Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

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MichaelG.
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Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#1 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:03 pm

This adapter was mentioned on a recent topic:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7835&sid=a7173c21e ... 2af#p69111
... but I thought it better to keep that discussion Olympus orientated.

45 60 29 is an afocal photo adapter which fits the Zeiss 40mm tube by means of the usual compression ring
it has a 63mm lens near the T-mount fitting [M42x0.75mm] at the top of the tube, and is designed for full-frame 35mm

Mine came with a Contax/Yashica adapter 47 60 89 but any manufacturer's T-mount adapter should fit.
... my Chinese micro 4/3 adapter from ebay is an excellent mechanical and cosmetic match.

This discussion [on photomacrography.net] includes a useful photo of the adapter, and some sample images
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?p=99265

The advantage of afocal imaging, of course, is that the manufacturer's eyepiece corrections are utilised
... pretty-much essential with any Zeiss 'finite' microscope.

The reason for this topic is really for us to discuss 'variations on the theme' ... and for that, we need a theme!

MicroBob rightly deduced that 45 60 29 should be capable of producing landscape images, if used as a camera lens
This is true ... but in fact, with my Chinese m4/3 adapter attached, the focus is at about 2.25 Metres, not infinity.
I emphasise 'about' because, used this way, the image is not particularly crisp and I found it difficult to find a definitive focus by bodily moving the tripod!
The image is, I think, being degraded by flare [which does not happen when it is used as intended]

Here [for what they are worth] are two 'brick wall' test shots:
P1250609_s.jpg
Size reduced from 4000x3000 to 1000x750
P1250609_s.jpg (179.5 KiB) Viewed 803 times
P1250610_s.jpg
Size reduced from 4000x3000 to 1000x750
P1250610_s.jpg (208.52 KiB) Viewed 803 times
Ignoring the softness: Note that the performance is reasonably planar, with negligible distortion and vignetting.

My version of 45 60 29 has no magnification marked on it, but others are marked 0.25x

______

For camera formats smaller than full-frame 35mm, it should be possible to construct a similar tube using a proportionately shorter focal-length lens.

Your mission [should you decide to accept it] is to identify lenses of suitable quality, and modest price, for other formats.
... Meanwhile, I will try to get a better baseline image from an indoor target.

MichaelG.
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#2 Post by Scarodactyl » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:35 am

I k ow this isn't Zeiss, but I just ordered a few potentially useful lenses from surplus shed to try over my Leitz, in place of their 0.32x lens. Seems like what is good for one should be good for the other.
I'd note their 0.32x lens is awful as a solo lens (as I found while figuring out infinity focus outdoors), worse than the above picture. It'll image but it's soft and ugly. It is reminiscent of flare but I am not sure that is what it is. Works great over the eyepiece, though, aside from cropping badly on aps-c of course. I got a canon 40mm pancake which produces an apparently excellent image of about optimal size (I've only taken handheld pictures as I'm waiting on RAF for the needed parts), so between these two exemplars I'm hoping I'll be able to tell if the surplus shed lenses hold up.
I definitely seems like it could be a very big money savings for anyone going digital on these old systems if they didn't need either a desirable pancake lens or semi-rare microscope lens.
Last edited by Scarodactyl on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#3 Post by MicroBob » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:16 am

Hi Michael,
thank you for the brick wall test! There was a very interesting thread about this photo adapter in the german mikroskopie-forum.de:
https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index. ... ic=23644.0

The conclusion is that the 63mm lens is not really up to the performance of today's digital sensors. It was designed in a time when documentary photography in b/w it was sufficient.
I know a microscopy professional who regards the Zeiss Photomicroscope in its 3,5 versions as a very competent setup, even by todays standards.
So perhaps this was the intended solution for high performance and colour photography.
The Phomi is sometimes disparaged for it's "overly complicated design with too many lenses". But in fact there is no more glass in the photography light path than with other systems with the same features like optovar. The arm of the phomi is painted with dust collecting grease on the inside and this gasses out a little. So if a Phomi doesn't perform as it should a thorough cleaning could be all that is needed.

Bob

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#4 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:20 am

MicroBob wrote:There was a very interesting thread about this photo adapter in the german mikroskopie-forum.de:
https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index. ... ic=23644.0

The conclusion is that the 63mm lens is not really up to the performance of today's digital sensors. It was designed in a time when documentary photography in b/w it was sufficient.
I know a microscopy professional who regards the Zeiss Photomicroscope in its 3,5 versions as a very competent setup, even by todays standards.
So perhaps this was the intended solution for high performance and colour photography.
Many thanks for that link, Bob
... it looks well-worth the modest effort of translating.

I feel sure that you are right about the 63mm lens lacking the resolution for [high quality] digital work, but I do think the concept is worth pursuing ... if we can find the right lenses.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#5 Post by 75RR » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:23 am

There was a very interesting thread about this photo adapter in the german mikroskopie-forum.de:
https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index. ... ic=23644.0
Very interesting link Thanks!
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#6 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:57 am

MicroBob wrote:The conclusion is that the 63mm lens is not really up to the performance of today's digital sensors. It was designed in a time when documentary photography in b/w it was sufficient.
A quick question, Bob

Is it presumed [or known] that the lens in the 45 60 29 adapter is the same one as in the MC63 ?

I have, so far, only translated one snippet from your linked discussion [using DeepL]
I don't want to comment whether the optics of the Zeiss MC63 surface mount camera are good or bad. But I wanted to know how good or bad an achromat, similar to MC63, is for today's digital photography with sensors from 15 - 25 - 50MP.
So I tried my arithmetic assistant and did some optical-theoretical exercises. First the question, how is the imaging performance in the image corners influenced by the distance between eyepiece and achromat? Assumption : a simple achromat made of common glasses BK7 + F2.
I will study the remainder with great interest.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#7 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:26 am

Michael, do I correctly understand that the "mission" is an afocal alternative to the complete Zeiss adapter, that will have the following features:
1) Installed on top of a visual eyepiece, to preserve the (a) chromatic and spatical corrections of the finite Zeiss microscope,
and (b) parfocality with the viewing eyepieces
2) Include a relay lens (0.25X or other, depending on the sensor size) that will not affect the planarity and chromatic quality delivered by the existing objective+eyepiece
3) Mechanically fit on top of the photo-tube (may I wish it for the 25mm diameter plain phototubes, not only 40mm ones with dovetail)
4) connect directly or via simple adapter to a camera body
5) Inexpensive, somehow, and not rare
6) Hopefully, fit other microscopes that suffer from the same "problems" (finite, optical compensation, rarity, price....)?
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#8 Post by MicroBob » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:00 am

MichaelG. wrote:Is it presumed [or known] that the lens in the 45 60 29 adapter is the same one as in the MC63 ?
I don't know. I have had no intention to use a full format camera and for this reason I have never looked closer at these original Zeiss film camera adapters.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#9 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:15 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:Michael, do I correctly understand that the "mission" is an afocal alternative to the complete Zeiss adapter, that will have the following features:
[ ... ]
Basically ... Yes

Doing the job this way means that a single adapter should be useable with any matched set of optics ... regardless of where the corrections are applied in the system.

Peter Walker, of QUAD, famously said that a perfect audio amplifier would be "a piece of wire, with gain"

I believe that, in photomicrography terms, the afocal adapter could approach that.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#10 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:57 pm

My order came in from surplus shed.
I got one of these https://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/L3221.html , but it is a bit moldy and infinity focus is a bit further inside my canon than is likely to be practical, though I might be able to make something work.
Also some unmounted lenses which will need more work.
This lens showed the most initial promise: https://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/L10305.html
Adapting it to a camera is an exercise for the reader (I put on some sticky labels to get a press fit into an m42 adapter which works.) Infinity focus is a reasonable distance in front of the camera.
The microscope-facing end has a rim that is just slightly larger than 40mm so it can rest semi-securely on the adapter, and honestly could probably be held in place with tape and be just fine. I haven't had time for a proper test with remote triggering and consistent lighting/settings and such, but here is a basic view of what the framing is like:
Cell phone camera to show full FoV:
Image
Leitz 0.32x lens focused to infinity:
Image
Canon 40mm pancake focused to infinity:
Image
Surplus shed 60mm lens focused to infinity (or close):
Image

The surplus shed lens is quoted as being 60mm, but I am not 100% sure about that. It crops more than my Canon 40mm pancake lens but is still fairly reasonable on aps-c, much better than the Leitz lens.
I tried hitting a better target for quality comparisons, but I won't be able to do a better test (remote triggering, more consistent lighting and settings) until tomorrow probably. But (within the confines of this relatively low end Leitz objective) edge performance unfortunately looks poorer on the surplus shed lens.
Canon:
Image
Surplus shed:
Image
Canon:
Image
Surplus shed:
Image
Canon:
Image
Surplus shed:
Image

In conclusion: it's 8 bucks and gives decent framing, quality probably isn't too bad in practice.
A canon 40mm pancake plus appropriate adapters can be had for about 140 all in on any given day, less if you find a deal (note: still waiting on said appropriate adapters from RAFcamera, will report back on that).
Last edited by Scarodactyl on Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#11 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:14 pm

Many thanks for posting your results

I will have a better look in the morning [UK], but at first sight Fred's lens doesn't look very achromatic.
['achromatic or not' should probably be a binary choice, but let's not worry about that]

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#12 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:50 am

Scarodactyl wrote:...
Thanks for the comparison. In my opinion, the Canon 40mm lens performs definitely better. The price difference is large, yes, although shipping expenses might triple the price of the Surplus lens.
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#13 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:20 am

Absolutely. My camera's battery is charging so I'll see if I was having focus problems or something tomorrow, but I don't think the surplus shed one makes much sense if this is the best it can do.
As a side note, it seemed more functional as a standalone lens than the leitz one was. I currently have the leitz lens tied up in an assembly on my mz95 trinoc port that I don't want to disassemble so I probably won't so much more head to head with it for a bit.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#14 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:11 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:... although shipping expenses might triple the price of the Surplus lens.
Just to note that Fred Lamothe has one of the best arrangements for overseas shipping that I have ever seen. I place an order and pay for the goods using PayPal ... Then he checks the postal charges and advises me of the price [usually two options]. When I agree, he sends another PayPal request.
If the shipping cost is unreasonable to me, he will cancel the order and refund my original payment.

Scrupulously fair, I believe.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#15 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 am

Scarodactyl wrote:Absolutely. My camera's battery is charging so I'll see if I was having focus problems or something tomorrow, but I don't think the surplus shed one makes much sense if this is the best it can do.
As a side note, it seemed more functional as a standalone lens than the leitz one was. I currently have the leitz lens tied up in an assembly on my mz95 trinoc port that I don't want to disassemble so I probably won't so much more head to head with it for a bit.
Sorry, I forgot to ask: with which eyepiece (in series with the tested lens) and objective were those images taken ?
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#16 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:22 am

This is an old Leitz Pv 10:1 A=0.25 170/- with a periplan 10x/18 on my ortholux 2 stand. Not an amazing objective. I have a 40x fluotar up on eBay that I might put back on it for further testing, though this is my only graduated slide and it is sort of ideal for 10x.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#17 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:32 am

Scarodactyl wrote:This is an old Leitz Pv 10:1 A=0.25 170/- with a periplan 10x/18 on my ortholux 2 stand. Not an amazing objective. I have a 40x fluotar up on eBay that I might put back on it for further testing, though this is my only graduated slide and it is sort of ideal for 10x.
Thanks. To me this eyepiece-objective combination is relevant and fine for these comparisons.
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#18 Post by Scarodactyl » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:47 pm

I forgot to post avout it, but as you'd guess the surplus shed lens only performed worse with closer inspection, so I didn't feel the need to post more pictures. Surplus shed replaced the 50mm enlarger lens that was moldy, so I will try to experiment with that next.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#19 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:16 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:I forgot to post avout it, but as you'd guess the surplus shed lens only performed worse with closer inspection, so I didn't feel the need to post more pictures. Surplus shed replaced the 50mm enlarger lens that was moldy, so I will try to experiment with that next.
Thanks for the update

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#20 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:54 pm

I feel obliged to suggest using the lens from a Minox 35GT
https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2017/ ... onversion/
... He even uses a wall [nicer than mine] for his test shots !!

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#21 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:08 am

Hi MichaelG,
Some time ago I compared a CZ Jena 4:1 Projektive ocular against my KPL ocular on the same afocal setup (ss in the signature). Would such type of results fit into this post ?
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#22 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:25 am

Thanks, Doron,

Any and all comparisons that will help us better understand the use of afocal technique are, I believe, of interest and relevance here.

So ... Yes please.

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#23 Post by MicroBob » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:53 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:08 am
a CZ Jena 4:1 Projektive
Hi Doron, this was probably meant to project directly on the film. Did you test it this way?
These Zeiss Jena projectives are comparatively plenty on german ebay at least. So it would be nice if they would prove useful.

Bob

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#24 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:42 am

MicroBob wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:53 am
Hi Doron, this was probably meant to project directly on the film. Did you test it this way?
.

That's what I am hoping

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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#25 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:36 am

Well, there was a fairly comprehensive test on 2018, afocal I think, so I purchased one and tried. When back home within a couple of days will post.
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Re: Zeiss afocal photo adapter45 60 29 ... and variations on the theme?

#26 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:39 pm

MicroBob wrote:Hi Doron, this was probably meant to project directly on the film. Did you test it this way?
MichaelG wrote:That's what I am hoping
My setup consists of an afocally mounted EOS-M10 mirrorless Canon with ASP-C sensor and prime 50mm/1.8 EF Canon lens. The lens is connected to the camera via a third party EF-EOSM adapter, since Canon do not market a fixed 50mm (or 40mm, for that matter) prime lens for their EOS-M series AFAIK. The various electronic features of the lens function as they should. Camera focus is set to infinity and the focusing ring is secured with a piece of cellotape. I shoot in M (manual) mode. The camera lens is mounted on top of the narrow (25mm OD) photo tube by means of a shallow 49mm-1.25" telescope adapter. There are no extension rings or other extenders.

The reason for a 50mm, rather than 40mm camera lens is that my photo eyepiece is a regular Zeiss West 8X KPL. So, the multiplication result, 400 is obtained by 8X50 instead of 10X40. My only 40mm camera lens is a zoom, which possibly introduces more variables into the test, so I did not try it.

My 8X KPL is of the low eyepoint type, namely, the eyepoint is about 9mm from the glass surface. There are better Zeiss photo eyepieces for this purpose, as mentioned by 75RR in a past post, but they are rare and expensive.

Some time ago, a comprehensive comparison of eyepiece-objective combinations was posted by cmtalb01:
"Comparing the Zeiss MF Projektiv 4:1 to other eyepieces"
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6291&p=56557&hilit= ... ive#p56557

The comparison was based on a focal setup (as far as I could understand) on a Zeiss Phomi and Sony and Canon cameras. In my opinion, the overall conclusion from that post was that the MFP4:1 performs reasonably well, at least with Zeiss Neofluars. Since the MFP4:1 is not so rare, I purchased one for a modest price. It is a Carl Zeiss Jena product. The eyepoint is high, about 20-25mm. I decided to try it as replacement for the 8X KPL, in afocal setup. Just took out the KPL 8X and inserted the MFP4:1 in place.
The objective was a Zeiss 10X0.30 Neofluar.

Edit and update: A look through the MFP4:1 in the photo tube showed a very clear image, exactly parfocal with the viewing eyepieces in the bino tubes. So, its purpose is viewing/afocal, not projection (thanks 75RR for the tip!).The FOV, however, is significantly narrower than that of the KPL 8X (whose FOV number is 18).

The results are shown below. The only post processing was a resize. I think that even under this afocal setting, the flatness of field and chromatic correction of the MFP4:1 are fairly similar to those of the KPL 8X. The FOV of the MFP4:1 is narrower, but it is still usable.

In addition, I found that direct replacement of the KPL with the MFP4:1 without camera lens (so, direct projection) is possible only by the well known "trick" of raising the eyepiece by about 9 mm above the rim of the phototube, otherwise the image is blurred. Hopefully, will report about it later.
Attachments
Zeiss(Jena) MF-Projektive 4_1 with 10X0.30 Neofluar.JPG
Zeiss(Jena) MF-Projektive 4_1 with 10X0.30 Neofluar.JPG (69.77 KiB) Viewed 295 times
Zeiss(West) KPL 8X with 10X0.30 Neofluar.JPG
Zeiss(West) KPL 8X with 10X0.30 Neofluar.JPG (65.37 KiB) Viewed 295 times
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

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