what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

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billben74
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what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#1 Post by billben74 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:29 pm

Hello all,
So I am talking transmitted here.

I don't actually have the cash to do this but...
From what I have worked out Carl Zeiss aus Jena or PZO seem to be the cheapest possibilities... although I'm in europe so pay less attention to american optical etc. as the trade in this, this side of the pond is minimal.
I have also heard some positive comments about both brand's DIC quality/general quality...but

Zweiss Jena has lubricants that set.
Do these brands have issues with delamination?

And I don't that much so perhaps LOMO or maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely.

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Crater Eddie
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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#2 Post by Crater Eddie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:37 pm

I don't recall ever having seen any LOMO DIC gear for sale or mentioned as being used. The LOMO PLC site (defunct but still up) does mention DIC in connection with their inverted scope, but that's the only mention of it I see in a quick search.
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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#3 Post by 75RR » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:50 pm

Have you seen this topic ? - don't know if it is still available but Seb28 would still be a good source of info on PZO

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2867
Zeiss Jena has lubricants that set.
Do these brands have issues with delamination?
Have not heard of delamination on Zeiss Jena, as for the lubricants setting - not an insurmountable problem by all accounts.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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einman
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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#4 Post by einman » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:35 pm

American Optical would be out anyway as they only produced a few dozen DIC systems and they rarely if ever pop up for sale. I have only seen one for sale in 10 years and I bought it. Call any microscope retailer that services scopes, Like Bolden, Martin or Miller and they will say the same..never seen them.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#5 Post by zzffnn » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:49 pm

Delamination in the Zeiss Jena apo line is not rare. Same with their LOMO copies. Examples are their 20x NA 0.65 or 40x NA 0.95. But one should be able to find good ones.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#6 Post by einman » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:18 am

zzffnn wrote:Delamination in the Zeiss Jena apo line is not rare. Same with their LOMO copies. Examples are their 20x NA 0.65 or 40x NA 0.95. But one should be able to find good ones.
I agree. There are good copies but delamination with Zeiss objectives is common.

Reichert (Formerly AO) made an excellent DIC system but way out of most hobbyists price range and very rare. AS you mention Zeiss or PZO may be your best option, although based on some pics I have seen on this forum oblique illumination can result in a good alternative to DIC if you are looking for 3-D type images.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#7 Post by KurtM » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:46 am

Yeah, do a search on Universal Gradient Filter, and Van Egmond filter, on this and the PMN forum.

Those guys were doing amazing things, getting very close to DIC in appearance. But then they just kinda stopped...?
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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#8 Post by zzffnn » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:28 am

KurtM wrote: Those guys were doing amazing things, getting very close to DIC in appearance. But then they just kinda stopped...?
Most of them went and got DIC in the end. Though I don't think it was necessary or they had to.

DIC does not capture the ultimate resolution as well as highly-corrected high NA oblique and may be missing some depth information, when you open up condenser all the way and don't do deep stack. However, DIC iamges are usually pleasing and clean photographically.

Shadowing effects of oblique give its strength in depth and resolution, but also makes images more messy and background not quite as even.

Do I want DIC?
Probably not for $3000. Maybe yes, for $1500.

Is my life incomplete without DIC?
Definitely no.

Am I happy with good oblique?
Pretty much.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#9 Post by Oktagon » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:16 am

You can assemble excellent Zeiss DIC system for TL for under $1000 if you know what you are doing, patient, and are dealing with honest sellers who will not stick you with delaminates optics.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#10 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:04 pm

PZO did not refer to their system as D.I.C., rather P.I.M. ; polarizing interference microscope. Baker also had an interference microscope in the 50s and as well AO. The PZO system was rather complete and there were two types of condensers. One is a slit diaphragm and the other has individual compensators in a rotating ring. The Interference head is used for both and contains 3 prisms that have vertical motion. The system was primarily designed for analytical and measurement work in many fields of materials science and has 4 distinct operational modes, only one of which, utilizing the compensator condenser is closely associated with what is called D.I.C.
Often the slit condenser is sold as a D.I.C. condenser but this is not the same.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#11 Post by hkv » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:41 am

Carl Zeiss Jena is a cost effective option. Judging from my setup, the quality seems OK. Prices are much lower than for other top brands. I have Zeiss Jena infinity APOs and have not experienced any delamination.

The DIC components are very similar to my Olympus. A DIC condenser with a turret holding all the DIC prisms. Then the DIC-slider that goes above the objectives. Then you need two polarizers (which are in the same wooden box in the picture).

Here are some pictures:

Image

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by hkv on Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#12 Post by billben74 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:25 pm

Many thanks to everyone.
I'm sure I'm not the only forum member who finds this kind of info sharing really helpful.
As I mentioned for me its about a long term mission.
I had thought Carl Zeiss jena or possibly pzo sounded best value and that appears to be the case, in general.

The pzo system does sound very interesting with what sounds like unique capabilities and the ability to use various objectives for its dic/polarisation interfence techniques.

Any other contributions are obviously welcome...

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#13 Post by rmb » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:57 pm

There is a method called vac2 -variable amplitude contrast i think which gives almost good as dic effects.
It involves 2 pieces of polarising film forming a stop in the filter holder of the condenser and another you rotate in the light well. It was described in detail in the balsam post. As long as the stop in the holder is in the same plane of focus as the slide the rotating piece gives dic and dark field. A bit of messing to get the stop matched to the objective is needed but it is all easy diy. Why it hasn't been developed commercially escapes me. I adapted a knackered AO phase condenser by putting the stops where the phase rings went

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#14 Post by MicroBob » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:08 am

Hi rmb,

this is very interesting, I have never heard of it. Could you describe the system in more detail, perhaps with a couple of pictures?

Bob

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#15 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:30 pm

About delamination in Zeiss objective: Delamination might have occurred due to cleaning with acetone or xylene - although the use of xylene had been recommended by experts...
In addition, as already suggested by other authors, delamination might have happened because of heat from halogen lamps or, worse, high wattage mercury or xenon lamps. But these high wattage lamps are typically used for epi-fluorescence work, not for transmitted light microscopy.

There are about 15 Zeiss objectives in my drawer, from the 2.5x to the 100x, all are more than 40 years old, and none of them is delaminated... A reason to be more optimistic about old Zeiss optics.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#16 Post by rmb » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:52 pm

Dear Bob
See
http://www.microbehunter.com/forum/spec ... hod-vac-2/

From microgreen in 2013. If you have an old phase condenser to fit the stops into you can be sure they are in the right focal plane. But sometimes racking the condenser up a bit works. You will be amazed. Dont use self adhesive film and try and do your assembly over a light so you get the extinction

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#17 Post by IanW » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:18 pm

Great thread - thanks

Here are some VAC2 photos

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/postalmicsoc ... trast.html
Zeiss Jena NF, Zeiss Standard 18 and WL

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#18 Post by MicroBob » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:18 pm

from what I can see the VAC disc combined with an adjustable second polariser allows for a gradual change between dark ground or circular oblique lighting and quarter segment oblique lighting. It might be an idea to put a small center into this disc that adds a pleasant background color like blue.
Probably a nice variable diy contrast technique, especially with a phase condensor. But we should return to the topic of the thread: DIC.

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#19 Post by rmb » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:52 pm

I see mention of American optical DIC microscopes. the H21 model
Does anyone have or have sight of a user manual?

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Re: what is the cheapest way to get a quality dic system?

#20 Post by apochronaut » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:36 pm

There weren't many made. AO also made a Diastar 420 DIC, The basic carousel prism housing is the same, with just a dovetail difference. I have only seen one. There is a link to the AO DIC and DICV catalogue here for the AO 21 https://user.xmission.com/~psneeley/Per ... oscope.htm but it doesn't really tell you much.

If you are looking for technical details regarding DIC; I have the original 95 page PZO Biolar Polarizing Interference Contrast manual, sent to me in the late 80's from the factory. It is absurdly comprehensive, way more than I can comprehend at this point. I am some way into using a PZO system below and an incident Balplan system above to get DIC on a Balplan, so the book has been invaluable. I could look for any information you might need, or want?

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