Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

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Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#1 Post by MicroBob » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:42 am

Hi together,
while experimenting with a Zeiss DIC "old" set I took these pictures.
The worm is from our 0,5 m³ rain water tank.
The sample was not too interesting, a lot of Scenedesmus, one Chaetonotus, not that much more.

Bob
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#2 Post by 75RR » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:02 pm

Perfect subject for flash!

Two different worms? Photos 2,4 and 5 look like Aeolosoma sp. One of my favorites.
a Zeiss DIC "old" set
#1, #2, #3 or #4 ? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1543

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#3 Post by MicroBob » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:28 pm

This was made with the low power illumination of a Phomi 1, second edition, I think 15W.
A powerfull LED illuminator would have helped as would have flash of cause.
I think it was the same worm on all images, but i'n not completely sure.
The Phomi is in very nice condition, but the centerable rotating stage needs maintenance and it was difficult to keep up with the fast worm.
It is set #3 from your list, as far as I know the oldest set for transmitted light that was produced in numbers.
The condenser was gummed up at the middle bearing, but no other damages and not used a lot. I can use it with the Phomi or with a smaller stand as I have the tube extender for this too.
I have a set of plan achromats but the 16:1 doesn't match any of the prisms, probably it is from the wrong series.
What works well is the 45mm Zeiss Jena 40/0,95 Apo dry objective, especially useful with the Optovar of the Phomi. it is not completely parfocal though because it is intended to be used with 13 pickup point eyepieces. it offers quite a flat field too.

Bob

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#4 Post by 75RR » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:53 pm

Nice to have a DIC system that works with so many objectives without having to purchase additional sliders.

When you say 15w I suppose that you are keeping the Phomi 1 as original as possible as I think you can add an external illuminator if you replace the original lamp and collector with a connector tube.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#5 Post by MicroBob » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:14 pm

I think the one slider of the old system might at best cover what two sliders of the newer system do. So the newer system should work with much more objectives as soon as you can afford more than two sliders. As far as I know the old Zeiss DIC components are less prone to delaminations than the newer Zeiss DIC components. I will have the opportunity to compare Zeiss DIC old to PZO DIC with MPI-3 head that i was able to buy for acceptable money a while ago. Apart from the image quality and the objectives that can be used it is also very much a question of how much I like it. Here the beautiful old Phomi and the old DIC scored very high after my first tests.

The Phomi is the first model, second edition without the white knob before the field aperture and already with the newer nosepiece mount, made from 1961 on. I too have the ABTO or ABT0, the control and power supply unit, also in nice condition. I want to make use of the reflective light option and possibly also the fluorescence option and will for sure update the illumination to LED. I have a Zeiss lamp that can be stuck in the back, but it protrudes a lot and I have think about the options I have. The ABTO is beautiful but it starts to smell like old electric after a while. :roll:
So I will see how I will power the LED.
These power supplies are quite nice and compact btw.: https://www.ebay.de/itm/323288745987

I'm not going to use the analog camera, I never liked film itself very much. What I think about is to exchange or change the tube head of the Phomi to one from a Phomi or Universal 2 because they have the option to use a beam splitter that leads part of the image to the bino and part to the top outlet where the camera waits. The Phomi 1 doesn't have this specific option.

Bob

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#6 Post by Wes » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:41 am

MicroBob wrote: What works well is the 45mm Zeiss Jena 40/0,95 Apo dry objective, especially useful with the Optovar of the Phomi. it is not completely parfocal though because it is intended to be used with 13 pickup point eyepieces. it offers quite a flat field too.
I know this is a long shot but would you perhaps have some idea which is the most appropriate single-objective slider for the Jena 40/0,95 Apo? The slider for Planapo 63/1,4 gives good DIC but also a pronounced dark-to-light gradient. The same slider gives ok DIC image with a regular Plan 40/0,65 with much less of a gradient which would suggest that the dedicated 40/0,65 slider might not be the best for the 40/0,95 objective.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#7 Post by MicroBob » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:27 am

Wes wrote:which is the most appropriate single-objective slider for the Jena 40/0,95 Apo
Hi Wes,
I'm sorry, but I have no idea. I have just begun to accumulate a bit of experience with the old DIC and never had to do with the new DIC.
As far as I know it is not possible to conclude from just the aperture which DIC setup will work.
With the old DIC compatibility is mixed new when the top lens of the condenser is changed from 1,4 apl achr. to 0,63. Changeing condenser height also has an effect on the DIC.

You might post this question in the german www.mikroskopie-forum.de.
I think someone there wrote about a systematic test of hundreds of combinations of objectives and sliders. :shock:

My old DIC system has 4 prisms in the revolver and one analysator that can be moved about 6mm or so to the side.
How many prisms does the new DIC condenser have? Where are the lower and upper polarizers in the new DIC system?

Bob

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#8 Post by 75RR » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:35 am

Wes wrote:
MicroBob wrote: What works well is the 45mm Zeiss Jena 40/0,95 Apo dry objective, especially useful with the Optovar of the Phomi. it is not completely parfocal though because it is intended to be used with 13 pickup point eyepieces. it offers quite a flat field too.
I know this is a long shot but would you perhaps have some idea which is the most appropriate single-objective slider for the Jena 40/0,95 Apo? The slider for Planapo 63/1,4 gives good DIC but also a pronounced dark-to-light gradient. The same slider gives ok DIC image with a regular Plan 40/0,65 with much less of a gradient which would suggest that the dedicated 40/0,65 slider might not be the best for the 40/0,95 objective.
My 40x/0.65 slider gives very good DIC with my Planapo 40x/1.0 Oel

You most probably have this link : http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=31435

the point is that until one tries it is hard to say what will work with what. Remember also to try the sliders both upside down and in the other DIC slot.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#9 Post by Wes » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:57 am

MicroBob wrote: You might post this question in the german http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de.
I think someone there wrote about a systematic test of hundreds of combinations of objectives and sliders. :shock:

My old DIC system has 4 prisms in the revolver and one analysator that can be moved about 6mm or so to the side.
How many prisms does the new DIC condenser have? Where are the lower and upper polarizers in the new DIC system?
Thanks Bob. I'll have a look on the German forum. Would "DIK Schieber kombination" be a good a key word combo to find this thread? The "new" condenser has two variants depending on the NA of the top lens(0,63 and 1,4) with two prisms per condenser along with a third slot for a special prism which is normally empty. The polarizer you can put either on top of the field diaphragm or in the 32mm slot in the condenser holder. The analyzer (if its fixed) you can put either into the 6x20mm slot that is also used for wave plates or if you have a rotatable analyzer it goes where you would normally put the big DIC slider of the old INKO set.
75RR wrote:Remember also to try the sliders both upside down and in the other DIC slot.
Upside down I do (this way the 16x slider gives beautiful DIC with a 10/0,32 Planapo). There are the little prism slots that you screw on the revolver but where is the other DIC slot?
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#10 Post by MicroBob » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Yesterday I did a short test with the 0,63 top lens. Since 0,63 and 1,4 overlap for most practical applications this offers aditional usable objectives. My first impression of the use of the low power top lens was good, it seem to be easy to get a really good image with some objectives. The Zeiss Jena 6,3 and 16 Apo, 45mm parfocal, the late brushed chrome version, work very well.

@Wes: I would ask for: "Zeiss DIC 160mm neu: Empfehlungen für Objektiv-Schieber-Kombinationen gesucht"
It is probably best to post a picture of your condenser and sliders to make sure everybody talks about the same system.

Where do you put the upper polarizer on a basic Zeiss Standard with Zeiss DIC new?

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#11 Post by 75RR » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:30 pm

Upside down I do (this way the 16x slider gives beautiful DIC with a 10/0,32 Planapo). There are the little prism slots that you screw on the revolver but where is the other DIC slot?
Sorry meant other DIC prism (Wollaston) in the condenser.

The idea is to try as many permutations as possible:
On every objective you want to achieve DIC on, use condenser position I and II and every slider you have, both right side up and upside down.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#12 Post by Wes » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:53 pm

75RR wrote:Sorry meant other DIC prism (Wollaston) in the condenser.

The idea is to try as many permutations as possible:
On every objective you want to achieve DIC on, use condenser position I and II and every slider you have, both right side up and upside down.
I see now. I think I exhausted all possible combos with the limited amount of sliders I currently have.

So the 40/0,65 slider with a 40/1,0 Planapo gives a good image with no background gradient?
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#13 Post by 75RR » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:04 pm

So the 40/0,65 slider with a 40/1,0 Planapo gives a good image with no background gradient?
Now you have me wondering. Will see if I can take and post an image with it today or tomorrow.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#14 Post by Wes » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:42 pm

That would be great, thanks a lot! When you are at it could you also test the 63/1,4 slider on the 40x planapo?
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#15 Post by 75RR » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:44 pm

Will do.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#16 Post by 75RR » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:50 pm

Test of Planapo 40x/1.0 Oel with 40x/0.65 DIC slider (Non Designated Objective)

First the objective.
As can be seen in the image when the objective is locked up (which keeps it out of the way when not in use) the rear lens protrudes from the top.
It is the only objective I have that does this. It is not normally a problem, unless one has it attached to a 'DIC Adapter Ring' in which case it bumps against it.
When used in this way the objective can not be locked up.

I bought this objective cheaply because it was delaminated. I would expect better results with a non delaminated objective.


There seems to be a gradient effect running diagonally top to bottom - right to left.

The 40x/0.65 slider was in position II and right side up. Photo consists of a 23 image stack

Also tried the 63x DIC slider on the Planapo 40x/1.0. Placed it right side up, upside down and in condenser positions I and II. Result was unsatisfactory.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#17 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:41 pm

75RR,

1. I have a 40X1.0 iris oil objective that is almost identical to yours, but lacks the annotations "PC 08 ..."
As far as I can see there is no possibility of lock. The back lens is always recessed in the barrel, not exposed.

2. The beautiful image of the diatom that you achieved with a delaminated objective demonstrates once more that high-level microscopy is far more than owning "prestigious" and expensive equipment.

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#18 Post by MicroBob » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:56 pm

Hi Glen,
nice image! Sometimes it is good to have no comparison. It is easier to be happy with what is available this way.
Generally I would always try delaminated optics and see how they perform. It might be no big problem in practical use.

The protruding back lens is probably no problem when used on the intended nose piece. The older black non-ball bearing Zeiss Jena nose pieces from the LG up to the NF were built very flat and this lens could easily be damaged.

Bob

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#19 Post by Wes » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:26 pm

75RR wrote: There seems to be a gradient effect running diagonally top to bottom - right to left.
Many thanks for taking the time to check this combination 75'. It does not look bad at all, the gradient on the photo appears negligible and the diatom looks sharp and well defined. Nice work!
75RR wrote: Also tried the 63x DIC slider on the Planapo 40x/1.0. Placed it right side up, upside down and in condenser positions I and II. Result was unsatisfactory.
Unsatisfactory in the sense that you don't get good contrast or gradient is too strong?
MicroBob wrote: Sometimes it is good to have no comparison. It is easier to be happy with what is available this way.
There is a lot of wisdom in that statement. I've had many examples where I buy a desired piece of equipment destined to replace an existing one only to discover it performs no better if not worse than the old piece.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#20 Post by MicroBob » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:45 pm

Often it is not the technical performance of the equipment, but a combination of lots of components, among them knowledge, experience, intuition, phantasy and courage.
Take Glens diatom image here: Pick someone from the street and give him equipment for 100.000€ and wait until he brings a comparable image! :mrgreen:
When I look at the topics in this forum I often just enjoy that people identify an interesting subject and work with it. A couple of delaminations won't stop them! :lol:

Bob

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#21 Post by 75RR » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:57 pm

Thanks Hobbyst46, MicroBob, Wes and Bob
As far as I can see there is no possibility of lock.
Try pushing up/in and turn anticlockwise. Objectives with a small WD usually have this. Then again it appears that not all 40x/1.0 have this feature. See David Walker's article below

Thought the m.l. designation was what varied ... see image below
The protruding back lens is probably no problem when used on the intended nose piece.
True, it is however a little awkward with DIC #4 though when rotating the nosepiece.
Generally I would always try delaminated optics and see how they perform. It might be no big problem in practical use.
Sometimes worth a gamble.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ind ... delam.html
Unsatisfactory in the sense that you don't get good contrast or gradient is too strong?
Did not produce DIC
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#22 Post by MicroBob » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:10 pm

75RR wrote:True, it is however a little awkward with DIC #4 though when rotating the nosepiece.
My Phomi 1 has a round stage and the objectives hit the x-axis of the object guide because the nose piece is inclined backwards. Today I was told that the intended orientation is to have the x-axis in front and insert the slide from behind - this is awkward!

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#23 Post by 75RR » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:22 pm

Today I was told that the intended orientation is to have the x-axis in front and insert the slide from behind - this is awkward!
I have heard that that is the correct placement. Unfortunately I did not know that when I first got a round stage and have now got used to controlling the stage with my left hand. Tried turning the stage around but did not feel comfortable changing hands, so I am stuck with yet another bad habit!
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#24 Post by MicroBob » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:27 pm

I think it would help to add some strips of metal to the slide holder so the slide is a bit further away from the x-axis.

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#25 Post by Wes » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:48 pm

75RR wrote:
Unsatisfactory in the sense that you don't get good contrast or gradient is too strong?
Did not produce DIC
Very interesting. A few days ago I was a bit careless and had the analyzer off by about 10-15 degrees. When I rotated the polarizer to compensate for the analyzer offset it produced great DIC with the 63x slider - Jena 40x apo combination (overall contrast is much more pronounced and it has this beautiful metalic background; gradient stays the same though).
MicroBob wrote:Today I was told that the intended orientation is to have the x-axis in front and insert the slide from behind - this is awkward!
Do you mean like this:

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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#26 Post by 75RR » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:38 pm

Rotating Stage Position. Note that this is the only way to read the graduated scales.
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#27 Post by 75RR » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:28 am

MicroBob wrote:Yesterday I did a short test with the 0,63 top lens. Since 0,63 and 1,4 overlap for most practical applications this offers aditional usable objectives. My first impression of the use of the low power top lens was good, it seem to be easy to get a really good image with some objectives. The Zeiss Jena 6,3 and 16 Apo, 45mm parfocal, the late brushed chrome version, work very well.
Was having a look at the documentation for your DIC system #3 ( viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1543 ) when I noticed a curious phrase: "1.4 front lens for immersion only " See image below

Also what are the numbers of the Wollaston prisms in the condenser,
do you have the Pol filters set at extinction
and do you get a diagonal black band when viewing with Bertrand lens in Brightfield port ?
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Re: Naidinae ? Wor from the water tank in our garden

#28 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:21 am

Hi together,

what they omit in the cross section of the Phomi are a coupe of objectives sticking out to the sides. I find it quite fiddly to move a wet mount slide around the nose piece and objectives, put it down next to the slide holders, open them and move the slide in from the back. For now I have mounted the big square stage with low controls I have refurbished on sunday. The older Phomi stage is of impressive built quality though.

"1.4 front lens for immersion only "
Generally I get a good DIC image with and without oil. Oiling doesn't really seem an advantage for the lower powers, but I have to do a photographic comparison to proove this.

Also what are the numbers of the Wollaston prisms in the condenser,
1,2,3,4 dots manually applied with a center punch
do you have the Pol filters set at extinction
yes. I made a filter holder that sits in under the condenser with a piece of polarizing foil in it. I guess that there are better polarizers available than this. The old Zeiss ones were all delaminated. I will have a look through my microscope and photo stuff whether I have a polarizer that is better
and do you get a diagonal black band when viewing with Bertrand lens in Brightfield port ?
yes

Bob

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