Greetings from Frankfurt

What is your microscopy history? What are your interests? What equipment do you use?
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jemarch
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Greetings from Frankfurt

#1 Post by jemarch » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:19 pm

About to get started with microscopes.

Waiting for the arrival of a Zeiss Junior KF I bought, in the meanwhile studying a bit of optics, illumination and the mechanical aspects of the scopes.

Just wanted to say hello to everybody. My plan is to have a lot of fun in this new hobby.
Salud!

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75RR
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#2 Post by 75RR » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:44 pm

Welcome jemarch, I am sure you will enjoy your journey into microscopy.

When you say Zeiss Junior KF is that the black 1950's microscope you are talking about? Can you supply a seller photo (until it arrives)
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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jemarch
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#3 Post by jemarch » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:00 pm

This is it:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Carl-Zeiss-juni ... 0082001864

I don't think the scope is from the 50s. The illumination system ("EL" light) doesn't look like the more primitive-looking detachable lamps I have seen in photos of other juniors. Still fortunately this one still comes with a mirror, which seems useful.

It is supposed to be unused/unpackaged.

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75RR
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#4 Post by 75RR » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:22 pm

You have bought a very nice microscope, but I think that it is more of a collectors piece.

I wonder if it were possible to contact the seller - for that money you could have bought a more modern and more capable/practicable Zeiss microscope.

There are some members here who are very knowledgeable about Zeiss microscopes. I hope they can chip in.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpdrvxmaifz5j ... d.pdf?dl=0

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Last edited by 75RR on Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#5 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:27 pm

Congratulations.
Appears to be very nice. Both coarse and fine focusing, and a condenser. Also, a modern on-off and dimmer, instead of the original outdated power supply.
If it was never used, I would carefully inspect all mechanics when received - first thing to do. Focusing - coarse and fine, stage movement, condenser up-and down movement and centrability (if they are meant to be), head rotation, objective turret rotation - they are all initially lubricated, and if the microscope is ~60-70 years old, who knows. Then inspect the optics for fungus or delamination.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#6 Post by jemarch » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:41 pm

75RR wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:22 pm
You have bought a very nice microscope, but I think that it is more of a collectors piece.

I wonder if it were possible to contact the seller - for that money you could have bought a more modern and more capable/practicable Zeiss microscope.

There are some members here who are very knowledgeable about Zeiss microscopes. I hope they can chip in.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpdrvxmaifz5j ... d.pdf?dl=0
You mean it won't work for practical purposes? :/
My goal was to buy a simple, yet high quality and durable microscope with which to learn the basic technique.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#7 Post by jemarch » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:46 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:27 pm
Congratulations.
Appears to be very nice. Both coarse and fine focusing, and a condenser. Also, a modern on-off and dimmer, instead of the original outdated power supply.
If it was never used, I would carefully inspect all mechanics when received - first thing to do. Focusing - coarse and fine, stage movement, condenser up-and down movement and centrability (if they are meant to be), head rotation, objective turret rotation - they are all initially lubricated, and if the microscope is ~60-70 years old, who knows.
Will do, thanks for the advise.
Then inspect the optics for fungus or delamination.
How to do that? For the fungus, I guess they should be visible when looking through the eyepiece/objective/condenser lense, but how to determine whether there is delamination?

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#8 Post by 75RR » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:57 pm

You mean it won't work for practical purposes? :/
My goal was to buy a simple, yet high quality and durable microscope with which to learn the basic technique.
It will work fine.

It is just that you have bought a collectors piece (with price to match)

My first microscope was a Zeiss Junior KF, and I have very fond memories of it.
How to do that? For the fungus, I guess they should be visible when looking through the eyepiece/objective/condenser lense, but how to determine whether there is delamination?
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ind ... delam.html

.
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#9 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:35 pm

@jemarch
Delamination can be expected in old Zeiss objectives as well as eyepieces, according to my somewhat limited experience.
A delaminated eyepiece is fairly easy to detect: when normally fitted on the microscope, and a 10X objective in place, brightfield, a fairly empty field of view (say, a small thin specimen, just to aid n focusiing), uniform brightness of the field of view, one observes an irregular borderline around the periphery of the field of view. A borderline between very slightly different hues in the view, say yellow vs bright tan, faintly greenish etc. When you rotate the eyepiece, the view "rotates".
A delaminated (or fungal) objective is more tricky. You do not see it by just normal observation of a focussed specimen as above. On my delaminated objectives, contrast is relatively poor, but that requires experience. Regretfully I only know two methods:
1. With the objective in place, remove the eyepiece and look into the eyepiece tube with a phase telescope. You can focus on the various lenses one by one and immediately see the signs - borderlines, "scratches", leaf-forms; again, rotate the objective to see that they arise from it.
2. With a stereo-microscope, and illumination from below, through the objective, inspect the lenses one by one. This works best.

However, before any of the above tests, I would blow all dust from the optics with a soft-hair camera pump-brush; and, if and only if necessary, gentle cleaning with a damp Q-tip and/or lens tissue/opticians soft cloth. To verify that external surfaces are clean.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#10 Post by MicroBob » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:41 pm

jemarch wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:41 pm
You mean it won't work for practical purposes? :/
My goal was to buy a simple, yet high quality and durable microscope with which to learn the basic technique.
Hi,
this microscope will suit you just fine. The Zeiss Standard Junior is a high quality and quite modern microscope that really is a joy to use. It was more modern than the GFL as it had interlocked fine an course focussing over a long range and the fosuc worked the table, not the arm. The Junior is also quite durable and excellently made- no trace of "junior" budget design and production here!
Your microscope in from the Bundeswehr, a special version with the built in lamp and was probably made in the 1960s perhaps even 70s as the Bundeswehr always bought proven and a bit outdated stuff.
The tube head is compatible with the Zeiss Standard system so you could buy a binocular or trinocular head, and/or an Optovar for it. The condenser mount is 39,5 (I think) and there have been a couple of condensers from Zeiss, Leitz and PZO in this mounting diameter.

The best way to check for delaminations is to focus a phase telescope through the stack of lenses and look for an image like a puddle of water on a white floor - a border line that swings in and out. These are fairly simple objectives that are less affected by delaminations.

At this price the microscope should work perfectly so the focus, condenser focus, stage movement and nose piece should work silky smooth and slighly dampened but not stiff.

Bob

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#11 Post by jemarch » Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:03 pm

Thank you people for all the info! I'm glad I didn't end buying something useless.
I will report what I find when the microscope arrives, along with a thousand questions I bet.
Can't wait ;)

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#12 Post by Wes » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:06 pm

The Junior is a very fine microscope. It was my first real microscope and it didn't have fancy illuminator but a mirror, no x-y stage but clips and a monocular tube. As basic as it gets and I had great fun with it. You can learn cool techniques like polarization, darkfield and oblique illumination.
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:35 pm
1. With the objective in place, remove the eyepiece and look into the eyepiece tube with a phase telescope.
If you include polarization with complete extinction delamination becomes very obvious, you just can't miss it. In the past I made my own phase telescope following the instructions provided here: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... phase.html But it could be easier/more convenient to just buy one.

something I've always wanted to but never got a real chance of trying was to set up DIC on the Junior. The PZO DIC system (they don't call it DIC but thats what it is) is almost certainly going to work (its extremely adaptable).
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#13 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 pm

Wes wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:06 pm
something I've always wanted to but never got a real chance of trying was to set up DIC on the Junior. The PZO DIC system (they don't call it DIC but thats what it is) is almost certainly going to work (its extremely adaptable).
Would you suggest that the PZO DIC could work on the Zeiss GFL ?

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#14 Post by Wes » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:17 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 pm
Wes wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:06 pm
something I've always wanted to but never got a real chance of trying was to set up DIC on the Junior. The PZO DIC system (they don't call it DIC but thats what it is) is almost certainly going to work (its extremely adaptable).
Would you suggest that the PZO DIC could work on the Zeiss GFL ?
I'm pretty sure I've seen it but have a hard time finding the link for you. Maybe someone more experience can provide some clarity but from what I've read the general consensus is that it works on very many different microscopes.
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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#15 Post by Charles » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:41 pm

Greetings jemarch and welcome.

Looks like a really nice Zeiss Junior KF especially with built in lighting. And the case looks great too. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

I started with it's slightly bigger brother a GFL and since them have quite a collection of different Zeiss models.

The listed KF has a mix of new and old Achromat and Plan Achromat lenses, which will be fine for what anyone would want to do starting out. Most prefer binocular or even trinocular head, but again some do like the monocular head, and yours can be upgraded if needed/wanted. I am amazed at the differences in prices of similar microscopes in Europe vs the US.

Enjoy,
Charles

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#16 Post by 75RR » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:50 am

You will have seen this image if you looked through the Standard pdf linked above, this one is a little bigger.

Left to Right: Standard Junior - Standard GFL - Standard WL - Photomikroskop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwer5yjkfwz6k ... g.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#17 Post by MicroBob » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:56 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:14 pm
Would you suggest that the PZO DIC could work on the Zeiss GFL ?
Hi Doron,
The GFL and Junior look very similar but are designed completely different. The GFL already has the Zeiss Standard ring dovetail into which the condenser is inserted from above. The Junior (and the PZO MB30 and Biolar) has a sleeve mount into which the condenser is inserted from below. The PZO DIC condenser has a straight dovetail mount for a rotating polarizer below the condenser. It might just be possible to adapt the PZO DIC condenser to the GFL but it won't be easy. I hve never seen this done. An adaptation to the WL would be easier as one could just reserve one special condenser mount for the PZO DIC condenser.
The analyser head of the PZO DIC system fits onto the GFL.

I have a Junior and I have a PZO DIC set but I havent tried them in combination.

Bob

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#18 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:32 am

MicroBob wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:56 am
It might just be possible to adapt the PZO DIC condenser to the GFL but it won't be easy.
Thanks Bob. Important info!

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#19 Post by jemarch » Tue May 05, 2020 10:25 pm

Hi again!

I got the Junior today. Very nice, and heavy!
All the controls work perfectly ok, but for the x-axis of the stage, which is very hard, and drags the y-axis control with it. Or I'm not using it properly :) Should be fixable though.

The scope came with a 2.5 plan objective, a 10x, a 40x and an oil immersion 100x.

I tried all of them to inspect a slide with fixated diatoms I bought in order to test the microscope. Used the very old Zeiss oil bottle that came with the microscope... worked like a charm :) Very nice these diatoms... there should be like thousand of them in this slide.

One thing... I'm gonna need to wipe the objetives, condenser and eyepieces from dust. Also the microscope itself. It is everywhere... any recommendation on how to best do this?

Ah, and something very weird... when using the 2.5 Plan objective there is a focus position where I can see a very clear perfect black filled circle, with a tiny white dot on its center. I know it is in the objective because when I rotate the objectives the UFO moves with them... what is that? Surely it is too perfect to be dirt or mold... or not? :D

Anyway, I'm having lots of fun with the scope already. Some of these diatoms are very beautiful... although most of them are broken, grrr!

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#20 Post by MicroBob » Wed May 06, 2020 10:29 am

Hi,
for optics cleaning "Wundbenzin" and "Augenwatte" are recommended, when blowing off the dust and wiping with condensed breath don't work.

One warning: Exactly these old Zeiss immersion oil bottles tend to break - so better fill the oil in a new bottle. Is it marked PCB-free? A dropper bottle is very useful.

A 2,5:1 objective offers a very wide field of view, wider than what the condenser usually illuminates. So you have to rack the condenser down or even remove it. Sometimes a pice of tissue in the light path just gives the right amount of diffraction to spread the illumination.

Bob

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#21 Post by jemarch » Wed May 06, 2020 12:02 pm

I just bought glasses cleaning tissues from REWE. They worked very well in eyepiece, condenser and objectives.

I will lower the condenser when using the 2.5x. Interestingly Zeiss manuals are adamant in that the right position of the condenser is _always_ at the top position...

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#22 Post by MicroBob » Wed May 06, 2020 1:14 pm

jemarch wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 12:02 pm
Interestingly Zeiss manuals are adamant in that the right position of the condenser is _always_ at the top position...
This is true - as long as you use the right condenser for the objective. :D There are special low power condensers for low power objectives.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#23 Post by jemarch » Wed May 06, 2020 1:16 pm

Makes sense :)

Basically the problem here is that the NA of the 2.5x is way bigger than the NA of the condenser, right? That's why a big area of the objective is not illuminated...

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#24 Post by jemarch » Wed May 06, 2020 1:19 pm

So let's say I want to get an air x60 objective... will any Zeiss objective work in my Junior? I suppose the Junior being a "standard" means any Zeiss standard objective will fit?

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#25 Post by jemarch » Wed May 06, 2020 1:31 pm

I quote from the "Microscopy from the very Beginning" manual from Zeiss:

"The adjustment of the condenser is a particularly frequent source of error. The condenser is correctly adjusted when it is in its highest position or directly below this and when its Iris has been closed only far enough to obtain just sufficient constrast. The beginner usually stops the condenser down far too much. Never use the condenser iris to dim the image! Other means e.g. gray filters must be used for this purpose. Lowering the condenser "to increase contrast", which is popular with many microscopists, only has the same effect as further closing the condenser iris an is therefore inappropriate.

If with objectives of very low power the illuminated field should be too small, swing out the front lens of the condenser and open its diaphragm fully."

Note the last paragraph... the Junior indeed has a swinging control for the condenser lens, and I was actually wondering what was it for... will try this tonight :)

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#26 Post by Charles » Wed May 06, 2020 2:17 pm

jemarch wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:19 pm
So let's say I want to get an air x60 objective... will any Zeiss objective work in my Junior? I suppose the Junior being a "standard" means any Zeiss standard objective will fit?
Zeiss does make a 63X NA 0.90 which will work with your Junior.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#27 Post by Charles » Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm

jemarch wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:31 pm
I quote from the "Microscopy from the very Beginning" manual from Zeiss:

"The adjustment of the condenser is a particularly frequent source of error. The condenser is correctly adjusted when it is in its highest position or directly below this and when its Iris has been closed only far enough to obtain just sufficient constrast. The beginner usually stops the condenser down far too much. Never use the condenser iris to dim the image! Other means e.g. gray filters must be used for this purpose. Lowering the condenser "to increase contrast", which is popular with many microscopists, only has the same effect as further closing the condenser iris an is therefore inappropriate.

If with objectives of very low power the illuminated field should be too small, swing out the front lens of the condenser and open its diaphragm fully."

Note the last paragraph... the Junior indeed has a swinging control for the condenser lens, and I was actually wondering what was it for... will try this tonight :)
For low power objectives like the 2.5X, you can just remove the condenser and just use the light coming up from the port.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#28 Post by jemarch » Wed May 06, 2020 2:54 pm

Charles wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 pm
jemarch wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:31 pm
I quote from the "Microscopy from the very Beginning" manual from Zeiss:

"The adjustment of the condenser is a particularly frequent source of error. The condenser is correctly adjusted when it is in its highest position or directly below this and when its Iris has been closed only far enough to obtain just sufficient constrast. The beginner usually stops the condenser down far too much. Never use the condenser iris to dim the image! Other means e.g. gray filters must be used for this purpose. Lowering the condenser "to increase contrast", which is popular with many microscopists, only has the same effect as further closing the condenser iris an is therefore inappropriate.

If with objectives of very low power the illuminated field should be too small, swing out the front lens of the condenser and open its diaphragm fully."

Note the last paragraph... the Junior indeed has a swinging control for the condenser lens, and I was actually wondering what was it for... will try this tonight :)
For low power objectives like the 2.5X, you can just remove the condenser and just use the light coming up from the port.
Yeah thats waht swinging the condenser lens achieves, without having to actually remove the whole condenser from the microscope.

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Re: Greetings from Frankfurt

#29 Post by MicroBob » Wed May 06, 2020 6:19 pm

An alternative to a 60:1 objective is a high power 40:1 dry objective like the Zeiss (Jena in this case) 40:1 0,95 Apo that would work well on a Zeiss West Junior when you choose the later 45mm version. To make full use of it resolving power you could then use a stronger eyepiece or an Optovar. The Junior is a real system microscope with lots of available add-ons!

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