Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

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mrsonchus
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Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#1 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:04 pm

Hi all, I've been installing ToupView on my little Windows 10 'transformer' (10" 'Linx') and decided to run a few very basic comparisons between my trusty 2mp ToupCam usb camera and the mighty 16mp Canon EOS 1200D DSLR...

So here are a couple of very quick pictures - both stacked in ToupView 'weighted average' & defaults
the first is a 4-image stack of 16mp Canon pictures,
4-image stack
4-image stack
ws_canon_5stack.jpg (92.3 KiB) Viewed 6899 times
and the 2mp ToupCam 5-image stack for comparison (in a rather crude and basic way that is..)
5-image ToupCam stack
5-image ToupCam stack
ws_tv_x60_5image_stack.jpg (105.57 KiB) Viewed 6899 times
Not a lot of difference....?
Hmmm - yet again this is making me think about the best choice of camera! :shock: :D :)
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#2 Post by zzffnn » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:15 pm

John B,

The Canon image wins, if you zoom in onto those dark spots of nucleus (Those under the word "Canon" and "2mp"). Toupcan did not resolve the smallest two, while Canon did. Assuming both your stacks covered equally enough depth.

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#3 Post by 75RR » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:18 pm

I find the Canon image is sharper and smoother
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#4 Post by Johann » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:23 pm

ToupCam picture is very grainy - Canon is a much better result I think.
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#5 Post by vasselle » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:26 pm

Bonjour à tous.
Idem je trouve image fait avec le boitier Canon meilleur car le noyau est mieux résolu
Cordialement seb
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#6 Post by Crater Eddie » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:45 pm

Interesting project, and well worth doing. The differences are there of course, but are not as dramatic as one might expect.
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#7 Post by McConkey » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:14 pm

I echo all of the above...the canon image has a lot going for it! Great comparison!
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#8 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:37 pm

I would agree chaps - the Canon is a clear winner, but how surprising the performance of the humble 2mp ToupCam!

Also, for those a little less au fait with the somewhat more involved process of setting up the Canon - the ToupCam and it's range - I'm seriously thinking of going up to the 5mp version - is a very simple, stable and reliable solution, but does of course require the tether to a PC - although if you have a smallish (mine's 10") laptop/tablet running for example Windows 10 - with which the ToupCam hardware and the ToupView software have proven to be entirely compatible - all worked first time, this may not be a problem.

oh I forgot to mention, the Canon was shot via my impossible-to-clean Meiji x2.5 'projection' eyepiece - it seems to have less CR than either the ToupCam's optics (x2 I believe - focusable) or the Brunel x2 'universal' digital camera optics which are both very good but the Meiji perhaps unsurprisingly appears to have a slight advantage (and it is slight folks).

It seems to me a demonstrable fact (not of course on the basis of this simple and imperfect comparison alone) that the investment costs of optics for such amateur photomicroscopy rise exponentially whilst the image quality has a definite 'diminishing return' character.

Thanks all for the very useful and very fast feedback - great fun! :D :D :)
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#9 Post by gekko » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:39 pm

I am not qualified to comment due to my bad eyesight. Yet I'll be audacious and give my opinion for what it's worth: I may be wrong, but I see very little difference that can definitely be attributed to the camera (I think that the small differences that I see could happen if you took that image with the same camera on two different days, for example). I think both images are overexposed, with "blown" highlights. It may be good to repeat the experiment with less exposure, and perhaps take two or three different images with each camera and not tell us which image was taken with which camera, so our opinions are not biased.
I am sure that the full resolution image from the Canon would be much better than that from the Toupcam, but I wonder whether there would be large differences once they are both downsized to less than 1 Mp for posting (but again, I may be wrong!)
Last edited by gekko on Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#10 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:43 pm

gekko wrote:I am not qualified to comment due to my bad eyesight. Yet I'll be audacious and give my opinion for what it's worth: I may be wrong, but I see very little difference that can definitely be attributed to the camera (I think that the small differences that I see could happen if you took that image with the same camera on two different days, for example). I think both images are overexposed, with "blown" highlights. It may be good to repeat the experiment with less exposure, and perhaps take two or three different images with each camera and not tell us which image was taken with which camera, so our opinions are not biased.
I am sure that the full resolution image from the Canon would be much better than that from the Toupcam, but I wonder whether there would be large differences once they are both downsized to less than 1 Mp for posting (but again, I may be wrong!)
Your opinion is very useful - always useful old chap!
I think I may well 'do a proper test' soon as this one was just a quick dabble - the highlights are ghastly aren't they? :oops:

Thanks gekko and all!
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#11 Post by gekko » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:49 pm

In my view (again, I maybe wrong) going to a 5 Mp Toupcam may be good if it has better specifications other than an increase in pixel count. For example if it has better noise specification at comparable ISO, or has a higher dynamic range. However, the higher resolution would be important in any case if you plan to print your images (2 Mp is not sufficient unless you want to make only very small prints), or if you plan to crop images.

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#12 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:47 pm

gekko wrote:In my view (again, I maybe wrong) going to a 5 Mp Toupcam may be good if it has better specifications other than an increase in pixel count. For example if it has better noise specification at comparable ISO, or has a higher dynamic range. However, the higher resolution would be important in any case if you plan to print your images (2 Mp is not sufficient unless you want to make only very small prints), or if you plan to crop images.
True I think gekko - it's all about the dynamic-range and the ability to handle it I'm sure. I often look in a most uneducated way at the s/n ratio and dynamic ranges of cameras in the hope of some consistent and useful way of assessing their capabilities but always resort to the 'buy it and try it' method - which hardly ever ends well unfortunately.

The higher resolution (or should I say pixel-count) probably always counts I think, but as you say it's never the whole story - it's so frustrating when the image seen through the 'scope is so vastly superior to that captured! :(

Ah well, we try, then we try again! :) Thanks all for the input - I'll follow this up soon with some more comparable images - the use of stacks, and of different numbers of frames is definitely sub-optimal. Maybe time for a more valid test I think. :) :D
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#13 Post by molehill » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:49 pm

A good thing to do would be to work out the microns pear pixel for either camera and each of your objectives.
Also read up on nyquest sampling. (Correct sampeling) This exersize should give you some insight in what you are trying to compare.
The bit range of the camera is also importend. DSLRs alow you to save in 12 or 14 bit raw files.
This can be a advantage.
There are however many other factors but having numbers to look at can give you some understsnding.

Good luck molehill

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#14 Post by mrsonchus » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:08 am

Thanks molehill - I'll look into those also. :)
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#15 Post by c-krebs » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:33 am

John,
You made a good camera choice. I too think the Canon looks a bit better, although frankly in this comparison I would not expect to see much difference at all. That is because a 60X objective is not very demanding as far as sensor resolution is concerned. And this is especially so when you magnify the intermediate image on the Canon an additional 2.5X.

It is somewhat counter-intuitive, but the most "demanding" objectives are lower power, relatively high NA (for their magnification). So something like a 4/0.16 or a 10/0.30 will require a sensor with much higher pixel density than something like a 60/0.85 or a 100/1.40... nearly 8 times as many pixels.

So in your comparison, the Canon APS-C at 16Mp is far oversampling based on the optical conditions. It would really require only a 1 to 1.2Mp sensor in that camera to record just about all the resolution a 60/0.85 objective (through a 2.5X projection eyepiece) can produce. ( :o I know... I know... sounds unbelievable and actually a little depressing but is is the nature of imaging with full spectrum light and the diffraction caused by very small effective apertures :x )

If the ToupTek is typical of 2Mp cameras of that type it has a sensor of (at best) 1/2" size (that's not the actual dimensions, it is just the funky way they designate sensor sizes). They are typically coupled to the trinocular tube with a 0.5X adapter. If that is the case with your equipment then the ToupTek would need 2 to 2.7 Mp when using the 60/0.85.

So choosing a microscope camera based on the number of pixels is not that straightforward. With low power, decently high NA objectives, (and the intermediate image properly fitted to the sensor) you will typically need a lot of pixels and your 16Mp sensor is fine and definitely worth having. The 2Mp ToupTek would not be capable of capturing the full resolved detail.

With very high power objectives the demands drop dramatically. The Canon 16Mp is now "overkill" as far as capturing resolution goes... you just don't need 16Mp. The ToupTek, at 2Mp, is now able to record output of the objective without leaving much, if anything, behind. In my mind I would greatly prefer to have a camera that is "oversampling" at high magnifications, but is still quite capable at recording the output of a good quality low magnification objectives.

We are just talking resolution "capture" ability. There are also other photographic considerations... noise levels, highlight detail (dynamic range), color quality, raw file capability (a "biggy") and more.

I spent a long time trying to figure out the relationships between sensor size, relay optic magnifications, intermediate image size, resolution capabilities of various objectives. Asked a lot of people, and read whatever I could find. To wrap my head around it I put together a spreadsheet that I still use today. You can find it here if interested:

http://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relay_micro.xls

You need to enter only 3 values, the objective power, the objective NA, and any additional magnification (or reduction) provided by optics between the objective and camera sensor. With a Bayer pattern color sensor you should aim for 3.5 pixels under each resolvable detail (although in certain cases that is unobtainable).
Last edited by c-krebs on Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#16 Post by mrsonchus » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:38 am

Thanks Charles - that's very handy information indeed and will help me to look further into it. Much appreciated old chap - and I'll have a good look at that spreadsheet too. :)
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#17 Post by apochronaut » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:23 pm

Looks like oversaturation in the reds and a limited dynamic range are the big problems with the Toupcam. Unless those capability gaps weren't solved in a higher mpx version of it, there would be little difference with this sample.

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#18 Post by mrsonchus » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:58 pm

apochronaut wrote:Looks like oversaturation in the reds and a limited dynamic range are the big problems with the Toupcam. Unless those capability gaps weren't solved in a higher mpx version of it, there would be little difference with this sample.
Hi Apo, thanks for your recent advice also old chap - yes, this is definitely a recurring theme with (my) photomicrography - the dreaded reds and the equally dreaded dynamic range - agree that a higher mp is not the complete solution - at the moment I think my favourite combination is the Canon + x2.5 Meiji PE.

The little Toupcam is a very handy choice for the new PC 'scope, quick and easy to hook up and small enough to leave plenty of room to view and scan etc through the unused eyepiece.

I suspect that an improvement in technique may afford me quite an improvement also - I really must put some time into proper study of my technique with camera-'scope.

Thanks for the input. :)
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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#19 Post by gekko » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:43 pm

Charles, I am aware of your spreadsheet and I have used it. It is a very significant piece of work, I think, and makes figuring out camera requirements a very simple and straightforward task. Thank you!

In my reply above, what I was thinking was that once the images are reduced in size to about 0.8 Mp for display on an average computer monitor, then no matter what the camera sensor resolutions are, the images would end up being the same (assuming all other sensor/camera characteristics were identical). This makes logical sense to me, but I don't know that it is true. Am I missing something? Many thanks.

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Re: Quick comparison - 2mp ToupCam vs 16mp Canon DSLR

#20 Post by Peter » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:22 pm

gekko wrote:what I was thinking was that once the images are reduced in size to about 0.8 Mp for display on an average computer monitor, then no matter what the camera sensor resolutions are, the images would end up being the same (assuming all other sensor/camera characteristics were identical). This makes logical sense to me, but I don't know that it is true. Am I missing something? Many thanks.
This was pretty much my thinking.
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