Spring water.

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apochronaut
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Spring water.

#1 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:43 pm

This is an incubated water sample, from a long time ago. I don't even remember when I took it. Since the summer set in , it has become fairly murky and has a very active ecology of extremely small organisms, mostly bacterial. However, these springs, which I have encountered before, are showing up as well. They seem to be in mostly of two distinct sizes and of generally a pentagonal structure but there are some intermediate sizes too. I suspect they are all one species but the characteristics of the small ones seem a little different than the largest ones. Perhaps they just keep expanding, both in length as well as diameter but then sometimes individual large rings rings , either broken or just developing, lie flat on the slide. They have no chlorophyl and little internal structure.
Does anyone know what these are?

The pictures are uncropped, so the relative sizing is accurate.
Attachments
40X objective.
40X objective.
DSC01792 (1024x575).jpg (222.51 KiB) Viewed 4795 times
100X objective. Note the portion of a much larger ring to the right.
100X objective. Note the portion of a much larger ring to the right.
DSC01791 (1024x575).jpg (169.28 KiB) Viewed 4795 times
100X objective. This is what happened to all my sliinkys.
100X objective. This is what happened to all my sliinkys.
DSC01796 (1024x575).jpg (128.89 KiB) Viewed 4795 times
100X objective . A very compact example
100X objective . A very compact example
DSC01797 (1024x575).jpg (153.84 KiB) Viewed 4795 times
100X objective. A nicely expanded example.
100X objective. A nicely expanded example.
DSC01798 (1024x575).jpg (144.01 KiB) Viewed 4795 times
Last edited by apochronaut on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

apochronaut
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Re: Spring water.

#2 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:45 pm

A couple of more.
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100X. Few open rings.
100X. Few open rings.
DSC01795 (1024x575).jpg (162.78 KiB) Viewed 4794 times
100X. single flat large ring.
100X. single flat large ring.
DSC01794 (1024x575).jpg (157.4 KiB) Viewed 4794 times

billbillt
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Re: Spring water.

#3 Post by billbillt » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:01 pm

I have no idea what these are, but you have a strange group of critters... I have never seen this before.. It looks like Xylem in some views, but then it seems to be animal and not plant... I would also like to know what it is...

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mrsonchus
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Re: Spring water.

#4 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:42 pm

Hi Apo' lovely clear & crisp pictures - I also think these are possibly debris from plant vessel-elements maybe xylem, maybe not. The fact that they are not spiral but discreet 'rings' would rule out the secondary mature xylem I suspect.
They may be proto-xylem, which is of this discrete ring structure or they may be from a more primitive plant, i.e. not an angiosperm, as they too would be a 'fit' to these images.
If they are plant then they would be of lignin, and as such may be tested for with a suitable stain for lignin such as Toluidine-blue, which isn't the only lignin stain but is a very good performer with live wet specimens. In the presence of lignin it will turn blue, often light-blue.
May be worth a try? :)

p.s. maybe the remains from 'digested' plant material if your sample has had a period of 'brewing' - a possibility.
John B

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rnabholz
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Re: Spring water.

#5 Post by rnabholz » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:05 pm

Can't shed much light on the mystery, but wanted to say that these are some great darkfield shots.

I'll be watching for the mystery to be solved

Rod

JimT
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Re: Spring water.

#6 Post by JimT » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:11 pm

I also was thinking of xylem. As John says, maybe from digested plants. Or maybe very tiny slinkys :)

apochronaut
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Re: Spring water.

#7 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:16 pm

mrsonchus wrote:Hi Apo' lovely clear & crisp pictures - I also think these are possibly debris from plant vessel-elements maybe xylem, maybe not. The fact that they are not spiral but discreet 'rings' would rule out the secondary mature xylem I suspect.
They may be proto-xylem, which is of this discrete ring structure or they may be from a more primitive plant, i.e. not an angiosperm, as they too would be a 'fit' to these images.
If they are plant then they would be of lignin, and as such may be tested for with a suitable stain for lignin such as Toluidine-blue, which isn't the only lignin stain but is a very good performer with live wet specimens. In the presence of lignin it will turn blue, often light-blue.
May be worth a try? :)

p.s. maybe the remains from 'digested' plant material if your sample has had a period of 'brewing' - a possibility.
That sounds like a bull's eye , John. The surrounding rigid cell walls would cause the developing lignin to take on mostly a geometrical form, I suppose.
I will try staining but I am sure that is what is in there. I may eventually remember the source of the water because it was in a unique collection bottle.
They don't have much going on, to indicate anything resembling life in them. Thanks for the tip.

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c-krebs
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Re: Spring water.

#8 Post by c-krebs » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:19 pm

Nice shots!

See these fairly regularly in old samples. Definitely "left-overs" from decayed plant matter. See the second image (a photomicrograph) on this page http://waynesword.palomar.edu/trjune99.htm for a pretty good look at them in situ. I'll leave it to the plant experts like John to tell us their purpose in life.

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exmarine
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Re: Spring water.

#9 Post by exmarine » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:11 pm

I think this could be Spirulina virtually is an Oscillatoria with wavy or coiled filaments. Hence it is not surprising that some authorities consider its separation from Oscillatoria is unjustified. All this is yet another example of the unsatisfactory state of classification in this group and why new classifications are being proposed. What a mess how are we to know what we are looking at?
Its a plankton species lacking gas vacuoles and is also benthic.

Well that's my pennys worth.

All the best.
Thank you :shock:
Best regards
exmarine :x

uses Watson 'Service' 1950 compound.
uses Watson Stereo 1960 ish.

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vasselle
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Re: Spring water.

#10 Post by vasselle » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:48 pm

Very nice images
Cordialement seb
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Boitier EOS 1200D + EOS 1100D

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mrsonchus
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Re: Spring water.

#11 Post by mrsonchus » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:03 pm

exmarine wrote:I think this could be Spirulina virtually is an Oscillatoria with wavy or coiled filaments. Hence it is not surprising that some authorities consider its separation from Oscillatoria is unjustified. All this is yet another example of the unsatisfactory state of classification in this group and why new classifications are being proposed. What a mess how are we to know what we are looking at?
Its a plankton species lacking gas vacuoles and is also benthic.

Well that's my pennys worth.

All the best.
It appears not to be spiral more discrete rings and has a definite asymmetry that seems to suggest plant lignification of secondary cell-walls but I've only the few pictures that I've just 'Googled' to go by, what do you think old chap - it would very interesting to know what they are.
John B

apochronaut
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Re: Spring water.

#12 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:44 pm

exmarine wrote:I think this could be Spirulina virtually is an Oscillatoria with wavy or coiled filaments. Hence it is not surprising that some authorities consider its separation from Oscillatoria is unjustified. All this is yet another example of the unsatisfactory state of classification in this group and why new classifications are being proposed. What a mess how are we to know what we are looking at?
Its a plankton species lacking gas vacuoles and is also benthic.

Well that's my pennys worth.

All the best.
There was no evidence of any pigmentation, or inclusions of any kind. Some of the individual samples did appear to be of a spiral form, which I think could have been just a perception based on their convolutions. None of the individual rings, that more or less litter the surface of the slide are broken, so they present as being discreet rings. Although, there were large and small, there also were some intermediate sized. Spirulina would have quite consistent sizing for each species of which there are apparently only two. Am I correct on the last point?

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mrsonchus
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Re: Spring water.

#13 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:04 am

Hi again, it's perfectly possible and indeed probable, assuming these are vessel elements from a higher plant, that spirals will also be present in the company of the discrete rings, as the spiral thickening typical of mature xylem is usually within the same vascular-bundle as the annular-rings of the more primitive proto-xylem..

The asymmetric geometry is also typical of the primary (i.e. outer) cell walls as you mentioned, they are simply 'squashed' into asymmetric and usually angular shapes by surrounding/adjacent cells and vessels. The inner surface of the lignified secondary cell-wall rings or spirals is always smooth, although not often perfectly circular, usually slightly ovoid.

All very suggestive but not conclusive, though interesting to know. :)

Here are some live-stained that are similar,
ws_700x525_live_daff_xylem_2.jpg
ws_700x525_live_daff_xylem_2.jpg (62.7 KiB) Viewed 4723 times
and
ws_700x525_live_daff_xylem_1.jpg
ws_700x525_live_daff_xylem_1.jpg (45.16 KiB) Viewed 4723 times
Still not proof however, but a possibility.
John B

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gekko
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Re: Spring water.

#14 Post by gekko » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:40 am

Excellent images (and I know, having tried: not easy to do).

DonSchaeffer
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Re: Spring water.

#15 Post by DonSchaeffer » Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:18 am

Neat images

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