On the Used Scope Question

[jawats]

Hello all!

It's a lovely day here, our first snow having fallen last night, and I think it likely that my long-lens astral-photography activities will be hit or miss over the next several...days? Weeks?

At any rate, as I mentioned in my intro, I am looking at used scopes. I tend to do a great deal of research before I buy, so I've been eyeing not only newer, but used, scopes. I've seen recommendations for good used microscopes from:

1. AO / AO Spencer
2. Olympus
3. Leica
4. Reichert
5. Cambridge Instruments
6. Swift
7. B&L
8. Zeiss
9. Meiji


Of course, I am sure there are specific models (I saw the 10/20/110/120 on another post as AO / Reichert / Leica / CI possibilities) that are worthwhile, so I would love to hear your suggestions of models for these makes, as well as any other makes.

Relative to new makers, I've seen thoughts on Omax, Amscopes, Nikon, Celestron, and newer versions of some of the used brands which are still made. I'm thinking of a compound scope, perhaps monocular or trinocular, as I want to have a go at microphotography using an adapter with my Pentax K-3.

So, what models in used would you recommend (given my basic handyman abilities and caveats regarding source, etc) and are there other brands and models in new and used I should consider? Thank you!

[PeteM]

I've developed a guide to microscope brands and specific recommended models (including things to check) that includes all those brands and a few dozen more. If you'd like a PDF copy, let me know an email address.

It's a rough draft, aimed at helping parents and mentors find a good used scope. In return, I'd appreciate comments back on anything that's confusing, missing, not clear, etc.

[jawats]

I've developed a guide to microscope brands and specific recommended models (including things to check) that includes all those brands and a few dozen more. If you'd like a PDF copy, let me know an email address.

It's a rough draft, aimed at helping parents and mentors find a good used scope. In return, I'd appreciate comments back on anything that's confusing, missing, not clear, etc.

Pete - that's fantastic! I'll DM you.

[PeteM]

It's on its way . . .

[zzffnn]

Welcome to the forum, Jonathan.

To help you better, please kindly tell us what are your subjects of interest and what is your budget?

It makes a difference, your budget is $600 vs $3000. Quite some DIY is necessary, with a budget of $600.

But if you want to spend $3000 and know you will stay in the hobby for a while, I would suggest you find a semi-pro dealer and buy a DIC scope. I don't recommend this approach often, but the last time I did that, the guy eventually bought a DIC scope from a dealer.

Pete,

I would like a copy of your manuscript as well and will provide some suggestions.

I don't write as well as a lawyer, but I am not far from one

[PeteM]

Fan, Can you PM me an email where I should send it? Would very much appreciate any thoughts you have to make it better -- I know you have a lot of experience to contribute.

[jawats]

Welcome to the forum, Jonathan.

To help you better, please kindly tell us what are your subjects of interest and what is your budget?

It makes a difference, your budget is $600 vs $3000. Quite some DIY is necessary, with a budget of $600.

But if you want to spend $3000 and know you will stay in the hobby for a while, I would suggest you find a semi-pro dealer and buy a DIC scope. I don't recommend this approach often, but the last time I did that, the guy eventually bought a DIC scope from a dealer.

Pete,

I would like a copy of your manuscript as well and will provide some suggestions.

I don't write as well as a lawyer, but I am not far from one

I will likely stay in the hobby for awhile, but I cannot afford $3,000 and not sure when I will be able to. With that said, my likely budget is under $400 for now. I'd like to be able to look at basic plant and animal cells - make out cells walls, bodies, etc.

[zzffnn]

With $400 for 3 kids and photography, I would suggest a teaching microscope, with scope heads separated on at least two stands, like this:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -head-1049

With a teaching scope, you can put on 1 monocular head and one binocular head (instead of two or more bino heads) for photography. That way, you don't need a trinocular head.

Try to buy all heavy parts included in one complete package, as that will save you quite a bit on shipping.

If you do not want to (spend more to) upgrade for a few years, then AO will be your best bet.

Look into phase contrast microscopy photos and videos and see if you want that feature. If yes, favor AO even more. Other phase contrast systems are available, but will usually cost more. Again, try to buy everything in one purchase.

Phase contrast is not easy to DIY. Other illumination techniques, such as oblique and darkfield can be DIY'ed to some extent. So decide on phase contrast (if you want it) first.

Olympus and Nikon also offered teaching scopes, but they may cost about $100-$200 more. Olympus scopes are slightly more DIY friendly in design. They both offer higher chance of some special feature upgrades, such as water immersion objectives and apochromatic objectives. Such options are not easily available from AO.

I started with $500 for 2 kids and photography and went for a Nikon teaching scope. That was mostly luck, but also because I already knew I prefer water immersion apo objectives over phase contrast objectives, if I have to pick only one option. I ended up spending another $1000 or so in total, for upgrades and exchanges, over about 8 years.

Try to search for surplus microscope sales from universities in your city. That may provide you your best deal ever.

One DIY microscope feature to look for is available space under condenser. That is the best place to put your filters, which can make night and day difference in image. More space means more DIY friendly. AO 110 has limited space there, for example. AO 10 and AO 2/4 has good amount of space under condenser. While Nikon Optiphot or Olympus BH2 has a lot of space. For other scope models, please ask around.

[Scarodactyl]

(Not to be pushy, but I have a working AO one ten with a teaching head in the for sale section now that I am really ready to part with, so if you want to dip your toes in I'd cut you a real good deal on it so you can save the rest of the budget for accessories).

[PeteM]

Just to add -- the 110 is a nice starter scope. Having bought from the seller before, I'd be inclined to trust that defects, if any, would be disclosed, the price the OP might negotiate fair, and the scope carefully packed. One nice thing about most of the American Optical scopes is that the focus mechanism includes a bit of built-in protection for objectives being focused into slides. Handy if you have younger kids. In addition, replacement objectives are pretty affordable on the used market should one ever become damaged.

[MicroBob]

Hi Jonathan,
in your introduction you wrote that the microscopy equipment is for you and for your three daughters (stable majority situation ) as well. I think that children want quick results and rarely spend hours to study one thing. They also like simple things that are ready to go in an instant. A fully featured microscope with lots of knobs and optional parts would be much too intimidating for them. My first suggestion is the stereo micrroscope, you more or less need one anyway. Then I would choose a compound microscope with binocular (or trino if in your price range) tube, of the smaller and lighter variety without precious extras that might not survive your kids treatment. A battery powered light would be a big plus as there is no cable to pull the microscope from the table.
A simple used binocular compound microscope can often be bought for around 100$, so it doesn't matter much when there is no 1500$ DIC set available for it. If one of you starts to spend more time on microscopy a better microscope can always added.

Plancton is a nice topic. Here you would need something to conentrate it, like a plancton net or fine sieve.

For kids an eyepiece-holder for the smartphone would be great. This way they can get their images directly into the system the abuse the whole day!
The image quality you get with a better smartphone is very good already.
There is no Pentax DSLR with EFSC as far as I know. So for great images you would need something else.

Bob

[Hobbyst46]

Welcome aboard.
IMHO, it is very important that each of the young ladies has the opportunity to enjoy microscopy right from the beginning. Not all young children come to agreement on "who has and uses the microscope today". Sometimes, the "discriminated against" child will react by hating the microscope, as revenge...

Given the high probability that at any given moment, one of them is preoccupied with some other duty or activity, I would buy two microscopes:
One stereo microscope (if possible, one that has trans-illumination as well), and one compound microscope.

Since these will be starters, my priorities would be (1) decent optics quality (2) ease of use, and (3) like zzffnn mentioned, ample space beneath the condenser for some DIY tricks.

I believe that it is possible, at least in North America, to find such scopes for a total of $400.
Later on, if the girls wish more advanced features, seek a more sophisticated compound microscope.

[mrsonchus]

Hi Jonathan,
in your introduction you wrote ................ deletion for brevity only....

For kids an eyepiece-holder for the smartphone would be great. This way they can get their images directly into the system the abuse the whole day!
The image quality you get with a better smartphone is very good already.
There is no Pentax DSLR with EFSC as far as I know. So for great images you would need something else.

Bob

Hi Jonathan, I can't really add much to this superb advice from Bob - the point made re a stereo 'scope is a very good one I think - very interesting and quick results. Another aspect of the use of a stereo 'scope is the preservation of perspective, in that the 'overall look' of your subject will still be evident to the viewer.
It's very easy for an experienced user of a compound 'scope to become somewhat 'disoriented' when looking at a new specimen for the first time at the higher and of course 2D magnification of the compound 'scope. The lower (3D also) view of a stereo 'scope will enable the specimen to be recognisable and 'scanned' in what is perhaps a more interesting manner upon first examination. Then of course a higher magnification may be used for any areas of the specimen that catch the attention...

As for specimen choice, well, everyone has an area of interest for example if the beginner is particularly interested in say technology and gadgets - why not have a look at a CD or 'phone screen, pcb components etc, for the budding Biologist simply a piece of veg such as Broccoli florets and stem (easily sectioned with a sharp knife for a first look...) may prove interesting, bugs etc - no problem there either to find specimens. All good ways to introduce a beginner to both the hidden facets discoverable with simple equipment and of course the construction, use and capability of the instrument - which may in itself offer a stimulus to a child or beginner who may have an interest in optics or the engineering of the instrument.....

I'd echo Bob's advice verbatim my friend - very good advice.

Let us know how you proceed - always interesting to share the experiences of others in this great pursuit!

John B.

[jawats]

...
There is no Pentax DSLR with EFSC as far as I know. So for great images you would need something else.

Bob

Bob,

Looking over EFSC, it appears that I could use "mirror up" with a timer, which would effectively reduce vibration from shutter activation and from pressing the trigger. A remote release would also work.

[75RR]

Looking over EFSC, it appears that I could use "mirror up" with a timer, which would effectively reduce vibration from shutter activation and from pressing the trigger. A remote release would also work.

A better solution is to isolate the camera from the microscope. I use a tripod.

Charles Krebs' solution is prettier:



http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/index.html

http://www.krebsmicro.com/

[MicroBob]

...
Looking over EFSC, it appears that I could use "mirror up" with a timer, which would effectively reduce vibration from shutter activation and from pressing the trigger. A remote release would also work.

Mirror slap would be a no-go anyway. But most DSLRs offer mirror pre-release or capture from live view with mirror already up. The problem is, that they close the shutter and open it again right before capture begins. This introduces quite some vibration. I don't know your Pentax, but my K-30 didn't have the electronic first shutter curtain feature. Many middle class Canons have it and some other too. The Nikon Ones are completely vibration free. The old Sony NEX 3 and 5 had a horrible shutter shock.

Bob

[apochronaut]

...
Looking over EFSC, it appears that I could use "mirror up" with a timer, which would effectively reduce vibration from shutter activation and from pressing the trigger. A remote release would also work.

Mirror slap would be a no-go anyway. But most DSLRs offer mirror pre-release or capture from live view with mirror already up. The problem is, that they close the shutter and open it again right before capture begins. This introduces quite some vibration. I don't know your Pentax, but my K-30 didn't have the electronic first shutter curtain feature. Many middle class Canons have it and some other too. The Nikon Ones are completely vibration free. The old Sony NEX 3 and 5 had a horrible shutter shock.

Bob

Never used a NEX3 or 5 but you need to underline the words old. The current Sony alpha 5000,6000 and 7000 are completely vibration free. I use one all the time, rigid mounted to a trinocular tube. At less than 300.00 the a5000 is probably the least expensive mirrorless body, for someone to get into decent photomicrography. It has a large articulating screen too, so you can view it from the position of the eyepieces, if you need to.

[MicroBob]

Never used a NEX3 or 5 but you need to underline the words old. The current Sony alpha 5000,6000 and 7000 are completely vibration free.

The NEX 3 and 5 were the first Sony mirrorless models. Small and light with a heavy shutter. I always had the impression the camera was intended to to mechanical work like sinking a nail or cutting a cigar.
In the NEX 5N efsc was already available. My a6000 has efsc but after the shot there is a shutter that snaps close. For stacking a little delay is helpful after each shot. The Nikon Ones don't have a shutter at all. Very impressive to fire a camera and there is no sound apart from the aperture closing down. With some MFT efsc is coming, but not always for all shutter speeds. Some big Nikons have it too.

[apochronaut]

Cost comparisons are always a benefit. 2,000.00 is a lot of money to put into a camera body.

[MicroBob]

I think beyond the very affordable a6000 one has to pay a lot to get a little more performance. My Nikon 1J5 has cost just 265€ new, including standard zoom lens. It is not quite as good as the a6000 but very nice to use as a microscope camera. Unfortunately the whole series was discontinued with the first really good model that came out, the 1J5.

Canon and Nikon are moving away from the DSLR, after Sony has started this development. Sony invests more into full format than in the smaller chip sizes. I think the market will be quite different in 10 years time.