keep 50x, 100x or both?

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cpsTN
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keep 50x, 100x or both?

#1 Post by cpsTN » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:53 am

I am trying to determine which objectives I want to use with my AO110. My current objectives, with catalog numbers, are in my signature. As you can see, the 50x and 100x are both oil objectives and the 50x also has an iris. I don't see that I would need 1000x for anything so I was thinking of having the 50x (500 power) objective as my highest one. I would like the opinion of the other users. Would you keep both the 50x and 100x, then work on the lower powers or would you have 50x as the highest power THEN work your way down? I currently have a 4-port turret which I am considering replacing a 5-port, so that's also in the mix too. What think thee?
Charles Sands
Murfreesboro, TN 37129

MICROSCOPES:
AO 110
...objectives, infinity:
10x plan #1021
45x achro #1116
50x plan, oil iris #1016
100x plan, oil #1024

Amscope SE305, Stereo
...objectives: 1x, 3x
...EPs: 5x, 10x, 15x

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mrsonchus
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#2 Post by mrsonchus » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:09 am

Hi, I suppose this depends very much upon what you routinely use your 'scope to observe.
The x100 would I think be used for permanently-mounted slides of sectioned tissue such as the Botanical slides I use. For this it's a superb choice - I used mine yesterday to observe the sieve-plate pores of a phloem-vessel and the difference between the x100 and the dry x60 was remarkable. (using the x100 oil - with un-oiled condenser - gave a much better resolution of pore-shape and wall texture detail when compared with the x60)

That said my first move would definitely be to acquire the 5-objective nosepiece - very useful indeed.

My 5 objectives are x4 (great of course for scanning), x20, x40, x60 and the very nice x100 HI...
When I bought the 'scope I chose the x60 instead of the usual x10 as a lot of my work is at the higher-end of magnification.

Many will have their own musings here - look forward to seeing what the chaps think too. :)
John B

cpsTN
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#3 Post by cpsTN » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:57 am

I don't have a viable option for power between the 50x and 100x and, I'm leary of giving either one them up. I might just go with 4x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x. Not sure.
Charles Sands
Murfreesboro, TN 37129

MICROSCOPES:
AO 110
...objectives, infinity:
10x plan #1021
45x achro #1116
50x plan, oil iris #1016
100x plan, oil #1024

Amscope SE305, Stereo
...objectives: 1x, 3x
...EPs: 5x, 10x, 15x

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75RR
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#4 Post by 75RR » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:40 pm

If you continue to use the 4 objective nosepiece I would go with 4x, 10x, 20x and 45x and keep the oil objectives i.e. 50x and the 100x in a drawer - to be used as and when needed.
If you go for a 5 objective nosepiece you could add a 2.5x, useful for large samples such as mosquito larva etc...

If you don't have objective containers, a must for storage, they can be obtained on ebay
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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Crater Eddie
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#5 Post by Crater Eddie » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:25 pm

mrsonchus wrote:Hi, I suppose this depends very much upon what you routinely use your 'scope to observe.
Exactly this!
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Yann E.
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#6 Post by Yann E. » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:43 pm

Charles,
I gathered from your posts that you, just like me, haven't got that much experience with high-magnification (over 400x) transmitted-light microscopy (feel free to correct me if my assumption is wrong).
In your situation but with a few more objectives that came with various systems my father & I had acquired over time, objectives we initially had no real use for, I have kept everything. Now that I have (more or less) mastered the domains of microscopy I needed professionally, I'm beginning to experiment with those 50x to 100x dry, water & oil objectives I had no use for, and not letting any of them go.
In a few months I might be able to know what really works for me and sell a few, but right now I'm just keeping every 50x to 100x I have until my level of expertise allows me to make an educated decision (should said level ever be high enough... :mrgreen: ).

In your shoes I would keep both...
You can only die once, but you'll enjoy it for a lifetime...

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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#7 Post by apochronaut » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:30 pm

cpsTN wrote:I don't have a viable option for power between the 50x and 100x and, I'm leary of giving either one them up. I might just go with 4x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x. Not sure.
Look at it this way. If your 100x objective was not oil immersion, would you be more likely to use it? If it was a simple turn the nosepiece and focus?...no oil, to carefully lower the objective into, no muss, no fuss, no cleanup?

Bear in mind that the 1016 50x objective is an oil immersion objective. It had two functions in the AO system. Fluorescence and DF, where it's oil immersion requirement was valuable as a complement to the 100x oil immersion objective; otherwise it needn't be oil. Many times ,after using an oil immersion 100x objective ,it is necessary to back out to a broader field of view, a very annoying task, if your lower power is a dry objective.

My guess is, if you sustain the annoyance of dealing with a 50x oil objective, you will very quickly jump to the 100x oil, as well.

Alternately, if you end up being routinely adverse to using oil immersion, then you could get rid of them both and acquire a cat.# 1026 50x .85 oil immersion achromat. It has the unique capability of producing a very fine image as an oil immersion objective( as good as the 1016), albeit, not as plan but also it can be used to give a very good image dry, better in fact than your 45x .66 achromat.

Another alternate option, would be to sell your two oil immersion objectives and buy a cat.# 1323 40X .80 planapochromat, which you could then use with 15x eyepieces easily and quite likely with 20X # 157 eyepieces to obtain 800x and scrap oil altogether.

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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#8 Post by cpsTN » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:01 pm

Yann E:

You are correct. I do not have much experience with high power. I don't even go much beyond 270x with my 8" telescope.

Apochronaut:

You are also correct. I WOULD use the 50x and 100x objectives if they were not oil. However, I am thinking only of using the oil as an inconvenience. The views might be worth using them, and using oil can't be all that bad. Since I don't want to limit myself, I have decided to keep both the 50x and 100x, and add some to have the following lineup:

On a five-port turret, I will have these Plans:
... 4x (#1017)
... 10x (#1021 or #1019) - currently own both
... 20x (#1022)
... 50x oil, iris (#1016) - currently own
... 100x oil (#1024) - currently own

Should the 50x be reserved only for DF? I have had almost no success with DF yet with the 110. Was it you, Apochronaut, who told me that I have the incorrect DF condenser. It has no numbers on it, says only "Americal Optical Made In USA" and everything is VERY dark, no matter how close to the condenser is to the bottom of the slide or how bright the illuminator is. Even using the one mask that came with it, things are too dark. I had great succuess with the Monocular Amscope I had be fore this.
Charles Sands
Murfreesboro, TN 37129

MICROSCOPES:
AO 110
...objectives, infinity:
10x plan #1021
45x achro #1116
50x plan, oil iris #1016
100x plan, oil #1024

Amscope SE305, Stereo
...objectives: 1x, 3x
...EPs: 5x, 10x, 15x

apochronaut
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#9 Post by apochronaut » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:18 pm

Does the DF condenser actually fit? Usually with only some of the condensers, of the type you have , they will just barely slide into the dovetail with the centering screws on the condenser laying on top of the centering screws of the dovetail yoke. If this can be done, then you can use the DF condenser o.k.
Sounds like you don't have the condenser centered, immersed or the illumination up high.

The condenser carrier would have been adjusted for the BF condenser height. You can adjust the DF condenser to the same height by raising or lowering the condenser nose to the correct height to match the upper limit already set for the BF condenser. Perhaps this has already been done by the previous owner of the microscope.

Your illuminator setting must be at maximum. You must oil the condenser to the bottom of the slide to get DF. Once this is accomplished you will see a kind of flash of light in the slide. By observing through the 10x objective, you can use the condenser adjusters of the condenser carrier to center the circle of bright light you should, then see, otherwise you will see nothing. Unfortunately, since you do not yet have a 20x objective, the only one you can use for DF without immersion is the 45x. You will need to immerse the 50x and 100x cannot be used because it does not have an iris.
Without using oil immersion for the objectives, the only ones you can use for DF with that condenser are 20x, 40x,45x,63x. The 10x will give an image but that model of condenser will not fill the field with light. You will only get a central illuminated spot.

cpsTN
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#10 Post by cpsTN » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:36 am

Let's see if I have the reasoning here. Since I have to use immersion with this dark field condenser, I can use an oil immersion objective only if it has an iris. Oil immersion objectives without irises can be used with dry darkfield condensers and brightfield condensers only. Is this correct?
Charles Sands
Murfreesboro, TN 37129

MICROSCOPES:
AO 110
...objectives, infinity:
10x plan #1021
45x achro #1116
50x plan, oil iris #1016
100x plan, oil #1024

Amscope SE305, Stereo
...objectives: 1x, 3x
...EPs: 5x, 10x, 15x

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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#11 Post by rnabholz » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:07 pm

Hi Charles.

I am not going to offer a wide ranging technical discussion of the physics of condensers and objectives as I am not qualified in any way to do so.

I do however have direct experience using a One Ten, two different AO Darkfield Condensers, including the one you have, and both the 100 and 50x Iris objective that you now own. My comments will be limited to this very narrow AO-centric world.

1. The darkfield condenser that you have MUST be oiled to the slide to work AT ALL. No Oil, No Image. Oiling the condenser to the slide has NO bearing on the type of objective you may choose to use. You may use a 40 or 45 dry or a properly oiled 50 iris or 100x with an iris or funnel stop

2. The darkfield condenser you have will only fully illuminate a 40, 45, 50 or 100x objective. Any other lower power objective will only be partially centrally illuminated.

3. Objectives with a NA higher than about 66 (like a 50x or 100x) require one of two things to work properly in Darkfield, either an Iris or a Funnel Stop. Your 50 has an Iris, your 100x Oil does not, and will require a funnel stop.

4. Objectives with Irises will work with both Brightfield and Darkfield condensers.

 

I will also add a couple of thoughts on your particular set up. As Apo has noted, the condenser you have is not the one that was intended for your One Ten. As a result, you may find it difficult to make it work properly, as precise alignment and stability might be troublesome. Since you already own it, it is worth a try, just be aware and watchful on those counts.

Lastly regarding the objectives discussion. I consider the 100x a must have option, even if you keep it in the drawer most of the time. Why limit your instrument's ability by foreclosing on its top level magnification? It is like buying a sports car and refusing to use 5th gear. Interests change. Keep the 100x

 

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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#12 Post by zzffnn » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:42 pm

cpsTN wrote: Since I have to use immersion with this dark field condenser, I can use an oil immersion objective only if it has an iris. Oil immersion objectives without irises can be used with dry darkfield condensers and brightfield condensers only. Is this correct?
Objectives with NA higher than 0.65/0.70 will work better in DF with either an iris or a funnel stop. DF NA 0.65-0.80 may work without, but it depends on how thin/clean your sample / subject is. But above NA 0.8, you really need iris/funnel stop.

Dry darkfield condenser, typically providing a light come of NA 0.7-0.9, will only provide good darkfield for objective NA of 0.7 and less, preferably 0.66/0.65 and less.

In general, a 50x oil objective will be easier to use than a 100x oil objective and be more tolerant of optical issues. But it won't match the resolving power of a 100x oil. I would keep both (I got my 60x oil apo iris NA 0.7-1.0, shortly after getting my 90x oil BF apo NA 1.30, and I am happy with both).

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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#13 Post by apochronaut » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:47 pm

I wrote something out and then went to check on the actual performance of the # 1016 in DF and while I was at it, I used a cat.# 1303 63x .80 semi-planachro and a cat.# 1026 50X .85 oil immersion achro and a cat.# 1323 40x .80 planapo and checked the field of the 214F condenser, with a Cat.# 1019 10x planachro and a cat.# 1022 20x planachro. By the time I was done all that, most of the required response to Charles was filled in but I have a few additions, as well as the results of the tests.

It has been a while, since I have used the # 1016 objective for DF . Most of that kind of microscopy, I have shunted over to the series 400 system. Having the # 1026 .85 objective in the mix was helpful because it gave me a chance to see the cuttoff point, for this condenser, which is .85. At full aperture the .85 objective is just beginning to show a little brightness creeping in from the perimeter, giving a very tiny amount of browning to the image. A small amount of closing down, probably just below .80 gives a pretty dark background with a very slight loss of resolution. The 50x planachro starts a little darker at it's full .80, and with the exception of benefiting a small amount from flare reduction, with stopping down, the iris really isn't that necessary. The 63x .80 is perfectly suited and adequate for DF as well and the 40X .80 planapo blows them all away, with a dark background, almost zero chroma, no flare and a surprising level of resolution. There is .80 and then there is .80.
\
The purpose of the iris diaphragm in that 50x oil planachro is primarily for stopping down in use for fluorescence, not DF. In fact, the subsequent release of that objective, the D.I.N. 50x oil Neoplan made for the series 400 did not have an iris and it is fully useful for DF. The objective was superceded for fluorescence by a planfluorite, so the iris was omitted. The main advantage of those types of objectives for DF ,is not because they have an iris, it is because one can go back to a medium power oil immersion objective, after having used a high power objective. Bausch & Lomb did the same thing, for DF, offering a 50X .80 but in their case a far superior objective; a planfluorite but without an iris. It is a complete pain and sometimes impossible to re view a motile or delicate sample with a medium power dry objective , after using an oil immersion high power objective.



The condenser in question( if I am right in assessing it) was originally designed for the series 10/20. When the 20x objective is used on the model 10 or 20, the condenser just barely fills the field, because the # 176 eyepieces are 19mm. When fitted to a series 100, as has been done here, with # 180 eyepieces the extra 1mm of field they provide, causes a slight falloff of light at the edge but generally speaking that condenser is adequate to fill the field for a 20 X image, in it's original application but not quite in use on a 100 stand, although it will be close.

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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#14 Post by cpsTN » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:17 pm

OK. So, I'm keeping the 50x and 100x. The fact that the 50x is there to "temper" the high power of the 100x helps a lot. Before I got the 110, I was used to viewing at powers of 300x or less because the quality of the scope was limiting. With the 110, viewing at even 450x is no longer a hassel. So you can imagine my lask of 500x and 1000x oil viewing experience. Can't imagine anything that would need 1000x though. By way way, using fifth gear in a car is not the same, unless you had to stop and add oil before going from fourth to fifth.
Charles Sands
Murfreesboro, TN 37129

MICROSCOPES:
AO 110
...objectives, infinity:
10x plan #1021
45x achro #1116
50x plan, oil iris #1016
100x plan, oil #1024

Amscope SE305, Stereo
...objectives: 1x, 3x
...EPs: 5x, 10x, 15x

apochronaut
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Re: keep 50x, 100x or both?

#15 Post by apochronaut » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:04 pm

That's probably a good idea. Having the 50x oil, also makes using the 100x easier.Once you have queued something up with the 50x, you will find it easier to very carefully rotate the nosepiece out of the 50x and into the 100x. With parcentered and parfocal objectives like that, targeted detail will be right there. You won't use it with every sample but you will find yourself wanting a closer look, more often than you think.

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