microscope buying question

[Oktagon]

Olympuses are superb scopes. Early ones from the 60s are basically Zeiss clones, but starting from the 70s they ave developped their own really diverse line. Great optics, typical Japanese quality and attention to details. They may use zink alloy parts where old Zeiss used brass, but for all intensive purpouses the quality is compatible. Modern Olympus scopes are just as good as their German counterparts. Probably 70% of clinical labs I visit have Olympus scopes in Hematology, Micro or Pathology, if not all three. Their WF eyepieces, as mentioned above are best in the business.
BH2 can be had in many flavors, and I have yet to find a dead BH2. Even when used as door stop in lecture hall, after CLA they produc perfect images. The only thing is that not that many BH2s come with trino heads, but as a modular instrument, they can be purchased separately. Olympus still sells parts and services BH2s as far as I know. A BH2 purchased from this forum member will outright beat any brand new Omax with plastic focus gearing and very cheaply made optics (Omax optics is OK, but if you ever need to servise an onjective, just buy a new one, as some internal elements are cemented to the spacers, not fitted and held by tentioning rings as in professional instruments).

As far as confusing new microscopists, my apologies, but this is a complex hobby and all of us have to do allot of reading and literature research. Sometimes I feel like recomending a $75 toy microscope for novices. The reson being is that if they like what they see (toy scopes are OK for 50-300x magnifications), they will learn enough to understand the lighting techniques and basic principles of light diamicroscopy and perhaps purchase a good profssional unit with minimal monetary loss for their first microscope.
My first microscope was Russian Analyt 1 (Soviet copy of Tasco), which I got when I was 10, followed by various flavors of LOMO Biolams. Only in grad school and later post-doc years did I finally start using big research units.

[KurtM]

Whenever I'm just getting into a hobby and don't know much of anything about it, I don't want to study a pile of damnable engineering notes ... what I really crave is for somebody to just tell me what to get, so I can start the journey with a cool looking new (to me) instrument in my hot little hands. I generally have exactly zero desire to tackle a lengthy reading list when what I really want is an interesting fun new plaything!

Not saying it's what most people want/need, or the best way to go; but it's what I want, when I'm the noobie.

I'm with Lorez: don't know if just any microscope is better than no microscope; some days I think probably so, and other days maybe not so much.

One thing I do think is safe to say, however: the first thing a newcomer should do is poll the forum to see if any members might have a complete turnkey microscope for sale in a reasonable beginner's price range. I have seen some incredibly sweet deals offered here.

[Dale]

Amen. I thank my lucky stars I found this site in time. I made a huge spreadsheet of
Amsco, and a few other new brands. The terms were difficult, but after reading a few different
explanations, well, I had many 'a ha' moments, I still struggle with N.A.
I think it comes down to getting a new scope loaded with bells and buzzers that you
may or may not use, and a solid beautiful proffesionaly refurbished oldy. In my opinion,
banjos and microscopes can be rated by their weight.
Kurt, tell me, is a Barlow lens the same as an eyepiece? Must now get back to
assembling my Nikon.
Dale

[Oktagon]

One thing I do think is safe to say, however: the first thing a newcomer should do is poll the forum to see if any members might have a complete turnkey microscope for sale in a reasonable beginner's price range. I have seen some incredibly sweet deals offered here.

Agree completely.

A monocular LOMO Biolam with 3 objectives (8, 40, 90); 7x and 15x eyepieces and a mirror can be had for $125, and it is a full featured scope which can be later upgraded.

[apatientspider]

..........
Kurt, tell me, is a Barlow lens the same as an eyepiece? Must now get back to
assembling my Nikon.
Dale

Depends on whether you are talking telescopes or microscopes:
http://www.microscope.com/education-cen ... rlow-lens/


Jim

[Dale]

I thought a Barlow lens on a telecope gave it increased magnification, the same as
an eyepiece on a microscope. Never had a telescope..........
Dale

[apatientspider]

I thought a Barlow lens on a telecope gave it increased magnification, the same as
an eyepiece on a microscope. Never had a telescope..........
Dale

It does according to this: https://www.telescopesplus.com/blogs/he ... arlow-lens


But on a stereo microscope the lens fits on the objective, between it and the specimen. And it doesn't necessarily increase the magnification. On a telescope it fits between the objective, or mirror, and the eyepiece....apparently. I've never had a telescope either, except a toy.

Jim

[Dale]

Thanks for the links, at one time I was looking at a telescope but nothing happened.
It just dawned on me that I'll be moving from the smoggy poluted subburbs to the
crystal clear skies of Sequim, perhaps a telescope?
Dale

[lorez]

The Olympus BH-2 series are very, very nice microscopes. ..... I have several I use in outreach

Mr Tom Jones has an exemplary out reach program. He is using the BH2s very effectively with large groups of students and is offering an experience that they may not otherwise have the opportunity for.

lorez

[kit1980]

You can buy into DIC microscopy for under a $1000!

Could you point to some examples? I haven't seen anything close to this price on ebay.

[Metrophage]

Thanks for the links, at one time I was looking at a telescope but nothing happened.
It just dawned on me that I'll be moving from the smoggy poluted subburbs to the
crystal clear skies of Sequim, perhaps a telescope?
Dale

I've owned a decent telescope for the better part of 2 decades and a microscope for 2 weeks. Absolutely love taking out my telescope but to be completely honest I get a lot more milage out of my 7x50 binoculars. I'd absolutely recommend a pair as a stepping stone if you are serious about a telescope. They are very quick and easy to use, surprisingly good at resolving nebula, clusters, etc plus they are versatile. I take them everywhere - concerts, footy games, bird watching you name it.

Can't really add much to what the experts have said about choosing a scope but I do want to add that with things like Microscope or Telescopes you should consider them a long term investment. Take your time and pick something with a solid construction you can see yourself using in 2, 5, 10 years time.

I thought a Barlow lens on a telecope gave it increased magnification, the same as
an eyepiece on a microscope. Never had a telescope..........
Dale

Mine sits inline with the eye piece and gives an extra 2x magnification plus it flips/inverts the image. Personally, I don't like using it because it degrades image clarity though it is pretty awesome when looking at the moon.

[billbillt]

I have a nice telescope here that I have had for thirty years... I rarely take it out anymore due to light pollution in my area..

BillT

[apochronaut]

You can buy into DIC microscopy for under a $1000!

Could you point to some examples? I haven't seen anything close to this price on ebay.

I haven't seen much of that either. Maybe for the DIC system alone, to be fitted to an existing stand. There is the occasional Zeiss Standard, usually needing renovation for a lower price and if you look hard enough maybe a PZO Biolar. The BH2s, talked about here, although obviously a good basic microscope seem to run close to 1000.00 just for a BF version , well out of the price range of a beginner, who can land an OMAX with phase for 500.00, new.

[Oktagon]

You can buy into DIC microscopy for under a $1000!

Could you point to some examples? I haven't seen anything close to this price on ebay.

Sure! You can buy Zeiss Jena DIC kit for about $700 which would include 2 polarizing filters and 2 Nomarski prizms. You can also purchase Zeiss "single arrow" DIC/PhC condenser and a single DIC rotating prizm which turns any Photomic or Universal into full DIC microscope. The condencers go for around $600-$650 amd the prizm is going to run you about $350. So, here you go a DIC for under $1000. Allot of times you can also find LOMO and PZO units for even cheaper.
Of course, you need to have a microscope first. I doubt you can find a full DIC microscope for under $1000, but there are also less expensive options than those I outlined above. For example if you already own epiilluminated microscope, reflected light DIC is cheaper, since you don't need expensive DIC condenser.

[kit1980]

You can buy into DIC microscopy for under a $1000!

Could you point to some examples? I haven't seen anything close to this price on ebay.

Sure! You can buy Zeiss Jena DIC kit for about $700 which would include 2 polarizing filters and 2 Nomarski prizms. You can also purchase Zeiss "single arrow" DIC/PhC condenser and a single DIC rotating prizm which turns any Photomic or Universal into full DIC microscope. The condencers go for around $600-$650 amd the prizm is going to run you about $350. So, here you go a DIC for under $1000. Allot of times you can also find LOMO and PZO units for even cheaper.
Of course, you need to have a microscope first. I doubt you can find a full DIC microscope for under $1000, but there are also less expensive options than those I outlined above. For example if you already own epiilluminated microscope, reflected light DIC is cheaper, since you don't need expensive DIC condenser.

OK, I didn't understand you mean $1000 + you need to have a microscope first.

[75RR]

OK, I didn't understand you mean $1000 + you need to have a microscope first.

This would have been an excellent start to such a project: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Stan ... SwknJXyv9a

[apochronaut]

Except that for 150.00, one can buy a complete functional microscope, from many makers,, going back to the original intent of the post.

such as
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AO-American-Opt ... SwFdtXxHku
or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-KHC-Ser ... Sw9r1V8Ly8

[einman]

You can buy into DIC microscopy for under a $1000!

Could you point to some examples? I haven't seen anything close to this price on ebay.

I haven't seen much of that either. Maybe for the DIC system alone, to be fitted to an existing stand. There is the occasional Zeiss Standard, usually needing renovation for a lower price and if you look hard enough maybe a PZO Biolar. The BH2s, talked about here, although obviously a good basic microscope seem to run close to 1000.00 just for a BF version , well out of the price range of a beginner, who can land an OMAX with phase for 500.00, new.

Not true in regards to the BH-2 ( although your comments regarding DIC are). The last two BH-2's I purchased were fulled equipped for BF with Dplan objectives for less than $500 and for all practical purposes were new". No signs of wear.
I even bought one with the trinocular widefield head and eyepieces for less than $500. Patience is a virtue.

One I sold with widefield head has been featured prominently on this forum. As of late I have seen several pop up and sell for less than $300 all looking very new based on the pictures. They go fast once they appear. I just purchased a like new Olympus SZH with stand and equipped with both photo attachments for less than $500. Although not a compound, the point being the deals abound you just have to find them.

[apochronaut]

Of course patience is a virtue, if you set your heart on a specific model or component; and you know enough about me to know that I know that but the thread was established by a novice looking for information about making a first purchase. Any number of microscopes will do the job admirably and for a lot less than a bh2.
Any one with such a choice to make, has a comparison of readily available, off the shelf , warrantied, new, oriental microscopes or various used models that can be readily sourced( which mostly means ebay), to weigh against one another. Not normally are bh2 microscopes available, in good working order, at the prices you are quoting, whereas there is likely to be some other sturdy, well known brand of microscope available at a target price at any given point in time. If someone is looking just for a good, functional binocular or trinocular microscope for a certain price, then filter the price on ebay and see what is there. All of the better brands of the past do about the same job, and are also upgradeable( that's where the patience is required), to varying degrees. If you find one in the right price range, you can always find out info. about it.
At the novice level, brand adherence shouldn't be a factor because it would be based on hearsay not experience, and that can be a costly toolbox full of information.
Ultimately, a microscope purchase at the level being discussed here is a value for dollar purchase and certain brands are undervalued right now and certain others are overvalued. I would say that the bh2 probably is an average to slightly overvalued microscope at this point in time.

[Oktagon]

OK, I didn't understand you mean $1000 + you need to have a microscope first.

This would have been an excellent start to such a project: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Stan ... SwknJXyv9a

Yes, and you can get a WL stand for even cheaper.

[Oktagon]

I think that allot of approaches to purchasing a microscope are valid, however being a collector myself I always look at system compatibility as well as resale value. A scope from one of the "big 4" will always sell as long as it is in reasonsble condition. A single investment in something like Zeiss WL stand will get you a lifetime instrument expandable to almost anythiung you want.

[Oktagon]

So, speaking of DIC microscopes under $1000, here is on on sale right now.
It's Zeiss Standard for reflected light. Add transmitted light stage, DIC condenser with two arrows and a light source and you are all set, or just add light source and use it as reflected light-only scope.

[75RR]

So, speaking of DIC microscopes under $1000, here is on on sale right now.
It's Zeiss Standard for reflected light. Add transmitted light stage, DIC condenser with two arrows and a light source and you are all set, or just add light source and use it as reflected light-only scope.

A link would be nice

[Oktagon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Reflected ... Sw9IpXxRN-


Yes. I thought I pasted it.

Thee is also BF reconditioned Universal II with 40 and 63 planapo objectives and 3 plans /no delamination for $900 with free shipping. That would be a lifetime investment.

NO, I'm not the seller I was just browsing looking for 80x Epiplan HD, since I'm tired of switching mine between the stands.

[kit1980]

I've never encountered a reflected light DIC microscope, so I've just read about it at https://www.microscopyu.com/techniques/ ... microscopy

Quote from that page:

When compared to the typical configuration employed in transmitted light microscopy, the critical instrument parameters for reflected (or episcopic) light differential interference contrast (DIC) are much simpler, primarily because only a single birefringent Nomarski or Wollaston prism is required, and the objective serves as both the condenser and image-forming optical system.

My understanding that this Zeiss microscope is not suitable to "view living cells.. like for example water from a pond" as the topic starter asked. Your wrote "Add transmitted light stage, DIC condenser with two arrows and a light source and you are all set", but I don't think it's a cheap or easy task. Plus, I don't think reflected light objectives will work good with slides and coverslips.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Reflected ... Sw9IpXxRN-

[Oktagon]

I've never encountered a reflected light DIC microscope, so I've just read about it at https://www.microscopyu.com/techniques/ ... microscopy

Quote from that page:

When compared to the typical configuration employed in transmitted light microscopy, the critical instrument parameters for reflected (or episcopic) light differential interference contrast (DIC) are much simpler, primarily because only a single birefringent Nomarski or Wollaston prism is required, and the objective serves as both the condenser and image-forming optical system.

My understanding that this Zeiss microscope is not suitable to "view living cells.. like for example water from a pond" as the topic starter asked. Your wrote "Add transmitted light stage, DIC condenser with two arrows and a light source and you are all set", but I don't think it's a cheap or easy task. Plus, I don't think reflected light objectives will work good with slides and coverslips.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Reflected ... Sw9IpXxRN-

Epiplan objectives (reflected light) will work just fine with transmitted light applications, including use of coverslips 0.17mm or less. It will work the other way around too. You can use regular transmitted light objectives for incident light work. It happens all the time when you use epiflourescent method. As far as using reflected light for observing cells, unless you are utilizing epiflorescence, it will not work. You do need trasnitted illumination, so this is why I mentioned light source and condenser. Basically, you can buy a very nice research grade scope with endless expantion capabilities for under a $1000. This is why I alsways adcocate that new misroscopists do quite a bit of reading, and instead of spending $500-600 on new chinese scope buy a $100 toy and then use it to learn the principles so that they know exactly what they are missing, and then move to "real" scope from the "big 4" or AO.

[EnPassant]

Well in the words of my local microscope service guy.. current crop of Chinese scopes can almost be considered throw away. If they break..they can't be serviced as parts are not sold...older big 5 scopes have been around for decades and still perform better than most of the "new" scopes sold on E-bay etc.

But being inexperienced probably safer to purchase new then when and if he gets into the hobby donate it ( cant sell it wont have any re-sale value) and buy an older scope.

You know how they say the truth is somewhere in the middle? It is.

For one thing, these Chinese companies have multiple vendors so it really depends on what model scope you are buying due to varying levels of quality. Some models will be poor quality, others excellent quality, depending on that supplier. I find it to be highly misleading to label everything "throw away", especially since some of the scopes are the EXACT same version of a Zeiss, Olympus, Nikon, etc. The Chinese companies simply ripped off the design and are reselling for cheaper.

I'd also like to remind people new here to also realize a microscope hobbyist forum is in some ways similar to an automotive forum, where some users will swear by that vintage car, without consideration of other factors, most obviously COST. Let's call Amscope the Chevy or KIA of scopes. Most of the lower end stuff is crap but Chevy also has 3 of the longest lasting cars on the market. Once those expensive Zeiss or Olympus scopes break, it's going to cost- just like a broken BMW or Mercedes would. "If they break..they can't be serviced as parts are not sold" is simply not true. That company you bought that cheap Chinese microscope from will probably be 10x as helpful retrieving that broken part you have and for free if its under their 5 yr warranty. I'd suggest that if money is a consideration, try one out and if it doesn't work out, return it. I could offer a few suggestions which models to avoid though.

Stop pretending these "Top 4" don't get any of their parts from China either.

[billbillt]

Well in the words of my local microscope service guy.. current crop of Chinese scopes can almost be considered throw away. If they break..they can't be serviced as parts are not sold...older big 5 scopes have been around for decades and still perform better than most of the "new" scopes sold on E-bay etc.

But being inexperienced probably safer to purchase new then when and if he gets into the hobby donate it ( cant sell it wont have any re-sale value) and buy an older scope.

You know how they say the truth is somewhere in the middle? It is.

For one thing, these Chinese companies have multiple vendors so it really depends on what model scope you are buying due to varying levels of quality. Some models will be poor quality, others excellent quality, depending on that supplier. I find it to be highly misleading to label everything "throw away", especially since some of the scopes are the EXACT same version of a Zeiss, Olympus, Nikon, etc. The Chinese companies simply ripped off the design and are reselling for cheaper.

I'd also like to remind people new here to also realize a microscope hobbyist forum is in some ways similar to an automotive forum, where some users will swear by that vintage car, without consideration of other factors, most obviously COST. Let's call Amscope the Chevy or KIA of scopes. Most of the lower end stuff is crap but Chevy also has 3 of the longest lasting cars on the market. Once those expensive Zeiss or Olympus scopes break, it's going to cost- just like a broken BMW or Mercedes would. "If they break..they can't be serviced as parts are not sold" is simply not true. That company you bought that cheap Chinese microscope from will probably be 10x as helpful retrieving that broken part you have and for free if its under their 5 yr warranty. I'd suggest that if money is a consideration, try one out and if it doesn't work out, return it. I could offer a few suggestions which models to avoid though.

Stop pretending these "Top 4" don't get any of their parts from China either.

Hi,
I found this article that proves your point.. I have posted it before, and it brings screams from the "big four only" crowd.. Most will not believe it as true!..

https://microscopetalk.wordpress.com/mi ... -in-china/

BillT

[CaptainKirk]

Excellent post Bill. I highly recommend the Zeiss Primostar, btw, on that link. It was the best detail I've seen looking through a scope. I'll have to look through a T720 again to compare but it was pretty amazing. I'd definitely cough up an extra $400-500 for one of those.

[apochronaut]

There is no doubt that the stencil brand microscopes have a unique pedigree and with such high levels of de-centering sometimes approaching 1/10 mm, they can pack a punch when it comes to value for the dollar. They have managed to lower the contrast and make the whole package almost self destructable too, which is a great feature if you ever grow tired of the hobby.1 800 GARBAGE puts them at the top of their list for ease of removal.
It's too bad the sales brochures don't have more room. They should include these features but with all the other fantastic features necessary to promote, such as coarse AND fine focus, an ABBE condenser, guaranteed empty magnification with those terrific 20x eye pieces and real variable intensity illumination to name a few but I guess they don't have room. Those in the marketing business, do have to make choices.

Funny thing is, the so-called big four aren't too forthcoming about the origins of THEIR disposibles. You would think they would trumpet their greatness with such fanfare but alas, no. Also, since they have had such a hands on development of them( supposedly), it seems very odd that when it comes to the Primostar especially, that it has no family resemblance to other Zeiss microscopes. Hmm, strange that the Chinese would rip off the design of a Zeiss microscope that doesn't seem much like a Zeiss microscope. You would think that they would be smart enough to pick the genuine article, the real McCoy. Boy, I'll bet the poor guy that made that decision is enjoying his time in Qincheng Prison...... You stole the design of ow own microscope?