Matching camera with C-mount

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Geode
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Matching camera with C-mount

#1 Post by Geode » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:39 pm

Hey everyone,

So, I've been experimenting with my new trinocular scope (Accuscope 3025) and I'm ready to start filming my samples.
My scope was purchased used, and it came with a 1x c-mount adapter. No lenses inside, just a tube , hence the 1x.
I'm trying to figure out out how to pair it with a camera.
From what I understand, it needs a 1" sensor.
I can't find any resources that explain the process though. What happens if I paid it with a different size sensor?
Do I need some sort of lens between the camera and the objectives? How does the camera deal with the lack of magnification the eyepieces provide? Don't I need a 10x lense for the camera to match what the eyepieces show?

I thought I'd start with a super cheap camera like the 9ne described here: https://youtu.be/tcyhaJE_7co
Just to get me started, while avoiding spending $500+ at first on a camera that won't do what I need.

I will be filming and shooting soil and compost samples, so up to 400x magnification. High frame rate is needed at a reasonable resolution, to ID nematodes and see bacterial morphology.

See the photos attached.
The measurement from the outer part of the ring is 1 inch or 25mm.
The opening itself is almost 3/4 inch or 28.5mm. Although, there is an internal ring that is a few mm smaller inside.. so for something to fall through it would need to be around 26mm wide.

Any advice?
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micro
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:11 am

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#2 Post by micro » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:54 pm

I think a c mount is generally used with a dslr so if you get one of those usb cameras you won't actually need the c mount. The distance from the camera to the image produced by the microscope is a factor and has to be placed with the correct distance to be in focus.

Hobbyst46
Posts: 2940
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#3 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:59 pm

Geode wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:39 pm
My scope was purchased used, and it came with a 1x c-mount adapter. No lenses inside, just a tube , hence the 1x.
IMHO, a cheap eyepiece camera (I mean, 60-70USD or even less; Toupcam camera or equivalent) is a good starting point, in the absence of previous experience with photomicrography of soil. You fit it into the eyepiece tube or phototube and monitor the image in real time, via USB to a PC.
As mentioned in the previous response, its position within the phototube should be adjusted for parfocality with the viewing eyepieces. Such cameras often come with a 0.5x reducing lens. With that lens, better coverage of the field of view is achieved. An eyepiece is not needed in this case. Probably, since the optics are infinity corrected, performance will be OK.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

jfiresto
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:19 am
Location: Northern Germany

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#4 Post by jfiresto » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:03 pm

If you do not need live video, I would get a used, micro four thirds system camera and mount it with an inexpensive c-mount to µ4/3rds thread adapter. Been there, done that, problem solved and more cheaply. If you need live video, you may want to price out the alternatives.
-John

BramHuntingNematodes
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:29 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#5 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:08 pm

Geode wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:39 pm
Hey everyone,

So, I've been experimenting with my new trinocular scope (Accuscope 3025) and I'm ready to start filming my samples.
My scope was purchased used, and it came with a 1x c-mount adapter. No lenses inside, just a tube , hence the 1x.
I'm trying to figure out out how to pair it with a camera.
From what I understand, it needs a 1" sensor.
I can't find any resources that explain the process though. What happens if I paid it with a different size sensor?
Do I need some sort of lens between the camera and the objectives? How does the camera deal with the lack of magnification the eyepieces provide? Don't I need a 10x lense for the camera to match what the eyepieces show?

I thought I'd start with a super cheap camera like the 9ne described here: https://youtu.be/tcyhaJE_7co
Just to get me started, while avoiding spending $500+ at first on a camera that won't do what I need.

I will be filming and shooting soil and compost samples, so up to 400x magnification. High frame rate is needed at a reasonable resolution, to ID nematodes and see bacterial morphology.

See the photos attached.
The measurement from the outer part of the ring is 1 inch or 25mm.
The opening itself is almost 3/4 inch or 28.5mm. Although, there is an internal ring that is a few mm smaller inside.. so for something to fall through it would need to be around 26mm wide.

Any advice?
the reducing lens is to better match the projected image to the sensor size it's needed for some sizes of sensor but not for others-- very camera specific.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

micro
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:11 am

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#6 Post by micro » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:09 pm


Scarodactyl
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Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#7 Post by Scarodactyl » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:28 pm

micro wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:54 pm
I think a c mount is generally used with a dslr so if you get one of those usb cameras you won't actually need the c mount. The distance from the camera to the image produced by the microscope is a factor and has to be placed with the correct distance to be in focus.
I think you are mixing mounts up. Dslrs are not c mount compatible for a few reasons. Pretty much all microscope cameras are set up for c mounts.

Geode
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#8 Post by Geode » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:02 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:59 pm
Geode wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:39 pm
My scope was purchased used, and it came with a 1x c-mount adapter. No lenses inside, just a tube , hence the 1x.
IMHO, a cheap eyepiece camera (I mean, 60-70USD or even less; Toupcam camera or equivalent) is a good starting point, in the absence of previous experience with photomicrography of soil. You fit it into the eyepiece tube or phototube and monitor the image in real time, via USB to a PC.
As mentioned in the previous response, its position within the phototube should be adjusted for parfocality with the viewing eyepieces. Such cameras often come with a 0.5x reducing lens. With that lens, better coverage of the field of view is achieved. An eyepiece is not needed in this case. Probably, since the optics are infinity corrected, performance will be OK.
Yes, live viewing on a screen will be ideal. I seem to have some artifacts in my eyes that are making viewing at higher magnification very troublesome.
I made it sure it was my own eyes, not the eyepieces themselves. I also compared with other people looking through the eyepieces. So, I may want to use a usb-3 or hdmi for direct viewing on a screen for sure.
Is there a resource somewhere that explains how the camera captures an image similar to the 10x eyepieces without blowing up the image 10 times? I just feel like I'm in the dark about the whole process and find it difficult to choose between products I don't understand fully.

Geode
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#9 Post by Geode » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:14 pm

micro wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:09 pm
Thank you for this. Explains the 0.5 reduction lens idea. Although, I may need to look for a visual explanation (with comparison photos and such) to understand it better.
The issue is, I do not want to use one of my eyepieces for filming. I need to have the binocular head available for direct viewing and use the phototube I paid extra for instead.
I looked into dropping an eyepiece into the phototube but was recommended not to do this, but there is no way to secure the eyepiece in the tube.

He brings us a good point about low light viewing and the camera's ability to resolve the image.
To view bacteria, I need to be closing down the iris diaphram almost all the way, greatly reducing the light available. This means I need a camera that can work at low light it seems.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#10 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:18 pm

It's a digital camera, so there is no fixed magnification, just resolution. Even for a film camera the negative gets magnified somewhat arbitrarily when making a print. You can shrink or enlarge the image on your monitor to whatever size you want.

So-- you can record video without an eyepiece and without a camera lens-- direct imaging. You fasten the camera so the bare image sensor looks through the photo tube, and a real image will be projected onto the sensor. I do this with my Dynazoom, except my sensor is small-- 1/2.3-- so I use the reduction lens in there.

A more complicated setup is afocal, which uses both the eyepiece and the camera lens. You can think of the camera lens filling the role of the lens in your eye. I use this method for my Dynoptic because it has some specialized apochromat lenses that have some corrections performed in the eyepiece. They look bad when imaged directly. I also use a tiny telefoto lens with this setup so that I can get the camera lens the right distance from the eyepiece without most of the image being blacked out with just a little circle in the middle. This setup is not always the best because you have to make sure that your camera lens is projecting pretty near the exact right size image into your sensor or again the image will look bad. I use a 1/2.5 sensor with this setup and the first lens I had, optimized for a 1/2 sensor, performed noticeably worse than the lens made for the 1/2.5 sensor.

Anyway, if you can avoid all of that, all's the better. It's a tradeoff between whatever eyepiece corrections are supposed to happen versus the noise introduced by the complexities of the afocal setup. If you got regular achromat lenses and the eyepieces don't really add too many corrections, it's an easy decision. Do direct imaging. If you have beloved and special lenses from the 40s and 50s with the exactly right correcting eyepieces, it's usually also pretty easy: do afocal.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Geode
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#11 Post by Geode » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:08 am

BramHuntingNematodes wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:18 pm
It's a digital camera, so there is no fixed magnification, just resolution. Even for a film camera the negative gets magnified somewhat arbitrarily when making a print. You can shrink or enlarge the image on your monitor to whatever size you want.

So-- you can record video without an eyepiece and without a camera lens-- direct imaging. You fasten the camera so the bare image sensor looks through the photo tube, and a real image will be projected onto the sensor. I do this with my Dynazoom, except my sensor is small-- 1/2.3-- so I use the reduction lens in there.

A more complicated setup is afocal, which uses both the eyepiece and the camera lens. You can think of the camera lens filling the role of the lens in your eye. I use this method for my Dynoptic because it has some specialized apochromat lenses that have some corrections performed in the eyepiece. They look bad when imaged directly. I also use a tiny telefoto lens with this setup so that I can get the camera lens the right distance from the eyepiece without most of the image being blacked out with just a little circle in the middle. This setup is not always the best because you have to make sure that your camera lens is projecting pretty near the exact right size image into your sensor or again the image will look bad. I use a 1/2.5 sensor with this setup and the first lens I had, optimized for a 1/2 sensor, performed noticeably worse than the lens made for the 1/2.5 sensor.

Anyway, if you can avoid all of that, all's the better. It's a tradeoff between whatever eyepiece corrections are supposed to happen versus the noise introduced by the complexities of the afocal setup. If you got regular achromat lenses and the eyepieces don't really add too many corrections, it's an easy decision. Do direct imaging. If you have beloved and special lenses from the 40s and 50s with the exactly right correcting eyepieces, it's usually also pretty easy: do afocal.
Ok makes sense, thanks.
What I am still uncertain of is the need/use of the 1x c-mount I have... I presume I will need a c-mount if I go with the direct imaging, so that I have something to fit the camera onto the phototube. Correct?

Seeing as I have the 1x already, I will need to find a camera with a 1" sensor? I guess this limits my choices. And I assume that means I'll be stuck with more expensive cameras in that case (because of the larger sensor size). I could compare to buying a new c-mount compatible with a smaller sensor camera.

Any thoughts on that?

jfiresto
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Location: Northern Germany

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#12 Post by jfiresto » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:14 am

Geode wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:08 am
... Seeing as I have the 1x already, I will need to find a camera with a 1" sensor? I guess this limits my choices. And I assume that means I'll be stuck with more expensive cameras in that case (because of the larger sensor size)....
I will resume writing up my micro four thirds experiences, right after I prepare for some moisture-cured adhesive and start it very slowly drying.

Where are you?
-John

MichaelG.
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Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#13 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:40 am

Geode wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:02 pm
I just feel like I'm in the dark about the whole process and find it difficult to choose between products I don't understand fully.
Please take a few minutes to get-to-grips with sensor sizes
... then you will have a better idea of what the strange numbers actually mean.

This is a good introduction:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/80958 ... ensorsizes

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

Geode
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#14 Post by Geode » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:40 am
Geode wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:02 pm
I just feel like I'm in the dark about the whole process and find it difficult to choose between products I don't understand fully.
Please take a few minutes to get-to-grips with sensor sizes
... then you will have a better idea of what the strange numbers actually mean.

This is a good introduction:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/80958 ... ensorsizes

MichaelG.
Thanks Michael, this helps!

Geode
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#15 Post by Geode » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53 am

jfiresto wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:14 am
Geode wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:08 am
... Seeing as I have the 1x already, I will need to find a camera with a 1" sensor? I guess this limits my choices. And I assume that means I'll be stuck with more expensive cameras in that case (because of the larger sensor size)....
I will resume writing up my micro four thirds experiences, right after I prepare for some moisture-cured adhesive and start it very slowly drying.

Where are you?
I wait the story! Haha
You mean to ask where I live? South Florida

jfiresto
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:19 am
Location: Northern Germany

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#16 Post by jfiresto » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:43 pm

Geode wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53 am
You mean to ask where I live? South Florida
I asked because I have a couple, extra, used micro four thirds bodies I picked up while researching cameras to mount on a 1" c-mount photoport. You could use one to evaluate the microscope and photoport, and get some idea of what you might then need.

I paid ca. $60 for each, with the usual, came-with-the-camera accessories, shipping and a 1 year camera store warranty. Unfortunately, shipping to the U.S. probably would not make sense: it might cost more than the camera and certainly more than what I would ask. The last time I checked, there was just expensive, express shipping because of the much reduced, transatlantic flight schedules.
-John

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75RR
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Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#17 Post by 75RR » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:34 am

Here is a good explanation on camera/microscope compatibility + a link to the main site where there are additional articles

http://www.krebsmicro.com/pdf/trinoc_a3.pdf

http://www.krebsmicro.com/
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Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#18 Post by viktor j nilsson » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:06 am

This is also a good thread on the topic:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 9265#99265

Geode
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Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#19 Post by Geode » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:17 am

jfiresto wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:43 pm
Geode wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53 am
You mean to ask where I live? South Florida
I asked because I have a couple, extra, used micro four thirds bodies I picked up while researching cameras to mount on a 1" c-mount photoport. You could use one to evaluate the microscope and photoport, and get some idea of what you might then need.

I paid ca. $60 for each, with the usual, came-with-the-camera accessories, shipping and a 1 year camera store warranty. Unfortunately, shipping to the U.S. probably would not make sense: it might cost more than the camera and certainly more than what I would ask. The last time I checked, there was just expensive, express shipping because of the much reduced, transatlantic flight schedules.
I see! Could you list out the ones you purchased? Or perhaps the ones that seemed most worth it?
I could look for them here, myself. And thank you for offering!

Geode
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#20 Post by Geode » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:17 am

75RR wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:34 am
Here is a good explanation on camera/microscope compatibility + a link to the main site where there are additional articles

http://www.krebsmicro.com/pdf/trinoc_a3.pdf

http://www.krebsmicro.com/
Thank you!

Geode
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Re: Matching camera with C-mount

#21 Post by Geode » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:18 am

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:06 am
This is also a good thread on the topic:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 9265#99265
Thanks!

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