 was right around $2,000 CDN., with hardwood case a DF condenser , a 5 position nosepiece with 5 planachros and 3 sets of plan compensating eyepieces. With the polarizing interference contrast system, it was about another 1000.00. Here is a 2 page product brochure for the microscope. The standard base is only 15 watts, and is the base upon which quite a few of the polarizing interference systems were fitted. I think the Studar L and M also had the same illumination set up. I have those brochures too. I'll see if I can find them. Perhaps the polarizing interference system listed is a different one.

Note that in the brochure above, the interference polarizer is listed as UPI but the simple polarizing device, which I take to be a more simple polarizer/analyzer , is listed as a UPO1.
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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#14 Post by MicroBob » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Hi Phil,
the I was wrong, I would have expected a different relation between the prices of the microscope and DIC kit.

Bob

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#15 Post by MicroBob » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am

Hi together,
as promised a couple of pictures of the MPI-3 and two measurements.
The height of the head is 66,25mm flange to flange. The black part alone is ca. 61,25mm.
There is no scale on the screw at the slide as it would be with a micrometer.

Bob
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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#16 Post by donnw » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Hi All:

Fairly new to group. I have a PZO MB30 with MPI2 and KPI-2. I have a couple questions that hopefully some of the experienced folks here may be able to answer:

- what is the difference between an MPI2 and a MPI3 and is one "better" than the other?

- What kind of objectives should be used with MPI-2 and KPI-2 for DIC? I've heard 'red stripe' objectives are for DIC and I've heard they are not for DIC. (If not, what ARE they for?)

- I have very little info on this setup - could not find any PDF user guides or similar - just some articles. I understand that there is a large (around 100 page) manual for the Biolar which shares many of the same accessories; does anyone have a pdf copy of this or any manuals I could get a copy of? (PM to donn (at) digitalmonastery (dot) org)

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer or links you can point me to.

Peace and blessings,
Donn

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#17 Post by Rossf » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:02 pm

Hey MicroBob our setup is identical except the vickers objectives-I’ve also got a black MB-30 frame (was only $70 so I had to grab it-want to get the mirror for it for portability-black frame needs serious re-greasing but doesn’t have the upper stop like the white one. Got the trinoc head also but most goes to the photoport so observation via head is pretty dark-what are the vickers objectives like? What do you do for lighting? I’ve tried torches pushed into the back entrance but I really don’t know how to complete this-LED,any recommendations? I’m thinking of just one brightness and use ND filters unless it’s a bad idea.The elusive full English manual is a real bug bear of this beautiful made scope-my Olympus plastic gears will eventually go so I have plans of this being my forever scope. It’s hard to get used to the stage not moving but the tube itself.the stage removal method is really quick.
Regards ross

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#18 Post by apochronaut » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:29 am

I have the English language manual but at present no in house method of scanning. I think Bob and there is someone else that wants this as well.
I will step up efforts to get it scanned at the library and will post that it has been done. It is over 100 pages, if I recall.

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Re: PZO DIC with MPI-3 and KPI-2

#19 Post by MicroBob » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:24 pm

@Donn:
since you have an MPI-2 you can compare it to the images and measurements I have posed here. My MPI-3 seems to be an uncommon version. The objectives in the PZO kit were not meant for visual contrast optimisation but for measuring uses. You can try any objective you have and see if you can find a setting where the DIC effect shows and there is no or little gradient in the image. Plan objectives are more likely to work.

@Ross:
I have turned a cylindrical heat sink on the lathe that protrudes from the back of the microscope. On the front an LED on a star board is mounted. Power supply is a small 30€ lab power supply. LED is probably an XML-2 or XHP-50, can't remember.

I haven't done any closer testing with this setup. I loaned the kit to a group member shortly after I got it and haven't found the time after I got it back. I'm not yet satisfied with the fine focus of my MB-3 and have to disassemble it a second time and use lighter lubricants. The Vickers objectives appear to be fine but I haven't checked them in direct comparison.

Bob

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