DIC prism purchasing

[microscopeboi]

hi, ive been looking into DIC and buying prisms on ebay, how do i tell if a slider will work with a prism or if either will work with my objectives? and is planapo a requirement? Are brands able to cross? like if i got an olympus prism with a zeiss slider? Pretty much, what do i need to look for when purchasing sliders and prisms to know they will be compatible. sorry for the tons of questions, Thanks

[admin]

Hello,
This is not an easy thing. According to Olympus (I talked to them), they only provide DIC with plan Apos. The non-plan are not certified for DIC, so maybe they would still work? You need a DIC condenser and a Wollasone Prism and depending on the system you might need a separate prism for each objective. There are also different generations of DIC out there. So I suggest that you specifically research for you microscope what the company recommends and then get that. You need the technical data sheet or something like this to find out what parts fit and what don't.

>Are brands able to cross?
No. quite sure about that. Even within the brand they changed the system. Olympus told me that one prism fits all objectives, and Zeiss said that you need several prisms, So the systems are evidently different.

greets, Oliver

[PeteM]

As Oliver says, the chances aren't especially good of compatibility between brands. It's a bit like finding a pair of eyeglasses by the roadside and expecting them to match your prescription.

What model Olympus do you have and which DIC components? Vanox? BHw/BHS? BX/CX? Also which objectives?

If you don't already have anything, your best bet is to buy a complete and compatible system, recognizing that just the DIC prisms and holders will likely be in the $2000 and up range. You can get some interesting DIC effects for less, though.

Reflected DIC systems are also much more affordable.

[microscopeboi]

alright, thanks for the information guys, and i have never heard of reflected light DIC, ill research that, i just have a chinese unbranded scope with filter holders and koheler illumination fitted with nikon planapos and apos for 20x, 40x and 100x. The 20x is specified to work with DIC n2 prisms i think.

[PeteM]

To add, Olympus BH2/BHS series DIC systems are spec'd for SPlans. Most Plan Apos work as well. The regular Achro and DPlan not so well. I was able to get DIC on a BHS using an adapted Nikon finite system, but the upper prism location was a bit off and it wasn't perfect. Charles Kreb's work shows what outstanding results are possible with a proper finite Olympus system.

Olympus BX /CX series DIC sytems work very well with UplanFl (Fluorite) and Apos. UIS and UIS2 brochures note which objectives work. Olympus makes three types of upper DIC prism sliders with different amounts of (variable) shear. Olympus has a dazzling array of infinite objectives and matching condenser prisms available. Tom Jones is likely our resident expert on these systems.

Nikon finite systems with CF and CFN optics work with Plan Achros, even if not marked DIC -- or at least all I've tried. Ditto the few Nikon finite Fluors and Apos I've tried. Other than the 60x Nikon Apo oil, I'm not sure the extra money is justified for DIC. More so for brightfield.

There were at least two iterations of prisms and condensers as member Abednego helped me sort out months ago. The earliest has the slider going from left to right and a 1.35na condenser. The second (type A) has the sliding prism at 45 degrees and a 1.40 na condenser. These systems are limited in covering only 20x, 40x and 60 or 100x - but very satisfying (at least to me) at those magnifications.

Nikon infinite systems (60mm parfocal) with Fluor and Apo objectives (CFI series) will be marked for the DIC condenser prism they use. I'm still trying to put a complete Nikon infinity DIC system together -- and had I known how hard it would be to find all the components for only the arm or leg of "an arm AND a leg" might not have headed down that path. If anyone has spare components, be interested to know.

Leica has a compatibility chart for their Delta and HC infinity optics - most now 25mm thread size. Generally, DIC compatible objectives will be marked with an * for the earliest ones and the letters A,B,C,D, etc. Leica DM series is one of the few cases I've successfully mated a Leica upper prism with Olympus prisms below and it only worked for 20x and 40x.

Generally speaking Hi Plan and C Plan objectives aren't recommended for DIC, but N Plan and Fluotar objectives (marked A,B,C,D etc) are. That said, I've gotten decent DIC with 20x and 40x C Plans.

Surprisingly, I got good DIC from older Leitz objectives with the dedicated prisms (meant for reflected use) and a PZO condenser below for transmitted DIC. Bit fussy to get it aligned, though - since each objective prism has to be aligned one at a time.

American Optical / Reichert had a simple system with a small slider up top and fixed prisms in a condenser below. The original was from the A.O. Series 20 era. Then a Reichert Austria version, very similar per an experienced member here. And also a Reichert 420 MicoStar version similar (it appears) to the AO one in design, but with an interchangeable turret that actually has room to support modern (wider) objectives and likely also a larger field of view. All these systems are pretty rare to find, but (from the one I've seen) surprisingly good for their age and usually cheaper (should you find one) than more modern versions. Apochronaut is likely the world expert here.

PZO has a couple systems - and a search here might provide details. A plus is that the condenser is as likely to have something that works when mismatched as any. A minus is that the PZO objectives are a bit dated in terms of coatings (contrast) and perhaps field size.

Olympus reflected light DIC prisms for MPlan, Neo Splan, etc. are the most widely available and relatively affordable, and some pretty cool DIC to pseudo-DIC effects can be had using them when cobbling together a transmitted system. Each prism can slide a bit inside it's mount - a plus. However, finding matches is a needle-in-a-haystack search.

Nikon also had reflected DIC systems from the Optiphot 66,100, 160 etc. days - a fair number sold decades ago for semiconductor wafer inspection. I haven't yet played as much with these.

I don't know much about Zeiss and perhaps others could fill in on the three or four generations of systems. I do know that several members here post DIC images, taken with their Zeiss sytems, and they often look amazing. Seems they often feature Zeiss' marvelous 63x objective? Downside of Zeiss is the tendency toward delamination.

Far as I know, most of today's more affordable Chinese scopes (AmScope, Omax, and a hundred other brands) either do not have a DIC option or don't much sell it in the US.

[microscopeboi]

wow, thank you for the wealth of information, do you know if DIC components functionality depends on their brands matching the scopes brand? if i had an infinity corrected DIC system using olympus components could i get the same results if i moved the components to a nikon scope?

[PeteM]

Not likely, unless you wanted to machine various adapters to get, say, an Olympus nosepiece on to a Nikon stand. Or a PZO condenser machined to fit an Olympus stand. There are also all sorts of optical traps, as well.

My recommendations might be, in order of increasing $$$

- If you're handy adapting things, maybe play around with some Olympus reflected prisms top and bottom for a sort of pseudo/oblique DIC. Sometimes cool effects. Cost will be in the hundreds and lots of time, some frustration, some "ahas." Not entirely a bad way to spur learning . . .

- Most affordable true DIC (and we're typically talking thousands) is a complete finite or infinite system, with both patience and cash in hand. A complete system is rarely seen on Ebay for less than $4-5000. And while assembling something from parts can be an engaging project it may take years, and near the same $4000-5000 or its equivalent in time, to assemble a complete system. Still, with luck, many manage to do better. "Luck" is perhaps best defined as spending a couple hundred hours looking for a bargain. I'd guess that if one person decided to spend those couple hundred hours working overtime, they'd sooner have the $4000+ scope?

- A still not-explored idea of using more affordable reflected systems, but preparing biological specimens so thin and with a reflective background that (maybe) cool images result. Complete reflected DIC scopes can be had under $1000.

- Hoffman modulation contrast, dark field, and oblique are other worthy options.

[Scarodactyl]

For epi DIC I found a mitutoyo 10x m plan apo worked on an Olynpus bh2-uma setup (same thread similar na). But the objective is way too long for the stand so experimentation was limited.