How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

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Hobbyst46
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How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#1 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:44 pm

I hope this is not a silly question, but I am looking for an easy reliable way to mark a Region Of Interest on a permanent slide.
Right now the ROI is a specific small diatom in a strew slide.

Potential remedies:

(1) I could write down and document the appropriate A and Y stage coordinates, using the verniers. However, on the Zeiss GFL, the X scale marks (parallel to the slide length) point to the scope's arm, so when viewing normally, the X scale is "upside down". The Y scale is even worse: it is radially engraved on the scroll wheel (it is the old type stage, the wheels are coplanar with the stage), in black and red marks and is confusing and cumbersome to use.

So, perhaps find a self-adhesive flexible scale ("graduated scale sticker") with vernier and attach it to the edges of the scale, instead of the original metal scales? I tried but failed to locate such stickers.

(2) Another idea could be to mark the ROI as I see it for the first time with the 10X objective, using a fine permanent marker and a narrowed illumination beam. I doubt how accurate would it it come out, considering the shallow space between the front lens and the coverslip. Besides, immersion oil might dissolve the ink and remove the mark.

(3) Buy a more modern stage, with "ergonomic" movement controls, vertically mounted under the stage ? would the scales be more readable ? are stages interchangeable between the various versions of the Zeiss Standard ? Because the stage of my scope is attached to the holder by means of four screws, not on a dovetail slider as in more recent models. It is not an inexpensive solution, but a I have another, spare GFL stand, that has no stage, so...

Thanks in advance for ideas.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

MichaelG.
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#2 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:56 pm

There exists a brilliant aternative to actually marking the slide:
https://www.pyseroptics.com/product/s7- ... der-slide/

Unfortunately they are 'not inexpensive' ... but I think the idea could be developed [downwards] to do what you need.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

Hobbyst46
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#3 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:07 pm

Thanks a lot MichaelG. Worth me trying.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

PeteM
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#4 Post by PeteM » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:29 pm

Another option would be a marker objective. The Nikon version shows up fairly frequently, used, for maybe $50 or so. It's basically a marking pen enclosed in an RMS thread mount. Assuming your objectives are reasonably parcentered, you just move to the marker, give it a spin, and end up with a small ring marked on the cover slip.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... itleDesc=0

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mrsonchus
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#5 Post by mrsonchus » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:42 pm

Hi, I sometimes note X,Y coordinates (mm) and the point of origin for the very finest details on my slides. The graduations of my 'scope's scales are easily accurate enough to enable location of such a spot I find. I usually use the corner of the slide or coverslip as the point of origin for this.

John B.
John B

Hobbyst46
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#6 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:52 pm

PeteM wrote:Another option would be a marker objective. The Nikon version shows up fairly frequently, used, for maybe $50 or so. It's basically a marking pen enclosed in an RMS thread mount. Assuming your objectives are reasonably parcentered, you just move to the marker, give it a spin, and end up with a small ring marked on the cover slip.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... itleDesc=0
Thanks Pete. My objectives are quite parcentered.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

Hobbyst46
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#7 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:55 pm

mrsonchus wrote:Hi, I sometimes note X,Y coordinates (mm) and the point of origin for the very finest details on my slides. The graduations of my 'scope's scales are easily accurate enough to enable location of such a spot I find. I usually use the corner of the slide or coverslip as the point of origin for this.

John B.
There lies the problem, that the graduations on the old Zeiss GFL are upside down (X scale) or radial and cumbersome and hard to use (Y scale), so I am looking for alternative scales or other solution.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

MichaelBrock
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#8 Post by MichaelBrock » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:29 pm

I have been pondering the same thing. I have photographed some diatoms on slides and would love to go back and do it again as my skills improve (and with different illuminations). I can typically find the diatom again with some hunting but I'm thinking of getting an AO graduated stage so that I can at least get close.

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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#9 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:04 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
PeteM wrote:Another option would be a marker objective. The Nikon version shows up fairly frequently, used, for maybe $50 or so. It's basically a marking pen enclosed in an RMS thread mount. Assuming your objectives are reasonably parcentered, you just move to the marker, give it a spin, and end up with a small ring marked on the cover slip.
Thanks Pete. My objectives are quite parcentered.
Here is Nikon's brief description of the Object Marker: http://tecnicaenlaboratorios.com/Nikon/ ... lsheet.pdf

And a slightly different description of its operation here:
http://www.seoenterprises.com/shop/prod ... ctid=16217

Amazon lists a suitable ink:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nikon-Microsco ... B000THNH0O

MichaelG.
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MicroBob
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#10 Post by MicroBob » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:10 am

The GFL is from the late 1940s, so only about 10 years after the Zeiss (Jena) Lumipan arrived on the market with built in lighting. Until then you used you microscopes with the column towards your belly with the light coming from the window or lamp on the desk. The then very modern Zeiss LG was still made like this in 1934. This may explain the orientation of the scales on your table. Right now I can't say whether newer tables would fit the GFL.

For diatom arranging I have used circles made with a permanent felt pen and a circle template for technical drawing. These felt pens are easy to remove with alcohol but withstand white spirit / lighter fluid very well. These 2-3mm circles are easy to find and the round border makes it easy to find the way to the middle. After a while they have to be renewed but this takes just seconds to do.

There have been object markers with diamond tips but I wouldn't dare to use this! :shock:
The Nikon marker probably works very nice, but I can imagine that it is not much fun for occasional use because it might get dry after longer pauses of use.

Hobbyst46
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#11 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:54 am

Hello Bob and thanks.
MicroBob wrote:The GFL is from the late 1940s, so only about 10 years after the Zeiss (Jena) Lumipan arrived on the market with built in lighting. Until then you used you microscopes with the column towards your belly with the light coming from the window or lamp on the desk. The then very modern Zeiss LG was still made like this in 1934. This may explain the orientation of the scales on your table. Right now I can't say whether newer tables would fit the GFL.
Now I understand! I thought my microscope was from the late 1950s, now the inverted scale makes sense. Apparently, Zeiss either decided that the stage scale is not so important (unlikely), so it can stay as it was even with the in-base lamp, or one of the previous owners of my microscope assembled it t from a bare stand and an older model stage.
For diatom arranging I have used circles made with a permanent felt pen and a circle template for technical drawing. These felt pens are easy to remove with alcohol but withstand white spirit / lighter fluid very well. These 2-3mm circles are easy to find and the round border makes it easy to find the way to the middle. After a while they have to be renewed but this takes just seconds to do.
A 2mm circle if the size of FOV with my 10X objective. Circles appear to me indeed a plausible solution.
...The Nikon marker probably works very nice, but I can imagine that it is not much fun for occasional use because it might get dry after longer pauses of use.
Agreed, and considering the investment of > $100 (considering H&S costs of $55-60 from North America) I look for less expensive options.

I just found some transparent, self adhesive grid stickers. Each grid is a 20x20mm square, ruled every 1mm. If I stick it on top of either a 60x25mm coverslip, or even an ordinary slide, perhaps it can function like the England Finder Slide shown in the link above, for less than the BP126 price but, alas, without coordinate names (A1, B23 etc).
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

MicroBob
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#12 Post by MicroBob » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:48 pm

Hi Doron,
here is an overview over the history of the Zeiss and Zeiss Winkel Standard: http://www.microscopist.co.uk/wp-conten ... andard.pdf.

My circles are bigger than my field of view but when I move to the curved border, I know from the curve where my arrangement is.
With a stick-on grid I probably would hide my best specimens half the time. 8-) The cleaning of the slide would become really difficult too.
You could improvise a permanent pen holder and use the scales of the table to make a mm-grid. It you cover anything valuable the grid could be removed partially with ethanol.

This England grid is quite an astonishing product with all the fine incriptions, and made for 40 years in the same way!

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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#13 Post by PeteM » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:19 pm

The ink (basically stamp pad ink) in the Nikon object marker lasts a surprisingly long time. I bought a well-used one over a year ago -- and it's still working on the original charge. I have an address stamp with built-in (but rechargeable) stamp pad ink that seems to go years between re-inking with frequent use.

It is a bit fussy, though, to focus an item, index to the object marker, and then gently press it down on the cover slip.

Hobbyst46
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#14 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:09 pm

MicroBob wrote:Hi Doron,
here is an overview over the history of the Zeiss and Zeiss Winkel Standard: http://www.microscopist.co.uk/wp-conten ... andard.pdf.

My circles are bigger than my field of view but when I move to the curved border, I know from the curve where my arrangement is.
With a stick-on grid I probably would hide my best specimens half the time. 8-) The cleaning of the slide would become really difficult too.
You could improvise a permanent pen holder and use the scales of the table to make a mm-grid. It you cover anything valuable the grid could be removed partially with ethanol.

This England grid is quite an astonishing product with all the fine incriptions, and made for 40 years in the same way!
Thanks Bob. So my humble beloved GFL was first made in 1948, and I think that tens of thousands of them were sold.
My idea was not to put the grid stickers on the specimen slide itself, but a "DIY England Finder Slide". I fixed the stickers on top of a blank slide or a 60x24mm coverslip and will try to use them similar to the England Finder - a crude, undeveloped idea.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

MicroBob
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#15 Post by MicroBob » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:56 pm

The beginning of Zeiss West after the second world war was quite difficult and it is not easy to understand the decisions made.
They first made the W-stand, a modern, but expensive microscope, built in the new west German Oberkochen plant. Then they make the Zeiss Winkel GFL and later Junior. This was a milestone in microscope history and easier to produce than the W-stand. It was made in the Winkel plant in Göttingen and had no common part with the W. From the later Zeiss GFL is was different in the calculation of at least some of the objectives. The Zeiss Winkel eyepiece expected the image 5mm down the 160mm tube. These 5mm to the later Zeiss GFL and Standard value of 10mm made a difference for parfocality and the performance of stronger objectives. So they are theoretically not good to mix.
I think some Zeiss Winkel objectives were calculated more towards centre performance too.
Is your GFL a Zeiss or Zeiss Winkel?
From my point of view the GFL and especially the first Junior are among the nicest and most beautiful microscopes - and very efficient in use too.

Hobbyst46
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#16 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:27 pm

My microscope is marked: Carl Zeiss, on the base, head and stage. All my objectives are "Carl Zeiss" as well, or just "Zeiss", except for a 25X45 Ph2 objective, that is marked "Zeiss Winkel". It works OK, I think, but of course only the central part of the FOV is optically flat. So, I do not think that I am mixing optics. Only point is, that the objectives do not all belong to the same "catalogue list". I mean, there are objective numbers 4471226, 5040531, 461941-9903, etc. At least by eye vision they perform OK. Photos are a different issue, but due to other factors.
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photomicro
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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#17 Post by photomicro » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:14 pm

The real advantage of something like the England Finder (sometimes described as Maltwood Finder) is that it will yield the result you want with any of your microscopes, and hence is universal in that respect.

The link given early on is for a new one, but there are second-hand ones to be had much more cheaply.

I believe Needham covers finders, including the Maltwood in his 'Practical use of the Microscope'.

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Re: How do you mark an ROI on a permanent slide?

#18 Post by MicroBob » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:03 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:by eye vision they perform OK
This is the important part.

When you use a Zeiss West eyepiece and lift it by 5mm you will have all intended distances right for your single Zeiss Winkel objective. Do you see a difference - probably not. This medium power objective is probably affected the least.

The different series of Zeiss West objectives from the Zeiss GFL on until the introduction of infinity optics can be freely mixed and all used with the same eyepieces. The weaker objectives have calculated-in chromatic errors so they can be used with the same eyepieces as the stronger ones. This was a very useful invention at the time.

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