New to Compound/Biological Microscopes

[mvjasper]

Greetings,

First a little about me. I'm a life long science enthusiast who, over the years, has found ways to merge hobbies to spark new interests. Photography was the first hobby/passion I could afford as a kid with an inherited camera, and I still have the bug. What's way up in the sky always interested me from when I was a kid through to adulthood, but lifestyle (moving a lot) had me delay my first telescope purchase until my 40s. Buying and selling cameras and lenses over the years, something I stopped doing once I got great equipment, taught me to stick with high-quality optics so the experience was as good as possible and a cost savings in the long run. I employed this logic in my amateur astronomy pursuits and began with (and still use) a couple Takahashis and an Astro Physics. Eventually I stuck a camera on the back of a telescope and fell in love with the workflow and the images I could create.

I wavered from all I learned when I started looking at small things by purchasing a Meiji Techno EMZ-8TR about four years ago. It's a very nice stereo microscope, and I've made a few simple videos with my children and enjoy how much they took to the sciences, looking up at the big and down at the small. But after looking through a couple of the 'big four' stereo microscopes I realized that even (or perhaps especially) when looking at something so close, optics matter.

Now my oldest has developed a passion for life sciences, and her advanced biology studies have made it the right time to make the purchase I have researched for a few years. I was all over in terms of brands and models, but have settled on a Zeiss Axioscope A1. I haven't bought it yet, as it has a two month lead time and I was waiting for the right time to place the order, but am ready now and have a few questions. Before I get into the questions I'd like to say that I've learned a lot reading these forums and doing other research online. If I were in a different place in life I'd probably be all over buying used and building my kit from scratch, but there are too many more important things taking up time in my life and I want something that will work out of the (new) box without a need to chase someone down if something isn't right, and I want as good an experience as I can have without a lot of trial and error.

The quote I received includes phase contrast and DIC capabilities, so now I just need to pick the objectives, which is where I'd like your advice. I realize you'll ask what I want to look at, and the answer is anything and everything that sparks my interest, but almost certainly starting with pond life. I'd like to hear of anyone's experience with Zeiss EC Plan-Neofluar side-by-side with their Plan Apochromat objectives, and how much better the later is. I worked with two different salesmen over a period of time, and one told me that if I bought phase contrast objectives, especially one of the two classes mentioned above, that the DIC view/imaging would still be exceptional. It would be great to hear from anyone who has used a phase contrast Plan Apochromat for DIC.

I look forward to my continuing education from this forum and my firsthand experiences. Thank you in advance for any information or experiences you can pass along,

MV

[75RR]

Hi mvjasper, welcome.
Can't help you with an opinion on Infinity Zeiss EC Plan-Neofluar vs Plan Apochromat infinity objectives, particularly if/when combining Phase objectives and DIC. Not sure if any forum member can.
However it seems to me that if one is purchasing a new Zeiss Axioscope A1 (given the serious outlay such a microscope entails) that the sales people would give you the opportunity to compare these objectives live on an actual Zeiss Axioscope A1 demonstration model.
Have you mentioned the possibility of taking one for a spin to them?

[Hobbyst46]

Although you appear to have made a decision, since your purchase will be quite expensive relative to average hobby use (I dare say), I would ask for a quotation also from Olympus. The reasons that I say so are
1. You are talking new equipment,
2. My experience when looking for new, high end research grade microscopes in the past was that Zeiss was more expensive than others, perhaps because of the name and reputation.

I also feel (cannot prove) that several experienced members of this forum use modern Olympus scopes and create excellent results. And they might answer your specific question about phase/DIC.

[mvjasper]

Hello 75. I have had the opportunity for hands on, but they did not have every objective and capability combination.

To 46's Olympus suggestion, a little story is in order. The first camera I purchased new was an Olympus OM4T and I loved it. I wish I still had it today (sold and bought a Nikon F3HP). I own or have owned optics from the big four: Zeiss loupe (for large format focusing and film inspection) and Classic through Otus photographic lenses; Leica binoculars; and lots of Nikon lenses and equipment. To speak specifically to the Olympus suggestion, when I bought the Meiji Techno four years ago, it was after months of trying to get a quote from two Olympus salespersons. It seemed any interest in working with me on a configuration and quote ended when I told them it was for home/personal use.

Several years ago, I used to go to the Washington D.C. museums almost every week with my family. One weekend, at the Museum of Natural History (I believe that's where it was) they had an exhibit in the front to the right that had about 20 Olympus stereo microscopes connected to monitors (or you could look through the eyepieces) and thousands if not tens of thousands of specimens. I could have stayed there for hours, but even then dragging my kids out was not easy. We already spent our weekend nights on top of a hill with our telescopes
and I thought, "this will be a wonderful complement for those overcast days." That's when the stereo microscope research/shopping began. That wasn't my first interest in microscopes, but it rekindled and old flame and to see my kid's enthusiasm was intoxicating. Unfortunately I couldn't get a quote and after about two months gave up and started looking at what was available, spent some time comparing models, and bought what I bought. I guess you can't force a company to take your money. Perhaps I should have looked at the other three of the big four. Now that I'm back on the market, the good folks at Zeiss seem willing to work with me. I have looked closely at what Nikon and Olympus have to offer, which I have no doubt equipment from either would make me very satisfied indeed.


MV

[mvjasper]

46,

I took your advice and gave Olympus another shot. Last weekend I submitted an online request for a sales contact. I received an automated response that said I would hear from someone within two business days. Wednesday evening i submitted another query for a sales contact, though I think I went about it a different way. In the second request, in addition to the details of what I was interested, I told them how difficult it was to contact anyone from sales in Olympus. Thursday afternoon I had a response from someone saying, "Olympus has a very strict policy on selling and distribution of microscopes." I was asked quite a few questions, not all of which were about why I want to buy their microscope. I provided an answer and received a subsequent response on Friday thanking me for the information and letting me know they will prepare a configuration along with a quote.

I now find myself less familiar with Olympus products than I am with their Zeiss equivalents. Perhaps a forum member or members using modern Olympus scopes can help shorten the learning curve. I'll start somewhat high-level. I'll focus my decision making efforts on the BX43 or BX53. Olympus' 24-page product information document on these two microscopes (and the BX46) seem to heavily tout their microscopes' operating comfort. When you get to the BX53 section it starts off mentioning advanced modularity. Beyond modularity, though I acknowledge its importance, what significant differences are there between the BX43 and BX53?

Thank you,

MV

[Hobbyst46]

46,

I took your advice and gave Olympus another shot. Last weekend I submitted an online request for a sales contact. I received an automated response that said I would hear from someone within two business days. Wednesday evening i submitted another query for a sales contact, though I think I went about it a different way. In the second request, in addition to the details of what I was interested, I told them how difficult it was to contact anyone from sales in Olympus. Thursday afternoon I had a response from someone saying, "Olympus has a very strict policy on selling and distribution of microscopes." I was asked quite a few questions, not all of which were about why I want to buy their microscope. I provided an answer and received a subsequent response on Friday thanking me for the information and letting me know they will prepare a configuration along with a quote.

I now find myself less familiar with Olympus products than I am with their Zeiss equivalents. Perhaps a forum member or members using modern Olympus scopes can help shorten the learning curve. I'll start somewhat high-level. I'll focus my decision making efforts on the BX43 or BX53. Olympus' 24-page product information document on these two microscopes (and the BX46) seem to heavily tout their microscopes' operating comfort. When you get to the BX53 section it starts off mentioning advanced modularity. Beyond modularity, though I acknowledge its importance, what significant differences are there between the BX43 and BX53?

Thank you,

MV

1. Your goal instruments appear to be high-end, very modern research microscopes (price of the order of magnitude 10K$ and up).
I have used such, from different mfg., not the specific models you focus on.
But detailed specifications of such systems are available on the mfg. web sites.
Example for Olympus 43, beyond ergonomics and ease of use information:
https://www.olympus-lifescience.com/en/ ... ifications
There you find also their recommended camera (DP-27 in this case).
And for the 53:
https://www.olympus-lifescience.com/en/ ... ifications

Please note that all these scopes take infinity corrected objectives, types UIS or UIS-2 types (sophisticated lens coatings - priced accordingly).
I will try to fish any significant advantage of one against the other from those specs - assuming that your aim is still hobby use!
Okay, one difference is the illuminator. The 43 can be used with either a 30W halogen lamp or a LED source. The 53 model specifies a 14W LED only. I see the halogen option as advantage and would prefer it over the LED in this case. Not because of the wattage.
A second difference is an option that IMHO is not required for hobby: motorized nosepiece and condenser. This option of the 53 model enables remote control (from PC, etc) of the objective choice and illumination. For automated procedures, these are important, but would be overkill for hobby use. So from
this aspect, the 43 model is better.

2. About the salespersons, I can only hypothesize that they are more used to deal with institutions, or at least with clinical/vet labs, than with individuals. So they probably expect formal purchase orders, formal info requests, that end up in bids etc, and they look to build up an expanding long term relationship. Such steps are inherently slow.

3. I would also suggest that you try consulting with Alan Wood, who provides excellent expert information on his web site ("alanwood") about Olympus microscopes.

Please note, that I am not recommending any microscope brand specifically, just thought that Olympus might be more affordable.

[75RR]

I believe forum member Johann has a BX53 with DIC which he is very happy with, then again, who wouldn't be. :)
At the end of the day it is all about enjoying the fascinating world of microscopy within whatever ones budget is.
Choosing a microscope is also an adventure, one that many of us enjoy vicariously. Do keep us informed.

[mvjasper]

46,

Thank you for the link. I read similar documents and found that if you look in the right place Olympus provides different specs for the BX53, including a 100W halogen.

https://www.olympus-lifescience.com/en/ ... ifications

I'm sure you're correct about who the salesman typically interacts with for similar purchases. The salesman and I have had a few back-and-forth emails to date and the configuration is starting to take shape, four quotes into it now. I hope to meet with them next week or as soon thereafter as possible. Unless I can get them to provide a detailed quote, rather than a list of items without prices followed by a lump sum price, this could be a lengthy process. The first quote came back without DIC. The next quotes had DIC but were comprised of some different products, which is fine, but three quotes had an identical total price. I have to say, working on a Zeiss quote was so much easier. Go to their website, register, view their products with prices and (with a little trial and error) build a configuration and see what it costs at list price. The Zeiss salesmen work with you to swap components easily enough and you know how that will impact the price. I'm not getting squirmy over a few dollars here and there, but it's nice to see the impact of a tilting head as opposed to a non-tilting head. Finding specs on components is a lot more difficult in the Olympus world too.

The big takeaway so far is that (quoting) the major advantage of a BX53 (over the BX43) would be the ability to be configured for 10+ head observation, something I don't need.

Another takeaway is that this quote is shaping up to be very similarly priced to the Zeiss quote, which if it turns out that way I believe I'll go with the Zeiss. I hate to waste anyone's time, but I'm the customer and if I'm going to spend a similar amount on this that I spent on my diavel dark, I will take the comparison of both makes and models very seriously and only bring one of these microscopes home.

75, you are correct, this shopping/researching options journey is certainly an adventure, and one during which I learn more every day. As I said, I am somewhat new to these types of instruments, but I believe my methodical approach will deliver a nice product in the end.

Thank you both for your comments and suggestions.


MV

[PeteM]

You'll find a 100 watt lamp (or its LED equivalent) useful in high power DIC.

[mvjasper]

Pete,

So much to learn, the basics can slip by quite easily. Thank you! This is exactly the info I seek out and want to consider now rather than later when I find myself in need of an upgrade. I may have my formulas off a bit, but I am familiar with light intensity measurements being inversely proportional to the square of the magnification (with a modifier or two in there to keep us on our toes).

My initial configuration will likely have objectives no higher than 40X, though I believe I will go with separate DIC and phase contrast objectives for 20X and 40X, unless I can see that (as I've been told by a salesman or two) high NA APO or semi-APO phase contrast objectives will produce excellent DIC views. I'm glad you pointed this out and will ensure I go with the a suitable light source.

MV