Illumination without diffusive elements

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hans
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Illumination without diffusive elements

#1 Post by hans » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:51 am

I am curious if there are examples of mass-produced, somewhat-modern (say ~1950s or later) microscope illumination systems with all of these characteristics:
  1. Intended to support techniques other than bright field.
  2. Nonuniform source such as a coiled filament.
  3. Source sharply focused in a conjugate of the objective rear focal plane.
  4. No diffusing elements.

abednego1995
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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#2 Post by abednego1995 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:26 pm

I'm only Nikon, so here's a list of Nikon scopes that match your criteria.

1.S-Ke (L-Ke)
2.Apophot
3.Biophot
4.Microphot (SA,FX,FXA)
5.E600,E800,E1000

hans
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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#3 Post by hans » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:04 am

abednego1995 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:26 pm
5.E600,E800,E1000
I have never used any of these microscopes so I could be misunderstanding, but the E1000 manual actually indicates two different diffusers ("Purpose: Diffuse the light at the light source.") that can be selected in/out of the illumination path. One says "Select it when the motorized micro/macro condenser is used." and the other "Select it when the general condenser is used." So it sounds like there would always be a diffuser present during normal use?

The E600 manual also shows a selectable diffuser, although it apparently requires a tool to change and I didn't see anything saying what the use case or default setting would be.

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#4 Post by Zuul » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:39 am

Hans, if you haven’t read this, it may be of interest to you ... specifically the “hidden assumption” section.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ar ... ohler.html

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#5 Post by hans » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:32 am

Zuul wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:39 am
... specifically the “hidden assumption” section.
Thanks, I had not even considered what effect the filament not being planar might have. I was starting to worry I might run out of non-biological things to do with my microscope and be forced to actually hunt for microbes or something.

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#6 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:44 am

Mr Overney’s first reference is available here:
https://archive.org/details/cbarchive_4 ... 3/mode/2up

... with the option to download in various formats

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abednego1995
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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#7 Post by abednego1995 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 am

>Hans

Good point. Though I listed the E series as "diffusorless" actual operation normally is favored with the diffusor in the light path in diascopic illumination. This is due to compromises in the design that doesn't allow for filament position adjustment. The filament image is too large at low NA, too small at high NA. With the diffusor inserted it works "so-so" for all. Probably more of a theoretical problem for Koehler purists. However, when you use the oil DF condenser, the normal setup with the diffusor is lossy and dark, whereas without the diffusor, the illumination train can't fill the maximum aperture. Hence they provide a beam expander as an option.

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#8 Post by hans » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:41 pm

abednego1995 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 am
The filament image is too large at low NA, too small at high NA. With the diffusor inserted it works "so-so" for all. Probably more of a theoretical problem for Koehler purists.
Thanks for the details, I suspect the Reichert 410 is like this but it is hard to tell exactly what is going on because the diffuser is a frosted surface of the collector lens so I am unable to attain the "pure Koehler experience" of viewing the filament through a phase telescope.
abednego1995 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:26 pm
2.Apophot
This example is interesting, from here: "...a zoom lens system adjusts the image of the light source on the conjugate plane at the condenser diaphragm..."

Seems like there is not much information about it on the internet. Have you used one? Does the zoom system allow you to maintain a constant magnification of the filament to the objective rear focal plane for all objectives?

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#9 Post by hans » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:47 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:44 am
Mr Overney’s first reference is available here:
https://archive.org/details/cbarchive_4 ... 3/mode/2up
After several minutes admiring the one figure, it occurred to me, my username may be misleading. I am just an American who happens to be named Hans, and unfortunately speak no German.

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#10 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:54 pm

hans wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:47 pm
After several minutes admiring the one figure, it occurred to me, my username may be misleading. I am just an American who happens to be named Hans, and unfortunately speak no German.
:D :D

DeepL might be your saviour:
https://www.deepl.com/en/translator

MichaelG.
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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#11 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:18 pm

Yeah that article is a gas. Scientists had some fun in the 19th century.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#12 Post by abednego1995 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:55 am

>Hans

Yes, nice microscope but I don't own one. Too large and cumbersome with too little fraternity:-)
The Apophot has a dial which has settings for each magnification, so as long as the operator is keen to adjust it every time they change mags it works like a charm. But again it's up to the operator. Another microscope that has the feature is the UnivaR by Reichert (1973). The UnivaR had everything electronically coupled, so of course this was automagically tended to.

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#13 Post by hans » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:34 pm

abednego1995 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:55 am
Another microscope that has the feature is the UnivaR by Reichert (1973).
Quite an impressive-looking microscope, no shortage of room in the stand for a zoom system, I suppose.

Have you ever seen a manual/brochure showing approximately the layout of the optics in one of these systems? Apophot, UnivaR, or any other?

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wporter
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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#14 Post by wporter » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:56 pm

FWIW, here's a 'sketchy' diagram of the Univar optics, pun intended. The relay system is that horizontal path with the trapezoidal prism that loops up to the left & back.
Univar optics exploded-1024x1024.png
Univar optics exploded-1024x1024.png (231.57 KiB) Viewed 6752 times

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#15 Post by hans » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:28 pm

wporter wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:56 pm
FWIW, here's a 'sketchy' diagram of the Univar optics, pun intended.
Thank you, before even speculating about which parts are the illumination zoom, it looks like this diagram is showing four separate illumination sources that can be directed in various combinations into the transmitted/reflected paths?

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wporter
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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#16 Post by wporter » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:08 pm

it looks like this diagram is showing four separate illumination sources that can be directed in various combinations into the transmitted/reflected paths?
With so-called 'mirror housing 4', yes. I have mirror-housing 2, so am limited to choices involving hbo/xbo (on the right side of the scope) and 100w halogen (on the left side).

Below is the sketch showing the relay area and the illumination zoom. The zoom is detailed more in patent 3,876,289, assigned to American Optical in 1975.
annotated Univar optics exploded-1024x1024.png
annotated Univar optics exploded-1024x1024.png (239.94 KiB) Viewed 6733 times

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#17 Post by hans » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:08 am

wporter wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:08 pm
The zoom is detailed more in patent 3,876,289, assigned to American Optical in 1975.
Thanks, I was about to say, with no rays traced out and no indication of which elements move, probably hopeless for me to conclude much beyond, "yup, that's a lot of lenses."

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Re: Illumination without diffusive elements

#18 Post by blekenbleu » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:39 pm

hans wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:51 am
No diffusing elements.
An AO model 120 has convenient knobs for switching diffuser in or out,
and for focusing the collector lens (called condenser) on the filament.
Image
Nearly all AO infinity options, including Bertrand to facilitate lamp filament focus, can be employed.
https://blekenbleu.github.io/microscope/AO/
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

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