Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

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MikeBradley
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Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#1 Post by MikeBradley » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:17 am

I recently came into possession of this stand and haven't been able properly identify it. I believe it is a "Standard" but which model? On a related note is there an archive of serial numbers for Carl Zeiss instruments?

Thanks
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#2 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:40 am

Hi Mike,
this is a standard WL, an eary black one. Zeiss know their numbers but I don't think you can just say this number - this year.
Zeiss has an archive and they may be willig to answer the question: https://www.zeiss.de/corporate/ueber-ze ... rchiv.html
I haven't contacted them so far.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#3 Post by 75RR » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:30 am

Zeiss Standard WL it is. One of the most beautiful and well machined brass microscopes made. Later versions were in white and mostly aluminum, though still very nice mind you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5czbydoytn53e ... L.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwer5yjkfwz6k ... g.jpg?dl=0

Note: No need to create an account to download from Dropbox.
Just scroll to the bottom of the invitation window and click on 'No thanks, continue to view'
Then press 'download' at top right of screen.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#4 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:13 pm

Hi Glen,
are you sure it is made of brass? My impression was that most cast microscope stands of this era were made from cast iron.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#5 Post by 75RR » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:03 pm

MicroBob wrote:Hi Glen,
are you sure it is made of brass? My impression was that most cast microscope stands of this era were made from cast iron.

Bob
I am afraid I no longer have a Black Junior KF nor a GFL. Certainly the feel, weight and colour were of brass when looking at the unpainted/worn areas.

The same is true of the black condenser holder I had (WL) but curiously not of the black stage holder I still have, which is aluminum - different eras?

All I have left from that time are two stages - both of which are brass.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#6 Post by MikeBradley » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:09 pm

Thanks Bob and 75RR, and yes it is a beautiful instrument, I’m lucky to have picked it up. Thanks for the link to manual too, I looked at the Zeiss archive as suggested but haven't tried digging there yet The microscope has two Phase condensers, one of which has 3 DIC positions. Unfortunately, one of the condensers appears to be missing the top optical element, I was surprised to see that it had been in use in this configuration though. The other condenser has an “apl 1.4” top element in place and it is interchangeable. I don’t have an objective turret yet (coming soon) so I haven’t been able to test the condensers out, but could the condenser
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have functioned properly without the top element?
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#7 Post by 75RR » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:18 pm

The other condenser has an “apl 1.4” top element in place and it is interchangeable. I don’t have an objective turret yet (coming soon) so I haven’t been able to test the condensers out,
but could the condense have functioned properly without the top element?
It is designed to work without the top lens for objectives of 6,3x and below. You will need the top lens for anything above that. If you can contact the seller, do so. He may have the top lens plus some other bits left over.
The microscope has two Phase condensers, one of which has 3 DIC positions.
Pics of the condenser with DIC ports please! Photos of each port would be better yet.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#8 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:00 pm

Hi Michael,
these condensers are both really nice, incredibly well made and optically very good. I can send you a german text I have assembled recently about setting up old Zeiss DIC systems. I also wrote a post where I describe the overhaul of these condensers: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7850

If your DIC condenser has 2 phase ports, one bright field and tree DIC prisms it is probably the very first version "uralt". This is important as it will probably require a different (slightly lower) intermediate tube to take up the DIC analyser. My experience with the DIC "alt" is not 1:1 transferrable to DIC "uralt" and this is a topic with a lot of rumors and mixed up information. If it is possible go get the intermediate tube, the top lenses and the DIC analyser from the source of your microscope this will save you a lot of money and a long search for these rare 50 year old parts.

The condenser itself has an n.a. (numeric aperture :D ) of 0,32 and can be used for objectives with an n.a. of not much more. There were at least top lenses of 0,63 apl and 1,4 achr. apl., may be a 0,9 too. For the DIC condenser these were marked in red writing meaning they are low-tension and suitable for polarized light. For normal expectations the non-pol versions are good enough. These top lenses go for similar amounts as the whole condenser! :shock:

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#9 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm

Hi Glen,
I had a look at the tube port of an old Standard Junior and an old Zeiss-Winkel GFL. Both have a brown anodized looking surface. From the look of the slightly worn edge this could even be aluminium. From the weight it is not really feasible that there is much aluminium in the construction. I will keep this in mind and have a closer look at a later point of time.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#10 Post by 75RR » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:01 pm

The condenser itself has an n.a. (numeric aperture :D ) of 0,32 and can be used for objectives with an n.a. of not much more.
:) :) and good point.

I need to revise my range of usable objectives on the condenser without a top lens from 6,3 to 10x and even up to a 16x Achromat as it has an n.a. of 0.32

A 16x Planachromat at 0.35 n.a. (numerical aperture) could just about scrape in as well.
Hi Glen,
I had a look at the tube port of an old Standard Junior and an old Zeiss-Winkel GFL. Both have a brown anodized looking surface. From the look of the slightly worn edge this could even be aluminium. From the weight it is not really feasible that there is much aluminium in the construction. I will keep this in mind and have a closer look at a later point of time.

Bob
Thanks. I think it may well depend on the year as I have just seen the arm of what looks to be a Black Zeiss Junior on ebay that looks like steel rather than brass.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carl-Zeiss-L ... 3130154943
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#11 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:03 pm

MicroBob wrote:Hi Glen,
I had a look at the tube port of an old Standard Junior and an old Zeiss-Winkel GFL. Both have a brown anodized looking surface. From the look of the slightly worn edge this could even be aluminium. From the weight it is not really feasible that there is much aluminium in the construction. I will keep this in mind and have a closer look at a later point of time.

Bob
Not that it matters much, I think the base of the stand of the GFL is indeed aluminum, most other parts are brass, some screws, knobs and rails are brushed steel.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#12 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:31 pm

That ebay -Junior is a fairly new "Chromleisten-Junior" - it has different guides for the stage, probably roller bearings like the later Standard RA ...
The chromed guides are steel, but to me the base of the arm looks much like aluminium. This would also fit to the anodized look of the tube port.
The Zeiss-Winkel GFLs are said to be heavier than the later GFLs, but I only have one and can't compare.

The next question would be what the Zeiss Jena LG is made of - the predecessor of the GFL in a way.

@Doron: I think your GFL might have similar chromed stage guides - right? We found out that is is built quite different from my very old Zeiss Winkel GFL a while ago.

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#13 Post by MikeBradley » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:48 pm

Dear Bob, the condenser is as you suggested, DIC I, II,III, J, 2 3. The 1.4 element is blue/green, definitely not red. If you could send me your document on these old DIC systems that would be much appreciated. Thanks to 75RR for the link to dis-assembling a condenser.

The items are from an estate, most of which has already been spoken for however there may be an opportunity to look again. I have no idea what the “intermediate tube, the top lenses and the DIC analyser” look like and I haven’t found much documentation on line. If someone could post pictures of this equipment that would help a lot.

Thanks everyone for all the help.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#14 Post by MicroBob » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:27 am

MikeBradley wrote: I have no idea what the “intermediate tube, the top lenses and the DIC analyser” look like and I haven’t found much documentation on line.
Hi Michael,
here is a link to my document: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z5Xre ... VBgcIoydXF
For now it's only in german, but I will make an english version when I get the impression people find it useful.
I wrote it exactly to cope with that no idea, not much documentation problem and included pictures of the necessary parts.
My last name is not Zeiss and I wrote it just based an the information I was able to gather from various sources so It will not be perfect.
I tried to limit the amount of information to what is actually needed to set up this DIC "alt" system, so your system is only partly covered.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#15 Post by 75RR » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:20 am

I have no idea what the “intermediate tube, the top lenses and the DIC analyser” look like and I haven’t found much documentation on line. If someone could post pictures of this equipment that would help a lot.
Images of the intermediate tube (Zwischentubus) and the DIC analyser (Analysatorschieber) appear in the link MicroBob provided above. Note that the intermediate tube fits under the head.

This is the top lens. The text can be in white, blue or red.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#16 Post by MikeBradley » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:45 am

Thanks for the help gents, things are starting to become clearer, but I've a long way to go! I will run Bobs great summary document through Google translate and send it back to Bob for his editing.

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#17 Post by 75RR » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:58 am

Here is a link to the 4 types of DIC available for the Zeiss finite 160 tube microscopes - if you run into any of the bits at the estate sale, grab them!

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1543
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#18 Post by MikeBradley » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:41 am

I now have a very basic question, how do I adjust the iris on the CARL zEISS phase condensers? Both of the condensers move freely between the phase or dic plates, but I can't change the iris on the J setting. On the phase condenser it is stuck fully open and on the phase/dic one it is 80% closed. What am I doing wrong??
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#19 Post by 75RR » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:02 am

Remove the condenser from the microscope and turn it over to be able to observe the iris movement clearly.

Both J (that is a capital letter i for iris in german) and the DIC ports have irises that should open and close smoothly. There are no irises on Phase ports.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#20 Post by MikeBradley » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:40 am

Thanks 75RR, that is what I thought, but the top silver ring and the black knurled ring with the aperture markings did not want move independently on either of the condensers. Armed with your confirmation i applied a lot more finger pressure and they move now, but they're very still very stiff.I expect they'll free up with use.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#21 Post by 75RR » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:02 am

Keep moving them back and forth until they move smoothly.

Note that on the y axis annuli adjuster one has to loosen the knurled ring before moving it.

Remember not to oil iris diaphragms, they become dust magnets if you do.


A reminder of MicroBob's link in case you need to open it.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7850
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#22 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:58 am

For cleaning of the turret phase contrast condenser, the following link, in which I was greatly helped by Mike (photomicro) and Charles might be of interest:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5211&p=47167&hilit=partially#p47167
Note, that that condenser is model 465277, 1 dark field port, 2 phase ports, 1 brightfield port, and 3 empty ports, which are designed to host DIC prisms. This model has just one iris aperture - in the brightfield port (J), in contrast to the Inko model, for example.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#23 Post by MicroBob » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

MicroBob wrote:I also wrote a post where I describe the overhaul of these condensers: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7850
I'm quite sure that this will help you through the repair job. If you can repair a bicycle, you can repair the condenser. From the repair point it is not much difference between phase and DIC condenser of this era.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#24 Post by 75RR » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:20 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:For cleaning of the turret phase contrast condenser, the following link, in which I was greatly helped by Mike (photomicro) and Charles might be of interest:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5211&p=47167&hilit=partially#p47167
Note, that that condenser is model 465277, 1 dark field port, 2 phase ports, 1 brightfield port, and 3 empty ports, which are designed to host DIC prisms. This model has just one iris aperture - in the brightfield port (J), in contrast to the Inko model, for example.
Here is some info on the 465277 condenser model:
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#25 Post by MicroBob » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:13 pm

75RR wrote:Here is some info on the 465277 condenser model:
Do you have information about the top lenses that were available? I have a n.a. 1,4 and 0,63 but there may have been a 0,9 too. This could be useful to find other working DIC combinations.

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#26 Post by 75RR » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:20 pm

This information is from the Zeiss Optical Systems brochure: http://www.science-info.net/docs/zeiss/ ... ystems.pdf

However a closer look at the image shows a 1.4 on the condenser and a 0.9 and a 0.63 next to it.
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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#27 Post by MicroBob » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:39 pm

Hi Glen,
thank you for checking this. The 0,9 top lens is nowhere mentioned in combination with DIC "alt" but it might nontheless work very well.
As far as I know the dic prisms limit the n.a. of the condenser to 0,9 anyway so there may be little actual loss.

I plan to design a 3D-printable box for the percious top lenses and can make it a three- seat version then.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#28 Post by MikeBradley » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:01 am

Well I drew a complete blank, there was no sign of any DIC components other than the condenser. Still I have a good foundation for starting to assemble the remaining pieces and the phase system seems to work well. Thanks for everyone for all the help and advice given over the past few days.

I do now have the objective turret and it carries a Nikon Plan 2/0.05, a Zeiss F10/0.25, a Oly LWD CDPlan 20PL/0.4, a. ULWD CDPlan 40PL, 0.5, both the CDPlans have correction collars. Oculars are Carl Zeiss 12.5 Kpl-W (eyeglass), in a binocular head. There is a spare vertical monocular tube. The previous use of this instrument may have been for examining shallow culture dishes.

My first impressions are that the two LWD objectives are disappointing in contrast and sharpness , a side by side comparison with an LB Olympus SPlan 20x/0.46 objectives taken off my BH2 demonstrates this quite clearly. I’ll spend a bit more time working the correction collars tomorrow.

The unit had come with a Carl Zeiss Phase phase telescope but it is so short that it never reaches focus. A separate, longer phase telescope that I have works fine though. Wasn’t the Phako meant to be used with these systems?

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#29 Post by MicroBob » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:56 am

Hi Michael,
the phase telecope should give you a sharp view of the phase rings. First adjust the focus to the slide and the condenser and field aperture to Köhler condition. If it doesn't focus it might not be a phase telescope at all or lenses are missing or are mixed up inside. These are simply built so you can't do much harm when you take it apart.

I don't have any LWD objectives but generally they have a lower n.a. (numeric aperture, measure of the resolving power) than normal objectives. This can lead to a less crisp image, especially when the combined magnification is higher than 1000 x the n.a.. The 40:1 n.a. 0,5 already reaches this limit: 40 x 12,5 = 500.
For which cover slip thickness are they calculated? When they are made to be use used through a petri dish bottom the won't work well through a 0,17mm cover slip.
When they are from Zeiss you can expect that they have been as good as available when new. In the meantime they may have suffered though.

Bob

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Re: Which model of Carl Zeiss Standard is this?

#30 Post by MicroBob » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:11 am

This is how a typical phase telescope looks: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Hilfsmikroskop- ... 2752640117
In this case a Zeiss Jena, not Zeiss West.

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