Advice new or refurbish my Zeiss?

[FungusMan]

I am studying fungi and owe a secondhand old Zeiss Axioscope 1980/1990 model where I often use x40 and x100 (oil) magnification. These objectives now got in bad shape, the illumination lamp died and the replacement is kinda not so powerful and I don't have trinocular option. I have 'dirty' images and not even sure if it is the objectives.

My Zeiss:
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o ... microscopy

I want to buy a new scope (let's say I can afford up to 3,000 Eur) and I fancied the Motic BA310 or BA410 trinocular (maybe this comes a bit over 3,000 ). I want to photograph images using my Canon D750 SLR via the trinocular (of the new scope) and I bought this item: adapter which can be also used in the eyepiece socket instead of one of the eyepieces. The eyepieces of the Zeiss are in good shape. Often I photograph images from my Canon GX5 from the eyepiece resulting in great images (and it is a very fast option too).

After joining this forum and reading a number of posts, I often see the suggestion to update an old big-five-brand microscope instead of going to a new Asian scope, despite their good reviews and specs. The thing is that after using the old scope I relished with the idea of buying a new scope after saving enough.

So what do advice with that budget ?

Some burning questions:
Is the Motic BA410 a great scope overall ?
How would u suggest to upgrade the current Zeiss with that budget?
Can I change the nose head to have a trinocular option, or that is impossible or not economically feasible?

Thank you in advance

[Zuul]

Personally, there is no question what I would do. As long as a trinocular head could be purchased, I would refurb. Your budget easily allows for the purchase of some really fine objectives and there must be a path to upgraded illumination.

[Hobbyst46]

A Zeiss made in 1980-1990 is a relatively modern machine with infinity corrected objectives.

If the stand of your Axioskop is in very good mechanical shape, I would not even think of replacing it with any microscope except a modern one of the big-4 . Like the Olympus BX-51 maybe.
But first, I would consider upgrading the Axioskop.

Burnt halogen lamp - should be replaceable without decline of performance, but even if not, LED retrofits are available IMO;

Damaged objectives - there are plenty of Axio microscopes objectives on eBay; asking prices might seem high, but (IMHO) the market is very limited (to those amateurs who can afford them) so significant discounts are likely;

Trinocular head - again, on eBay Axio trino heads exist, although have to verify that the various sub-models (Axio 20, Axio 50 etc) share the same head;

[MicroBob]

I am studying fungi and owe a secondhand old Zeiss Axioscope 1980/1990 model where I often use x40 and x100 (oil) magnification. These objectives now got in bad shape, the illumination lamp died and the replacement is kinda not so powerful and I don't have trinocular option. I have 'dirty' images and not even sure if it is the objectives.

Hi,
I would suggest to first look closer at these problems before you go on with that decision process:
- What is wrong with the objectives?
- Buy the proper lamp
- Have a look at the used market - these trincular heads might be difficult to find
- Locate and remove the dirt

Only then you have a good base to take a decision.

I think the Motics are at best in the same class as your Axioscope and you won't see an improvement over a well working Axioscope. For fungus work you might be better of with the older Axioscope where you could find and afford real high quality objectives on the used market.

Bob

[Hobbyst46]

The part number of the trinocular head is 452910 or 452912, according toa manual downloaded from the web,
and here is a market example (not related to me in any way):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Axioskop ... SwmcJdzUur

[75RR]

I am studying fungi and owe a secondhand old Zeiss Axioscope 1980/1990 model where I often use x40 and x100 (oil) magnification. These objectives now got in bad shape, the illumination lamp died and the replacement is kinda not so powerful and I don't have trinocular option. I have 'dirty' images and not even sure if it is the objectives.

My Zeiss:
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o ... microscopy

Several photos of your actual microscope and the lamp you are using would probably be more helpful than a link to the kind of microscope you have.

[FungusMan]

My Zeiss:
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o ... microscopy
[/quote]
Several photos of your actual microscope and the lamp you are using would probably be more helpful than a link to the kind of microscope you have.
[/quote]

I will when I am back home - but I am quite sure it is an Axioskop 20.

[FungusMan]

The part number of the trinocular head is 452910 or 452912, according toa manual downloaded from the web,
and here is a market example (not related to me in any way):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Axioskop ... SwmcJdzUur

I am very glad to learn that I can replace to a trinocular head (I didn't realise there are people selling these!). This was somewhat the main issue for going to new. But I am strongly leaning to refurbish the current scope which is sturdy and well constructed. I will gather further comments to have a final decision.

[FungusMan]

Hi,
I would suggest to first look closer at these problems before you go on with that decision process:
- What is wrong with the objectives?
- Buy the proper lamp
- Have a look at the used market - these trincular heads might be difficult to find
- Locate and remove the dirt

Only then you have a good base to take a decision.

1. Images full of artifacts, I tried to clean the outer surfaces at no success
2. Yes, I just bought an ordinary one at the local show of almost same ratings - (25W / 6V). I know that the original was 30W. Would buying 40W or 50W give an advantage?
3. Apparently there are still available - many thanks to Hobbyst46 for his post
4. Needs to be investigate - eyepieces are fine, I use them in the motif stereo microscope and no dirt. I think the objectives are overused.

I think the Motics are at best in the same class as your Axioscope and you won't see an improvement over a well working Axioscope. For fungus work you might be better of with the older Axioscope where you could find and afford real high quality objectives on the used market.

Bob

Yeah sigh! On the other hand buying a new scope gives that joy of new. I would then opt for the BA310E (not BA410E - just borderline affordable) and add some extras, maybe a 5th x60 objective, a better x100 oil; the C-mount, and maybe an extra x12.5 eyepieces and a better reticule. I have two cheapos cheanese from eBay which are good but they get dirty after a short time and I have to open the outer lens and clean everytime )

[FungusMan]

Hi,
I would suggest to first look closer at these problems before you go on with that decision process:
- What is wrong with the objectives?
- Buy the proper lamp
- Have a look at the used market - these trinocular heads might be difficult to find
- Locate and remove the dirt

Only then you have a good base to make a decision.

1. Images full of artefacts, I tried to clean the outer surfaces at no success
2. Yes, I just bought an ordinary one at the local shop of almost the same ratings - (25W / 6V). I know that the original was 30W. Would buying 40W or 50W give an advantage?
3. Apparently there are still available - many thanks to Hobbyst46 for his post
4. Needs to be investigated - eyepieces are fine, I use them in the motif stereo microscope and no dirt. I think the objectives are overused.

I think the Motics are at best in the same class as your Axioscope and you won't see an improvement over a well working Axioscope. For fungus work you might be better of with the older Axioscope where you could find and afford real high-quality objectives on the used market.

Bob

Yeah sigh! On the other hand buying a new scope gives that joy of new. I would then opt for the BA310E (not BA410E - just borderline affordable) and add some extras, maybe a 5th x60 objective, a better x100 oil; the C-mount, and maybe an extra x12.5 eyepieces and a better reticule. I have two cheapos cheanese from eBay which are good but they get dirty after a short time and I have to open the outer lens and clean everytime )

[FungusMan]

A Zeiss made in 1980-1990 is a relatively modern machine with infinity corrected objectives. Good to know - likely it is the Axioscop 20 built in 1994

If the stand of your Axioskop is in very good mechanical shape, I would not even think of replacing it with any microscope except a modern one of the big-4 . Like the Olympus BX-51 maybe. [Too high for now! ]
But first, I would consider upgrading the Axioskop. [Okay, I am getting convinced! ]

Burnt halogen lamp - should be replaceable without decline of performance, but even if not, LED retrofits are available IMO; [TNX! ]

Damaged objectives - there are plenty of Axio microscopes objectives on eBay; asking prices might seem high, but (IMHO) the market is very limited (to those amateurs who can afford them) so significant discounts are likely;

Trinocular head - again, on eBay Axio trino heads exist, although have to verify that the various sub-models (Axio 20, Axio 50 etc) share the same head; [TNX for later post confirming! ]

[Hobbyst46]

On the other hand buying a new scope gives that joy of new.

This very understandable reason overrules all other technical/financial/experience considerations.
Comprehensive, unbiased user reviews of the quality and joy of using a modern Chinese microscope, especially a not-so-new scope, are very rare on this forum, possibly the reason why not everyone recommends buying one.

With all respect, objectives can be used and reused for decades and still function well. If possible, I would inspect each seemingly defective objective with a stereo microscope. Perhaps the problem is just dried oil or grease on the external surfaces.

I would not put a 40W bulb in a lamp that is designed for 30W. Instead, try to find the exact bulb as was originally fitted - the same size and type of filament and location of the filament within the bulb.

[PeteM]

To answer your question about the Motic BA400 series - I had one of these, purchased used. It came with fluorite objectives which were very good (not quite as good as Olympus UplanFl, but better than Plan Achromat). It was a good scope - mechanically sound and optically pretty good. However, for around $3500 US for a new one - I'd be inclined to either fix what you have or look for a more modern but used Nikon Eclipse, Olympus BX etc.

[MicroBob]

1. Images full of artefacts, I tried to clean the outer surfaces at no success
2. Yes, I just bought an ordinary one at the local shop of almost the same ratings - (25W / 6V). I know that the original was 30W. Would buying 40W or 50W give an advantage?
3. Apparently there are still available - many thanks to Hobbyst46 for his post
4. Needs to be investigated - eyepieces are fine, I use them in the motif stereo microscope and no dirt. I think the objectives are overused.

1.) A damaged or dirty front lens usually doesn't create artifacts but lowers contrast. There might be dirt on the back lens which could be removed with a blower and q-tips.
2.) Some microscope lamps are quite different from ordinary lamps. A used, worn lamp might actually be a bit brighter than a new one, but a new original bulb should be bright enough for the intended uses.
4.) In my experience with compound microscopes defects and dirt in eyepieces show more when used with higher power objectives.

I would suggest to closely check the different components to find the placement of the dirt particles by turning and moving components and look for moving dirt.

Bob

[FungusMan]

Thanks to everyone who helped my post. When back home I investigate a bit more. I think I attempt an upgrade of my Axiscope, and buy at least a new x100 (or x 60) objective, the head to a trinocular and try to find the right bulb, hopefully it is not a rarity!

So any objective will be compatible right ? It is just the luck of finding a good one on the market. Are there reliable shops who sell objectives rather taking the risk on eBay ?

[FungusMan]

To answer your question about the Motic BA400 series - I had one of these, purchased used. It came with fluorite objectives which were very good (not quite as good as Olympus UplanFl, but better than Plan Achromat). It was a good scope - mechanically sound and optically pretty good. However, for around $3500 US for a new one - I'd be inclined to either fix what you have or look for a more modern but used Nikon Eclipse, Olympus BX etc.

Thanks PeteM - I realised the BA410E is still over my budget. At anyrate if ever going to a new one, it would be the Motic BA310E and maybe buy it with Fluorite x40 and x 100 instead the Plan Achromat. Now I don't know if you can reply me back, but when I compared the 310E with the 410E - I only spotted a 5x nose head vs a 6x nose head in the 410 and the fluorite objectives. Is that all ?

thanks

[PeteM]

. . . when I compared the 310E with the 410E - I only spotted a 5x nose head vs a 6x nose head in the 410 and the fluorite objectives. Is that all ?

thanks

I haven't had a 310, but I believe there is a difference in the stands - slightly beefier than the 310, the extra objective spot in the turret, and a built-in slot for an analyzer. There may also be a wider view head - the 410 had 22mm, could be the 310 is 20mm??

Depending upon your location, for less money than a new 310 you could get something like a very good condition Olympus BX40 or Nikon E600 with much more "headroom" in terms of possible upgrades to (again used) fluorite objectives, polarization, and even DIC. And the Zeiss you already have is a very good scope.

[FungusMan]

Hi, I am sorry for not replying for so long. I am finally in my studio and can check personally my Zeiss. I apologize that my guesstimate was wrong, the Zeiss I owe is AxioLab re then there is the number 450905 [02].

I guess not to confuse matters, I will repost this accordingly, but is the AxioLab re a good scope ?

The objectives are x40/0.75 Plan-NeoFluar (44 03 50); x63/0.80 Achroplan (44 00 60) and x100/1.30 NeoFluar (4860960)

[BramHuntingNematodes]

That is some highly sophisticated anti-vibration matting! I have not seen this material used before...

[Hobbyst46]

Sorry to see such a fine machine in such status, and even corrosion ! Who knows what goes inside.

[FungusMan]

I bought it second hand 15 years ago. That's the question now is if it can be refurbished. The eyepieces are excellent, the stage and condenser fine, the optics to be tested again (but I think I should post separately from this thread). Hope I find patient fellows to assist me here.

So far I found a great community here.

[BramHuntingNematodes]

I guess what we're saying is that you pretty much have a moral duty to completely restore this scope to beautiful working condition. Sorry friend, but with great power etc.

[FungusMan]

I guess what we're saying is that you pretty much have a moral duty to completely restore this scope to beautiful working condition. Sorry friend, but with great power etc.

So what do you suggest pls? I am following the suggestions of the other members who advised to refurbish my scope? I need it for my Masters and I have 5 weeks time before I start analysing material. I was using a scope of a friend he kindly loaned to me, but he wanted it back now and I am a bit stranded. Is it worth to give this AxioLab a refurbish try?

I just cleaned the mechanical parts and outer surface (maybe you are judging the book from its cover). Now I am cleaning the objectives and I am searching the best way for it (we used ethanol at college) and then I post some images here. Later I will dis-assemble the scope and clean it. If all this does not help, i buy a new one. That was my plan, , hope it make sense at this point!

Your kind assistance will be greatly appreciated and i will start posting some stuff over here hopefully.

Thank

[Hobbyst46]

I just cleaned the mechanical parts and outer surface (maybe you are judging the book from its cover). Now I am cleaning the objectives and I am searching the best way for it (we used ethanol at college) and then I post some images here. Later I will dis-assemble the scope and clean it. If all this does not help, i buy a new one. That was my plan, , hope it make sense at this point!

I would first of all check all mechanical controls and knobs - focus, stage, condenser - If they are all smooth and stable, I would clean the objectives, eyepieces and condenser, but only superficially - blow off all dust. Or brush it off lightly with the softest hair brush. Then, if the optics appear to be stained, exhale on them then lightly wipe with a Kimwipe. Avoid ethanol - isopropanol (IPA) is more appropriate anyway, but just wiping under humidity should remove most of the problem. If it fails, wipe with a Q-tip moistened with IPA, doing single strikes, not rubbing. Then inspect a micrometer stage slide, and if possible take photos, to see and judge forwards. The whole cleaning process is best done when some type of illumination through the microscope is on, even a torch light can help.
Only following the above, I would consider disassembly.

[FungusMan]

I just cleaned the mechanical parts and outer surface (maybe you are judging the book from its cover). Now I am cleaning the objectives and I am searching the best way for it (we used ethanol at college) and then I post some images here. Later I will dis-assemble the scope and clean it. If all this does not help, i buy a new one. That was my plan, , hope it make sense at this point!

I would first of all check all mechanical controls and knobs - focus, stage, condenser - If they are all smooth and stable, I would clean the objectives, eyepieces and condenser, but only superficially - blow off all dust. Or brush it off lightly with the softest hair brush. Then, if the optics appear to be stained, exhale on them then lightly wipe with a Kimwipe. Avoid ethanol - isopropanol (IPA) is more appropriate anyway, but just wiping under humidity should remove most of the problem. If it fails, wipe with a Q-tip moistened with IPA, doing single strikes, not rubbing. Then inspect a micrometer stage slide, and if possible take photos, to see and judge forwards. The whole cleaning process is best done when some type of illumination through the microscope is on, even a torch light can help.
Only following the above, I would consider disassembly.

I followed most of the suggestions you said except I used a 40% ethanol in soapy water, then wipe and clean with damped cloth or tissue. The mechanical controls focus and stage and nosepiece are in excellent shape. I have viewed the objectives with my stereo and the x40 x63 and esp. x100 were dirty from inside. The x100 oil was very bad shape but I have noticed heavy dirt from inside. I could tell that the dirt is in the objective by turning a bit the objective and see the dirt rotating.

[FungusMan]

1. Overall the optics are good (not excellent) esp. the x4, x10, x40 and ok-ish x63 and x100.
2. I notice a dirty image/observation when I flipped the condensor on
3. The light source is not original bulb yet but a cheapo 12V 50W ac, the original is 6V 25W but I cant find that rating
4. I took these inages by placing mobile phone on eyepiece, but more or less it represents what I see
5. there seems to be fixed spots which I assume are in the core of the microscope, but I dont think it is worth dismantling?

I attach more images.

Next step is to try and clean the condensor I guess

[Hobbyst46]

Great progress !
Since it is mechanically sound, worthwhile to bring the optics to same status.
The chemicals that are considered most appropriate to clean optics (aside from proprietary products from microscope brands) are:
1. Distilled water
2. Isopropanol
3. Petrol ether or heptane (or a similar composition of hydrocarbons)
4. Xylene (carcinogen suspect, but one only needs a very small amount here)
No 2, 3 and 4 should be used very sparingly, a Q-tip moistened with it and only touch the glass surface; since, especially for xylene, if it penetrates into the objective/eyepiece, may dissolve glass cements inside.

The condenser can and should be cleaned; possibly, the glass surfaces within the head as well. Where exactly the Telan lens is situated in the Axio scopes I do not know.

[FungusMan]

I cleaned the condenser (easy to take out) and also screwed away the head and cleaned few more optics including a mirror. Image improved, but I still have one distinct blob at the very side seen under all objectives. Not a big issue. I think the results are satisfactory and it is green flag to upgrade.

Trinocular head / maybe a better x1000 oil objective and a original bulb.

Do I have your blessings about my opinion please ???

[FungusMan]

Great progress !
Since it is mechanically sound, worthwhile to bring the optics to same status.
The chemicals that are considered most appropriate to clean optics (aside from proprietary products from microscope brands) are:
1. Distilled water
2. Isopropanol
3. Petrol ether or heptane (or a similar composition of hydrocarbons)
4. Xylene (carcinogen suspect, but one only needs a very small amount here)
No 2, 3 and 4 should be used very sparingly, a Q-tip moistened with it and only touch the glass surface; since, especially for xylene, if it penetrates into the objective/eyepiece, may dissolve glass cements inside.

The condenser can and should be cleaned; possibly, the glass surfaces within the head as well. Where exactly the Telan lens is situated in the Axio scopes I do not know.

Many thanks. I have not used Xylene and Petrol ether at this time, the ethanol did a good work. I posted a pic maybe it is the Telan lens of my Axio although it looks like a mirror. Hope it goes well with the upgrade. Did you see this and what u think please? - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Axiolab- ... 3948436636

[BramHuntingNematodes]

Much improved! I would say that any scope off of eBay is going to require *at least* as much cleaning as what you have done and always has the potential to have something vital completely booshed on arrival.