Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

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MarkG
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Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#1 Post by MarkG » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:39 pm

Can anyone ID my Zeiss rotating condenser 40 35 196 I can't find the number ref in online Zeiss manuals or google search.

It has 2 delaminated PH rings no iris and some blank holes D & J it's an apl 1.4NA not the flip type. Looks like the typical Zeiss condenser adjustments and etc.

It can't be removed from the Ziess Standard (16?) stand without removing the entire stage. Is it normal to have to remove the stage with Zeiss Standard 16 to remove condenser? What was the original scope it was designed for? (my scope may have a stage from some other model not sure but it otherwise stage works fine)

Thanks for you help
MarkG

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75RR
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#2 Post by 75RR » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:29 pm

In the manuals I have the condenser catalogue numbers start with 46 and are 6 figures.
Not all Zeiss condensers have a catalogue number written on them, that might be a serial number.

Could you post a photo of it?
If you tell us what numbers it has written on the side (corresponding to the ports) it should be possible to ID it.

You should be able to remove the condenser by raising the stage as high as it will go and then lowering the condenser as low as it will go.
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Charles
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#3 Post by Charles » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:09 pm

It sounds like a standard Zeiss phase condenser. They usually have Ph2, Ph3, D (darkfield), J (Brightfield with iris and sometimes they will have the Ph1 with another open slot for whatever one wishes to put in it.

Like was mentioned, to remove, raise the stage to the top, and then lower the condenser holder to the bottom. Then you will need to pull the condenser toward you (towards the front) to compress the holding pin in front and then lift out from the back. Sometimes it helps to loosen the two adjusting knurled knobed bolts in the back of the condenser holder.

Pictures do help.

MarkG
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#4 Post by MarkG » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:31 pm

Thanks for the replies. So quickly. Lifting stage and lowering condenser doesn't give enough clearance. The top lens catches on the opening in the stage. I will remove the stage again and try to post a photo. This is my first post so I assume I can figure out how to attach photo. 3 phots attached "I think"

Perhaps my condenser motion is limited somehow total motion is about 1/2 inch.

Thanks so much.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#5 Post by MarkG » Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:12 am

Forgot to add. It has following positions:

PH1 Ph2 Ph3 with annuli present

J and D open

4 and 5 open

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#6 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:21 am

I've never had to remove the stage to remove the condenser. All stages sit on the same stage holder and unless this is an unusual or non-Zeiss stage, they all sit the same height. There must me something preventing the stage from moving all the way up or keeping the condenser from moving all the way down.

You could try unscrewing the top lens of the condenser.

Pictures would be very helpful.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#7 Post by 75RR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:45 am

3 phots attached "I think"
Not visible!

A lot of us use Photobucket: upload your photo, copy the direct link, press Img on the toolbar here and paste it in-between the brackets.

Here is an example of a Zeiss Condenser that does not have a catalogue number written on it.

Image
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#8 Post by MarkG » Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:30 am

Not on photobucket, but my condenser looks exactly like the one you pictured except between Zeiss and Germany is the number 4035196. It's 4 inches in diameter and overall height 1 3/4 inches from bottom of mounting flange to top of lens

I can't remove the lens while condenser is mounted to scope no room between top of condenser and stage.

The stage moves up until the bracket holding the stage is flush with the horizontal sheet metal piece on the main body.


Now I see the problem "file too big" only allow 512 kB i reduced to 640 x 480 turn our to be 531k halved it and attached I think it's there now




Thanks for you kind assistance
Mark
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IMG_2013small2.jpg
IMG_2013small2.jpg (51.16 KiB) Viewed 3687 times
IMG_2016small2.jpg
IMG_2016small2.jpg (38.28 KiB) Viewed 3687 times

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75RR
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#9 Post by 75RR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:00 am

Looks like mine. Might be 46 52 77. The calalogue however shows it with additional lenses - wondering if that might be a misprint.
When the lens is meant to be removed it is ridged for grip.
The stage moves up until the bracket holding the stage is flush with the horizontal sheet metal piece on the main body.
Not sure what you mean by that ... send a photo of your stage raised as high as it will go.

zeiss optical systems catalogue link:
https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa=t&r ... j0WhjXWoDw
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#10 Post by MarkG » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:33 am

Give me a few minutes I will photo the scope with stage off as it is now. I think the condenser rack is not going all the way down.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#11 Post by MarkG » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:59 am

Ok got photos and resized etc with stage all the way up and condenser all the way down.

The distance from the top of the condenser mount to the top of the stage mount is 1 1/16 inch. The condenser from mounting face to top of lens is 1 1/2 inch. i.e. the condenser lens protrudes above the stage mounting surface i.e. the bottom of the stage.

Just not enough space.

Can you tell from the photos if the stage is going up all the way, or the condenser is going down all the way i.e. normal?

Again thanks for your efforts. I really didn't expect so much attention.
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IMG_2018[1]small1.jpg
IMG_2018[1]small1.jpg (61.92 KiB) Viewed 3675 times

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charlie
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#12 Post by charlie » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:01 am

The condenser carrier is not at the bottom of its travel in any of the photos.

The black knob on the front, right controls condenser travel. If that is all the movement that you can get, then something must be restricting travel.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#13 Post by MarkG » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:31 am

Thanks Charlie. That seems it could be causing the problem. I will have to figure out how to get it apart. I wouldn't be surprised if the screw that holds the rack in place has backed out into the track, or maybe the gear or rack is damaged.

Thanks much that gives me something to go ahead with. Still if can't be fixed the scope still functions mechanically OK, just a hassle to remove condenser something not done often.


Thanks
Mark

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#14 Post by 75RR » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:02 am

That is unusual. The condenser carrier should drop down on to the base. In fact the base is the stop.
If you remove the arm (4 Allen screws in the base) the condenser carrier comes right off.
Easy enough to remove the arm and put it back if you want to be able to have a closer look at things to see why it does not move any more.
Make sure to remove the head and the objectives first though!

Microscope looks fine by the way. See you have the "old" trinocular head.
Now that cameras are digital and have live view it is a practical proposition once more.
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#15 Post by MarkG » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:08 am

I took the good advice from 75RR. I've had the bottom off before so it was easy to do again. With base stage and condenser removed I could look more closely at the condenser mechanism. The knob controlling up/down only turns just a bit over 1/2 turn before stopping. I could not run the condenser holder off the bottom of the rack as it stops before that point. I would need to force the knob to go any further. So I thought maybe I could remove it some other way.

The mechanism rides on a steel dovetail. A rack is screwed to the dovetail with 2 screws it appears to be plastic. If the rack was loosened the assembly could slide off the bottom. The bottom screw is easily removed but the upper screw is only accessible if the condenser holder is removed. Catch 22. So I couldn't disassemble that way either. I tried to pull the knob and shaft out of the gear and was able to move it about 1/4" but then it stopped and was afraid to force it.

I can't see up into the mechanism very well but I assume the rack or the gear has a damaged tooth. Seeing the rack is plastic it could have taken a hit. The gear may be plastic so I don't want to attempt forcing the thing apart.

So for the time being I put it back together. It has enough range of motion to set up Kohler illumination. At some point I may find some spare parts to replace the assembly. Problem not solved but at least I know what I need to do.

By the way having the condenser out I found the top lens could be unscrewed it was very tight but with a good finder grip I was able to remove. I was then able to remove the lens bracket, top and bottom covers. It was very stiff to rotate and I never got it apart because I didn't know it the lens was removable. Anyway I was able to clean the sticky grease and also discovered the unit has an Iris installed it was just retracted and I didn't see it. While cleaning the old grease surprise the Iris closed down due to my handling. So know I have a smooth rotating condenser with easily adjustable Iris. Info from you folks gave me the courage to get that lens off and fix the grease problem.

The scope was an Ebay auction it has a set of Neofluar Phase objectives unfortunately a fair amount of delamination. One of the eyepieces had an annoying level of delam and has been replaced. I bought the scope as I wanted to learn about phase contrast. It came with the 6V power supply and an Optivar with the old 35mm Zeiss camera. I got a phase telescope for it on ebay in very good condition. I would like to get a digital camera set up but need to watch my budget. I think the performance is degraded due to delam of objectives and condenser rings, but can tell those Neofluars were once top notch equipment. I will be asking questions about that in the future. I also have a pretty good Zeiss Axiostar with standard CP objectives and BF condenser. I bought the set of Ebay DF sliders and they work well. I wanted to set it up with a trinocular and phase but have not seen much available for the last 2-3 years. So I bought the Standard. To top of the collection I have a Meiji Stereo with ebay LED ring and an old black B&L stereo with the light pod that can be set up above or below the stage it's actually quite good quality but the Meiji with it's wider field and better eye relief is easier to look through but no below stage lighting yet. I have a lot of improvements to make. Plus learning to explore the micro-world. Up here in Wisconsin it's a nice winter hobby

Again thanks for all you time and effort to help. I'm so impressed people would be so considerate of a stranger.

Mark

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#16 Post by Charles » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:44 am

Hi Mark,

Did you remove the front pin on the condenser holder? The part circled below in red.
Condenser holder.JPG
Condenser holder.JPG (37.61 KiB) Viewed 3638 times
On your phase condenser there are also two adjusting levers/wheels to center your phase rings. The knurled lever on the side when loosened allows you to move the lever back and forth and the 'wheel' on the front when turned will move it side to side. When you removed the bottom of the two covers, there should have been a ball bearing on top of a post on the 'wheel' which does two things. It clicks into a groove at each position when you turn the condenser. It also aids in the side by side motion to center your phase annuli. So hopefully it didn't fall out and is still in place.

Both the rack and gear should be brass. You could try using a drop of solvent between the gear and rack, let it soak in for a bit and then run the rack back and forth until you can work it down to it's full down position. When turning the plastic condenser knob, also use your hand to push down on the condenser holder to 'help' it going down.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#17 Post by 75RR » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:20 am

If Charles' solvent suggestion does not work, then the only thing I can think of is that one of the screws is loose and jamming the works.
If you remove the arm again (sorry) and hold it so that the loose screw has a chance to drop partly back into its hole while you jiggle it about, it just might slide out.

Image
Image
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#18 Post by MarkG » Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:25 am

Thanks Charles
Yes I removed and replaced the spring latch circled in red. I also cleaned & replaced the ball detent/spring on the condenser. The thing now rotates freely and snaps properly into place. Both the Annulus adjustments are free and smooth as well as the Iris adjustment. I have you to thank for getting it apart cleaned and lubed. Previously I was afraid to try and remove the lens, it was very tight and I gave up before applying the last of my strength. I was able to align the phase rings with the Phase Telescope. They need some fine tuning to make them all the same position but good enough. It was nowhere as tricky as the nose piece. As received it was barely moveable the center left hand screw was stuck but I got it cleaned and lubed including the 12 inner and 60 outer tiny ball bearings. I did it sitting on the floor over a white pillow case that way parts didn't have far to fall/bounce around it was intense.

Thanks 75RR
My condenser holder is a little different from the one pictured. There is only one screw on the bottom the one holding the rack, the rack is black and seems to be plastic but could be blackened steel but it seems to have a little flex so possibly plastic not sure. The screw holding the dovetail comes in from the backside and is not in the same place as you're picture. It has the upper stop screw like your's but it's just a plain screw not an eccentric as your's appears to be. When the knob stops there is a discernable Thump like a solid interference I don't think it's thick grease because it otherwise moves freely. I'm going to leave it for now and watch ebay for an assembly if I have one in hand then I can push my present one a little more. I just don't want to break a serviceable part. Nothing loose or rattling in there either. I can see both top and bottom rack screws are in there proper places. Maybe the condenser holder is from one of the smaller student models or something like that. I can live with it now I know I have the correct condenser.

I hope you didn't take your scope apart for the pics If you did that was beyond the call of duty.

By the way my water heater died today so I spent most of my time in the basement doing remove and install. Why can't they standardize on the fitting locations and heigts???

Thanks All

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#19 Post by Charles » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:11 pm

Hi Mark,

Good work!

Was just checking to make sure you had that front pin since it is vital for centering your condenser.

Those ball bearings can be a challenge. I always work over an old t-shirt for those falling bearings and screws and keep a magnet attached to the end of a telescoping wand handy for those pieces that escape.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#20 Post by MarkG » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:25 pm

Thank you all for your help.

It is sometimes a bit scary to wrench on something you're not sure if it is supposed to come apart the way you are attempting. With the old scope everything is very tight and removing screws and such is just at the limit of stripping the heads or breaking something. I have a high quality set of jewelers screwdrivers they have nice hard tips and help a lot. The info and guidance you guys provided gave me confidence I was not doing something wrong.

I'm very happy with my smooth functioning condenser. The scope has some issues with delam of objectives and phase stops I may post some questions on that in a separate post. Anyway I'm grateful as my scope has moved up another rung on the ladder to "perfection". In some ways the images are more pleasing then the Axiostar but I think the star even with the CP-acromats has a bit more resolution. I need to spend some time with the phase contrast to learn it's uses. Still learning. I have not yet moved on to the Tessavar and a camera setup. The trinocular head was one of the reasons I purchased the Standard as I just could not find any Trinoculars for the Axiostar only saw one so far and it was over $500 and located in the Netherlands.

Lot's of questions I hope not to hog to much time on the forum as I don't have a lot to offer others in return.

Thanks

P.S. Charles I've seen your scope collection on the forum WOW!
Mark

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#21 Post by MarkG » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:29 pm

I thought I would like to post some pics of the final results. I found a rack on ebay for a reasonable price so after spending another hour carefully looking at what was visible I decided the only possible problem was damage to the plastic rack. The bay seller listed it as for Standard 18 not a 16.

So I pushed and forced the condenser holder off the bottom of the rack (not tools just hand pressure). Indeed it was damaged and I probably damaged it further as it went down very very tight. So attached are some pics of the parts. Maybe this will be helpful to someone else. Don't know if the forum has an archive of pics by scope type but that would be useful to many.

Note the rack is indeed plastic with straight i.e. horizontal teeth and the pinion is a metal gear with straight teeth not helical like you see above in 75RRs post.

Thanks Again to all
Attachments
aIMG_2031small.jpg
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aIMG_2029small.jpg
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#22 Post by 75RR » Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:33 am

Did not expect that.
Luckily Original quality replacements are not hard to get.
Last edited by 75RR on Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#23 Post by MarkG » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:43 am

Here's some pics of the ebay parts. The dovetail is brass and has with 3 mounting screws. The bottom screw holds the plastic rack and the dovetail. The middle screw just the dovetail the next screw the dovetail and the rack and acts as a stop. The top screw just holds the dovetail. It's a disappointment they used plastic for the rack must be just for the 18 or at one point in time??? I would like to eventually replace it all with a Standard 16 style all brass setup but don't know if all the screw holes are the same i.e. interchangeable. I assume if I replaced the whole assembly stage and condenser together it would fit.

See ebays pics below.
Attachments
dovetail with rack attached side view
dovetail with rack attached side view
Ebayl1600small.jpg (34.16 KiB) Viewed 3573 times
the backside of dovetail
the backside of dovetail
Ebay2l1600small.jpg (40.89 KiB) Viewed 3573 times

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#24 Post by Charles » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:22 am

I don't believe yours is an 18. It is either a 15 or 16 which is actually the same as the 14. All these models do not have the removable turrets where as the 18 does. Even on all my 14, 15 and 16, the racks are brass with steel gears. It may have been a newer model and they started using plastic parts. The Axio also has a lot of plastic including the stage rack and gear.

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#25 Post by MarkG » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:56 am

I think my standard may be hybrid. The base has a label saying it's a 16. And the nose is not removeable making it like a 14,15,16. The ebay seller listed 2 condenser racks. One he called 16 was brass with the helical gear like 75RR posted above. The one that looks like mine with the plain straight gear he l listed as 18. I don't know one way or the other. I guess if one is careful plastic will suffice. The knob assembly is also different the knob appears to be pressed on and the other end has a screw, a plastic cap, a wavy washer, a steel washer with D shaped hole, and a fiber washer. Tighten the hex head screw to increase friction. I assume this is needed due to the change to a straight gear vs a helical. But who knows. It worked OK but had some slop/backlash maybe wear or maybe the straight gear design. It is adequate to get and hold Kohler. The ebay seller also has one of these knob assemblies available he lists as 18.

Thanks for noting the Axio has plastic I will need to treat it with care. I didn't know that. As it stands is seems to be in excellent condition all motions are free and smooth but I have nothing better to compare it too. My only issue is I can't find a trinocular or sliders etc.

pic of knob attached you can see the plastic cap and wavy washer but not the other parts
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knob ebay listed as 18
knob ebay listed as 18
s-l1600bSmall.jpg (42.72 KiB) Viewed 3569 times

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#26 Post by 75RR » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:29 am

Well, it would appear that Zeiss has been skimping on some of the later Standards!

The areas I have identified so far are:

Condenser dial and track
Filter holders
Illuminator/Field diaphragm housing

In all of these, plastic has been substituted for metal.

Several or all of these parts have been incorporated in some of the Zeiss Standards that have the printed logo rather than the medallion.
I imagine these were the last to be produced.

First image has the better quality parts.
Note that the condenser dial has a metal center.
Image Image
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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#27 Post by MarkG » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:50 pm

Fixed with new rack from ebay. Clearance from top of Condenser holder to top of stage holder was 1 1/16" now is 2". Condenser slides in an out no problem. Attached is a photo with stage all the way up and condenser all the way down. Note the bottom of the stage mechanism is 1" above the base and the bottom of the Condenser mechanism is flush with the base. Compare to original photos above.

Hope this info is helpful if anyone else runs in to this problem.

Once again thanks all for helping.
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Condenser goes all the way down to base
Condenser goes all the way down to base
AfterNewRack2.jpg (66.83 KiB) Viewed 3534 times

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Re: Zeiss Condenser ID 40 35 160 ?

#28 Post by Charles » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:14 pm

Looks good Mark. Glad it worked out.

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