Hi, from Alberta Canada

[mes0]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking these forums for a couple of weeks while I've been researching microscopes worth buying and have learned a great deal.
I'm a hobbyist looking for something in the 1500-2000$ range. I'm interested in phase contrast and darkfield imaging as well as using my D-SLR camera to video and photograph the microverse.

I've checked out many chinese scopes via the internet (amscope, omax, unbranded on alibaba) but the sellers will never send me any photographs of their phase contrast or darkfield capabilities.
I've found a few decent videos on youtube of the phase contrast capabilities at lower magnifications and darkfield capabilities with a dry condenser also at lower magnifications. They looked ok but I know ok at low mag can goto awful at higher mag.

I've recently started checking out the big microscope names..nikon and zeiss. Zeiss doesn't seem to have anything under 2500 for a basic microscope, and nikon offers the e100 and e200 scopes for 2000 or less, but they have the CFI45 and CFI60 optical systems that don't seem to be used outside of nikon. (please correct me if this is wrong). I can find an e100 for ~500, but the nikon rep quoted me 2000$ to get a full (plan 4x-40x-100x) phase contrast kit for this so I feel I'd probably be way better off getting something else that is more upgrade-able.

Anyways just wanted to say hi to everyone because I've been enjoying reading all the old threads and appreciate having this free resource to help me sort things out.
I'm a newbie, so any help or cautions are always appreciated.

Thanks.

[Oliver]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Depending on your experience, you might also consider getting a relatively low cost (but decent) no-name microscope first, to keep the initial investment low. You can always spend more later, when you have more experience. Phase contrast can become expensive quite quickly... And a good phase contrast scope (Zeiss...) can easily swallow the cost of a no-name scope. Maybe over time specific interests start to develop, and you might then be able to make a decision which suits your needs best, and which phase contrast objectives to buy. For researchers the choice of a microscope is sometimes easier, because the device is often used to fulfill quite specific research interests. For hobbyists there is more flexibility. If you have the cash then DIC is really nice, and this already rules out many other options and companies. Also do not forget that subjective preference might also be pretty important. You just have to like using the device.

The big name companies (Olympus, Leica, Zeiss, Nikon) use infinity corrected objectives which are all company-specific (and expensive). They are neither optically nor physically compatible. The low-cost scopes use the transitional 160mm DIN standard and the physical interchangeability is given. Here the image quality depends very much on the quality of the individual objectives.

Greets, Oliver.

[gekko]

Wlecome mes0!
My 2-cents' worth (others may have different opinions that may be better than mine):
I think with your budget, you should have no difficulty obtaining a first class instrument (assuming you are willing to wait until the right one is offered for sale). I would avoid both the new Chinese ones (not because they are bad) and the new Nikons that you mentioned (100 and 200) because they are student grade microscopes as far as I know. Two points regarding interchangeability of optics: (1) all infinity tube length instrument do not allow the use of objectives of other brands, or if other objectives fit, they won't provide good results (in general), and (2) With finite tube length (TL) microscopes, you can easily use finite TL objectives of other brands, but for best (or sometimes good) performance you will have to also use matching eyepieces (and projection or photo lenses), a conderation more critical for objective powers greater than 10.
If I were buying, I would look into used (but in excellent condition) microscopes from Zeiss, Olympus, or Nikon. Leitz is another possibility, and make sure that upgrades that you might be interested in (e.g., phase contrast, DIC, fully corrected condenser, etc.) can be obtained for the model you consider.
Buying from ebay: Especially when buying used Zeiss optics, make sure that they are not delaminated. Beware of items described as having been strored for a long time (danger of fungus infected optics) or ones that "need cleaning".
I know of a couple of sellers on ebay that I would by from with my eyes closed: they both know microscopes, are straightforward, honest, and their prices are fair, so you know what you are getting for your money, and they stand behind what they sell. Disclaimer: I have absolutely no connection with either, I don't know them personally, although I have bought some objectives and other microscope-related stuff from one of them. Please PM me if you would like me to give you my recommendations. Since you are from Canada, I also would like to warn you to avoid one seller.
If you can buy from a microscope dealer where you can inspect and try out the microscope, that would be ideal. Also check your local university as sometimes they sell old (but perfectly good) equipment in order to get new stuff.

The forum software just informed me that Oliver has replied to your question while I was writing this, and I would recommend that you give his advice priority over mine where the advice differs.

[Added later] Another thing to look out for are focus gears (especially fine focus) that are split. Some microscopes made in the 80's and maybe later) use plastic gears that break rendering the fine focus useless. Nikon Labophots and Optiphots are among the ones that seem to be prone to this, but I don't think the problem is confined to Nikon.

[Added still later] After reading the introduction that Cyclops posted, I was reminded that an excellent new microscope would be Meiji (not sure what their pricing is, though). But this would be infinity-corrected, so the limitations on interchangeability of optical parts are there.

[JimT]

Welcome. Both Oliver and Gekko offer some good suggestions. I went with a Chinese scope because I was just starting out. I have made some upgrades and I have not been disappointed. I subscribe to the axiom that you can get 80% of the quality of the "Big Three" for 20% of the cost. Also, being a newbie I didn't want to take a chance on EBay but looks like Gekko can steer you to a couple of trusted sellers.

Here is a site that compares two of the most popular; http://microscopegenius.com/battle-of-t ... -cs-m82es/

What ever you decide, welcome again to the micro universe.

[apochronaut]

Welcome to the forum and I hope you will find it a valuable and enjoyable resource . From the description of your searches, I assume you are mostly interested in biological subjects. I'm a user friendly, D.I.Y. kind of microscopist, so bear that in mind, while reading.
Your reasoning , regarding the higher resolution performance capabilities of modesly priced Chinese scopes, is pretty accurate. What I see is, the optics are good because they have purchased no longer needed optical designs from established makers, or they reverse engineered them but the mechanical precision is poor, so they can lack such important necessities such as accurate parcentering of objectives and stage levelling etc. A lot of the mechanics are light duty , of plastic and the like, so durability is questionable as is service and parts back up over time. Equipment is 3D....durability, disposability or diy-ability. Take a guess, which of those dimensions, Chinese scopes crowd into.
You also, would only have the option for basic optics; achromats at the lower end and planachromats for a lot more money. Condensers are limited to abbe or worse. Options for fluorite or apochromats aren't really there unless you go towards Motic and spend a bundle and then you are in a price category that raises the big question of, why would I spend so much money on a Chinese microscope? Adding on phase or high resolution oil dark field puts the price way up but you are limited to the most basic quality of both of those.
In used microscopes, if you aren't picky about brand; a better quality stand than any Chinese stand made,with better condenser,objective, illumination and contrast enhancement options can be had at anywhere 1/5 to 1/2 the price of an average grade Chinese scope. In any given time period of say 1 month, you can find a planachromat, 100 watt trinocular microscope, with dark field , and a better than abbe brightfield condenser for less than 600.00, a standard wattage,planachromat trinocular microscope for less than 250.00, with each having a future upgrade capacity to phase contrast, some to D.I.C. and some to fluorescence.
The biggest hangup people have about used scopes is that they don't have a warranty and they often need cleaning/adjustment. Most of this does not need a 100.00/hr. professional to accomplish. It is D.I.Y. stuff with the added benefit that the user will really learn about their instrument.
I'm convinced that most Chinese microscopes are sold with half assed adjustments anyway.
With regards to used brands, you have to decide whether you are interested in performance or reputation. MIcroscopes ,unfortunately are as prone to the absurdities of brand recognition as fast food hamburgers and toilet paper are, so you , the second hand buyer can reap the benefits of buying a fantastic microscope , with infinity correction and all the possibilities of forward or backward retrofitting for much, much less than you would think.
Brands in order of value per dollar spent . 1) American Optical 1) Reichert 2) Bausch & Lomb 3) Vickers/Baker 4) Nikon 5) Leitz 6) Zeiss 7) Olympus

[mes0]

Thanks for the replies Oliver,Gekko, Jim & Apochronaut,

Oliver: I have indeed been looking at just getting a cheapie so that I can explain to my 3 year old what I'm talking about when I'm telling her about cells in our bodies . Basically what I'm after right now is just phase contrast and darkfield for examining bacteria and live blood. I'm a geologist, so I have many hours logged on polarizing scopes examining thin sections and also on stereo microscopes looking at rock and mineral samples. The DIC stuff I've seen looks amazing, but there are very few units that I have seen for under 2000, but I'll keep an eye out.

Gekko: Definitely PM me the names of the sellers you have experience with and the one to avoid. I have a long history on ebay and find that the ebay score sellers have doesn't necessarily reflect their honesty or professionalism. I've been checking government surplus, university surplus, local classifieds etc looking for the best deals...the tough part is knowing a deal when I see one. I've seen a Zeiss phase contrast/darkfield setup for 1300, but the lenses (ph 10,40,100) weren't planar so I wasn't sure it was worth it..the 100x was being sold for ~130 on ebay so I figured likely not.

JimT: Thanks. I've definitely considered just buying a new amscope or omax but once I added on the trinoc head, case, plan lenses, phase contrast, darkfield it ends up being close to 2000. One seller has a 30day money back guarantee on these, but I'm quite leary since they won't send me any pictures, and no one has shown any 100x darkfield photos or video.

apochronaut: I'm definitely a DIY fixer upper kind of guy. Thanks for providing the list. I hadn't checked out any Reichert or Vickers stuff yet but have been looking at American Optical scopes. There's plenty of inexpensive AO scopes on ebay, but what I'm not seeing are infinity corrected lenses with any of them...only plan lenses if lucky...I was under the impression that if you got infinity lenses you were stuck with a certain brand?

Thanks again for all the responses, I greatly appreciate the info!

[apochronaut]

All AO microscopes with planachro optics are infinity corrected. Somewhere on the barrel, there is an infinity symbol. They didn't really mark plan on the barrels of the 160mm objectives , even though they were fiddling with the concept optically. The nice thing about AO is that they also bought Reichert in 1962, so when Reichert went infinity in the mid 70's , all of the Reichert optics from then on are compatible with AO. AO began infinity in the early 60's.
There is a difference in the length of the objectives the Reichert research models made in Austria used( D.I.N.) and the models 10,20,100,120 branded either AO or Reichert used ( 34mm). The AO 410 and 420 had D.I.N. objectives. The 34mm objectives can be made parfocal with the D.I.N. objectives with adapters. All condensers, from as far back as the 40's on AO series 15 and 35 , right on up can be made to work on the latest model of AO microscope, sometimes with a little fiddling needed. I currently , sometimes use a dark field condenser from a series 4 made in 1955 on my Diastar 420 made around 2000 and sometimes an N.A. 1.4 achromat made around 1948 for a series 15, on the same scope. They both fit and work flawlessly. Optical heads from series 10, through to series 400 are cross compatible but the earlier heads have a tighter optical path. They can beam a 20mm field of view but not much more, whereas the newer heads can beam over 24mm.
Here is the ringer. All research objectives made for Reichert and subsequent Leica infinity systems are based on AO corrections, so you can pop a Leica planapo objective onto even an AO series 10 and although it is a little long and the stage will have to be set a little lower on the sliding dovetail, it will work.That's about a 50 year gap, in the date of mfg.

AO designed the most versatile , brilliant group of microscopes with an amazing level of cross compatibility , within their own models but also somewhat throughout their subsidiary , Reichert's line as well. The amalgamated firm Leica, was the heir to their brilliant forsight . The best thing about this is that no body believes it, so they are the absolute steal of used microscopes and built to last.

[apochronaut]

I was under the impression that if you got infinity lenses you were stuck with a certain brand?[/quote]

This is true. The infinity systems of Nikon,Olympus,Zeiss and Leica ,although all infinity corrected, have degrees of incompatability due to some of them completing certain corrections in a telon lens , which is a fixed distance from the objective. Even at Zeiss, the infinity corrected Chinese made Zeiss is not compatible with the German Zeiss. What a sleazy way of selling you a better microscope! Each of them have a distinct tube length as well, at which point the additional corrections are effected.
Leitz , had very little involvement with infinity but after the amalgamation of 8 companies into Leica, infinity became very important. Some of the early Leica infinity objectives were AO or Reichert objectives, rebranded Leica. These were compatible with newer Leica infinity designs, so from there it follows that there is a broad cross compatibility in what is essentially the American Optical microscope family. Newer , high end Leica objectives, with larger threads made for sted or confocal microscopy may be different. I seem to recall that I read something some time ago that their really expensive research oriented objectives were not compatible with the conventional planachros or planfluorites but I could be wrong about that.
I do not know anyone who has actually trialled various objectives on one system and done a comparison. I have trialled a Chinese infinity corrected objective , which I think was configured for Olympus on AO and it works fine with complete correction.

[mes0]

So if the AO lenses that are infinity corrected @ 160mm are not marked, how can you tell the difference between a regular 160mm length lense and an infinity one?

[Charles]

All of the AO/Reichert circa objectives I have or have seen have the infinity symbol on them. If the symbol is not there, then they are 160mm TL. I also feel AO/Reichert Plan objectives, whether BF or Phase are in the same league as the high end German optics of that time but it's the German Neofluars and Apos which have a distinct advantage since AO/Reichert stuck mostly to Plan and Advanced Plan objectives. Yes, you do need to be aware that Zeiss Apos are subject to delamination and should check each before purchase but IMO they made/make the best optics.

For microscope purchase-wise, I wouldn't jump in there with your $1500-2000 purchase right away. Instead, invest is a inexpensive older stand like the AO 110-120. The AO stands are easy to upgrade from BF, Phase, Pol and Fluoro. A little harder to find DIC components but they are out there. Even a basic Zeiss stand can be had for under $200 and can be readily upgraded the same as the AO with easier to find DIC components. I'm not as acquainted with the Japanese scopes like Olympus and Nikons but they were basically engineered using German engineering given to them during WWII. That is why most of theirs look like clones of German and Swiss microscopes.

[apochronaut]

They didn't really have infinity lenses until they started marking them but in the series 4, which directly predated the infinity series, you can use the later infinity lenses and they are actually better than the previous series. They were probably, thinking in that direction some way.
All of the infinity objectives are marked with a cat. #, the previous objectives, although they had catalogue #'s were only marked with a serial #.

For the series 10( 10 watt tungsten 110v,18 watt tungsten 6v. remote trafo. or 20 watt halogen in base trafo.) and the series 20( 100 watt halogen ,remote trafo). double grey enamel, 3,4 or 5 position nosepiece.

4X # 1075 achro, # 1017 planachro 10X # 1076 achro, # 1019 planachro ; 20X # 1077 achro , # 1022 planachro ; 40X # 1023 planachro ; 45X #1078 achro , #1116 achro , #3007 achro
50X # 1026 achro, # 1029 achro/iris , # 1016 planachro/iris ; 100X # 1079 achro , #1027 achro/iris , # 1014 planachro/iris , # 1024 planachro.

The series 10/20 was superceded by the 100 series which was basically, the 100, 30watt halogen with in base trafo. and the 120 100 watt with external trafo and a 4 or 5 position nosepiece. The bodies are usually bicolour, cream and dark grey. There were also cream and black. The earlier ones were branded AO, the later ones were branded Reichert . All of the objectives listed above will work on them but some new ones were added and some of the others were superceded by new designs with slightly better performance.
2.5X # 1028 planachro ; 4X # 1126 planachro ; 10X # 1021 planachro, # 1109 achro , # 1127 planachro ; 20X # 1215 L.W.D. achro , 40X # 1128 planachro , # 1309 planachro , # 1891 achro ; 63X # 1303 semi-planachro ; 100X # 1029 planachro , # 1311 planachro.

A number of the objectives can be found with several barrel designs, #1023 and 1024 in particular have 3 distinct shapes and can be either U.S.A. or Austrian made. Later mfg. barrels had painted on specifications, which sometimes wear off.

The series 100 was superceded by the series 400 comprising basically the 410 with 24 watt halogen and an in base trafo. There were 4 or 5 position nosepieces. The 420 was 100 watt in base trafo. with normally a 6 position nosepiece. They were white and blue or white and black with either Reichert, Cambridge or Leica on them.

The objective series were lengthened ( 45mm D.I.N.) improvements of some of those listed above and a few from the Reichert ,Austria models, presumably if they were better than the AO objectives or fitted the breadth of the intended system. The 10X neoplan for instance is an Austrian design. All had painted barrels but some of the earlier Austrian made versions, which were identical to the later U.S.A. made ones were engraved and in different barrels( # 1754 for instance). Neoplan , means semi-plan , so the neoplan objectives were the lesser series but they are all very good, nontheless.

2.5X, # 1730 planachro ; 4X # 1731 planachro ; 10X, # 1727, planfluorite, # 1732 planachro , # 1754 neoplan
20X, # 1733 planachro ; 40X # 1728 planfluorite , # 1734 planachro, # 1757 neoplan ; 50X # 1758 neoplan
100X, # 1729 planfluorite , # 1736 planachro and # 1737 planachro/iris.

Additionally there were a number of student objectives.particularly in low mags. made for the series 50,60,150,160 which were also infinity corrected. Although these are good basic brightfield microscopes and have stood the test of time, I don't recommend them , from the standpoint of their potential to upgrade. Otherwise they are great. They also have fairly weak illuminators, mainly valuable for brightfield, although they can be easily retrofitted to led.
The Leica 2000 was kind of an upgraded series 150 and also had AO D.I.N. objectives , although most I have seen are only achromats. I think they had plan too.

I have listed only those objectives corrected for coverslip use. There were additionally, many beginning with a 2 or 3 as well as some others that were designed for epi or no cover use as well as some for inverted use or research that I haven't included. Any objective with an S added to the basic # is a strain free version ,made for polarization work and will do well for bright or dark field too. AO made some epi or vertical illumination microscopes that look superficially like the diascopic version, so that needs to be watched for, however those epi microscopes are no slouches.

Additionally there were 13 standard phase objectives and 2 for L.W.D. All are marked infinity.
Hope this helps.

[Charles]

I think I would be overwhelm with all those AO/Reichert objectives Phil when basically you have Achros, Plan Achros and Phase Plan Achros, and then you have all the 'special' objectives.

[mes0]

I'm definitely overwhelmed by all of this..

I found this page http://user.xmission.com/~psneeley/Pers ... ctives.htm that breaks down the objectives situation a bit.

The only way to get infinity lenses according to this page, is to get a Series 10, 20, 110, 120, etc. OR AO-Reichert, Reichert, Leica, Series 310, 410, etc.

I'm not sure whether getting the older ones with 34mm parfocal length or the newer ones with 45mm parfocal length is the way to go...

Charles: you mentioned getting a 110 was the way to go, can you explain why I would go with 34mm parfocal length type over the newer 45mm parfocal lengths?

[billbillt]

Hi apochronaut,

You have made this statement: "What I see is, the optics are good because they have purchased no longer needed optical designs from established makers", before here on the forum about Chinese microscope makers.. Could you possibly provide links for me to learn more about this?... I can't seem to find anything to read about this no matter how much time I spend on a search... I think it is a very interesting subject to learn how Chinese stands where developed!...

The Best,
BillT

[Charles]

I also indicated the Zeiss would be another option. I guess the parfocal distance would be your choice. If you want to go the 45mm route, then go for the Zeiss. 34mm route and go with the AO/Reichert. It's just that there are more inexpensive options/accessories for the AO and Zeiss than there are for others. The beauty of buying older scopes is that they don't depreciate in price. When you want to upgrade or go for something else, you can usually sell your used scope for about the price you paid for it and in some cases you can get more if you bought on the cheap initially.

Steve Neeley's site is a wonderful resource especially for AO scopes.

[apochronaut]

I'm definitely overwhelmed by all of this..

I found this page http://user.xmission.com/~psneeley/Pers ... ctives.htm that breaks down the objectives situation a bit.

The only way to get infinity lenses according to this page, is to get a Series 10, 20, 110, 120, etc. OR AO-Reichert, Reichert, Leica, Series 310, 410, etc.

I'm not sure whether getting the older ones with 34mm parfocal length or the newer ones with 45mm parfocal length is the way to go...

Charles: you mentioned getting a 110 was the way to go, can you explain why I would go with 34mm parfocal length type over the newer 45mm parfocal lengths?

The 310 is a Chinese microscope, briefly marketed as a cheapo by Reichert. It's not infinity and there are few around, so aftermarket parts or any upgrades are pretty non-existent. Stay clear of them. Zeiss are overrated. There is kind of an altar built somewhere, where adherents worship. To get into an excellent Zeiss microscope that can keep up with a 400 series , you have to get into their infinity corrected era and then the price goes haywire.
MIcroscope objectives really haven't changed in principle for many many years but that said, once they started using computer ray tracing to fine tune, what were known and accurate mathematical designs, the contrast , which had always , irregardless of who's objectives you are talking about been plagued by internal reflection and ray scattering improved dramatically. Planarity, also was improved as was lateral chromatic aberration. So, to answer your question as to whether the 34mm parfocal or the 45mm parfocal objectives are superior; the 34mm ,at their maturity , which means the# 1028. # 1126, # 1021, # 1022, # 1309 and # 1311 are all very good, as good as anybody was making 30 years ago, except Bausch & Lomb. For a brief period in the 80's B&L planachros were just about as good as apochromats. In fact, they cancelled their production of all but one upgraded fluorite objective because the new planachromats were better and cheaper. Sadly, they are only usable on a B&L Balplan but a 100 watt B&L Balplan research microscope in prime condition is a superb microscope. I saw one go on ebay about 6 months ago for 200.00.
When the 400 series was developed, there were a number of reasons to abandon the short objectives , in favour of D.I.N. objectives. Technology had improved to the point where even the last 34mm objectives had peaked but could be improved, and certainly, catching up to B&L's lead was necessary.... and then there was the size factor. Every other maker was opting for large barrel objectives, even if the optics inside were the same. It really just made the microscope look more serious and the dominance of Bausch & Lomb's superior ( large bodied) objectives meant that another redesign was in order. They tweaked some of the older 34mm AO designs and as well a few Reichert Austria designs and came up with a very superior group of objectives. The most noticeable improvement is in the contrast . Traditionally, even though the " fill the back lens" rule, holds true theoretically, the effects of flare forces the user to limit the aperture, sometimes much below that ,in order to have sufficient contrast.The 400 series objectives can work at a much wider aperture because ray scattering is more controlled, so essentially there has been a pretty linear improvement in the objective performance from the 10 through the 420. The thing is, though, even the 10 is a great microscope at around 50 years old.
One of the things you need to consider is , whether you want to do dark field or opt also for a future D.I.C. or fluorescence conversion. If any of those are in the works, you need 100 watts, so either a 20, 120 or 420 is needed. A 20 can be had for very little and dollar for dollar , may be one of the best buys around. A 120 is more similar to a 420 than the 20 is to either but the optics between the 20 and 120 are easily interchangeable, whereas the 420 uses D.I.N. or 34mm objectives with extensions. Camera focus, field coverage and sensor coverage follows the same parameters for all of them and the physical coupling of the camera is very similar for the 20 and 120 , with slight differences for the 420. Nice inexpensive adapters are available for all.
All of the above ,holds for the 10,100 and 400 as well.

[billbillt]

Hi apochronaut,

You have made this statement: "What I see is, the optics are good because they have purchased no longer needed optical designs from established makers", before here on the forum about Chinese microscope makers.. Could you possibly provide links for me to learn more about this?... I can't seem to find anything to read about this no matter how much time I spend on a search... I think it is a very interesting subject to learn how Chinese stands where developed!...

The Best,
BillT

[apochronaut]

There isn't much to link to. I have some examples of objectives, that I broke down in the past and see copies of designs. There are also stands, that clearly are copies of the no longer needed designs of the majors. There is an entire objective line out there, that is clearly based on an American Optical. model, complete with a .66 N.A. 40X. This isn't limited to China. Zeiss sold pre war molds to India, which formed the basis of their microscope industry in the 1970's and 80's. Bulgaria, had Zeiss knockoffs.
I have a bunch of old Catalogues from China from the 80's. A bunch of B&L designs went there for a cheap line, then proliferated everywhere, like a virus when the B&L scientific division ceased to exist.

[Dale]

I'm definitely overwhelmed by all of this..

I found this page http://user.xmission.com/~psneeley/Pers ... ctives.htm that breaks down the objectives situation a bit.

The only way to get infinity lenses according to this page, is to get a Series 10, 20, 110, 120, etc. OR AO-Reichert, Reichert, Leica, Series 310, 410, etc.

I'm not sure whether getting the older ones with 34mm parfocal length or the newer ones with 45mm parfocal length is the way to go...

Charles: you mentioned getting a 110 was the way to go, can you explain why I would go with 34mm parfocal length type over the newer 45mm parfocal lengths?

Mr Neely will answer pm's.