Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

Here you can discuss everything related to taking light micrographs and videos.
Message
Author
User avatar
vasselle
Posts: 2763
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:32 pm
Location: France

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#31 Post by vasselle » Sun May 31, 2015 4:19 am

Bonjour a tous.
Il faut penser aussi que il y a pas que la camera USB ou un reflex numérique qui compte pour faire de bonne photos.
Ce qui compte beaucoup aussi c'est comment on prépare ces échantillons que l'on veux photographier.
Car une bonne observation ou une bonne photographie au microscope c'est avant tout une très bonne préparation du spécimen.
En tout cas j'ai une Bresser MicroCam de 3,0 MP et je trouve quel me fournie de très bonne photo car les fins détails sont très bien reconstituer.
Voici une photo d'un Acella photographier avec la Bresser MicroCam de 3,0 MP.
2315_filtered_GF (Copier).jpg
2315_filtered_GF (Copier).jpg (216.07 KiB) Viewed 13718 times
Mes avec ce genre de camera là il faut surtout bien les régler avant toute photo.
Avec l'expérience je trouve qui faut mieux régler l'exposition en manuelle surtout pas en automatique et bien régler la balance des blancs et si votre camera le permet enregistrer les photos aux formats TIFF surtout si vous avez attention de remettre un peu de contraste etc sur Photoshop.
Cordialement seb
Microscope Leitz Laborlux k
Boitier EOS 1200D + EOS 1100D

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#32 Post by Astyanax » Sun May 31, 2015 8:57 am

Thanks Gekko
I am still waiting on AmScope to send me an image as they have promised. But its been a while, somehow it probably won't happen.
I will probably get the T720 and if the 4x doesn't work the 10x should with image stitching.

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#33 Post by Astyanax » Sun May 31, 2015 9:19 am

Thank you Vasselle for an exquisite great image. Yes preparation is critically important for good images.

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#34 Post by 75RR » Sun May 31, 2015 10:36 am

I just find it easier to look at the back focal plane of the objective, especially if you have a phase centering telescope (or if the microscope is fitted with a Bertrand lens) than setting up a mirror or slide (as a mirror) to look at the image of the filament focused on the condenser iris.
Surely one can focus on both the condenser iris and the back focal plane with a Bertrand lens.
Now I am wondering if I have been doing it wrong!
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#35 Post by gekko » Sun May 31, 2015 10:42 am

75RR wrote:
I just find it easier to look at the back focal plane of the objective, especially if you have a phase centering telescope (or if the microscope is fitted with a Bertrand lens) than setting up a mirror or slide (as a mirror) to look at the image of the filament focused on the condenser iris.
Surely one can focus on both the condenser iris and the back focal plane with a Bertrand lens.
Now I am wondering if I have been doing it wrong!
Yes. I'm not sure what you mean by "doing it wrong". You will be focusing simultaneously on both, since they are optical conjugates.

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#36 Post by 75RR » Sun May 31, 2015 10:49 am

... than setting up a mirror or slide (as a mirror) to look at the image of the filament focused on the condenser iris.
I do not do this. I observe the condenser iris (+ filament) as I do the back focal plane of the objective (+ filament) by refocusing the Bertrand lens. Why is a mirror or mirror effect necessary?
I focus on the condenser iris and then bring the element into focus. Is that not right?
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#37 Post by gekko » Sun May 31, 2015 11:01 am

75RR wrote:
... than setting up a mirror or slide (as a mirror) to look at the image of the filament focused on the condenser iris.
I do not do this. I observe the condenser iris (+ filament) as I do the back focal plane of the objective (+ filament) by refocusing the Bertrand lens. Why is a mirror or mirror effect necessary? I focus on the condenser iris and then bring the element into focus. Is that not right?
Astyanax used the mirror to see (by reflection) the (fully closed) condenser iris from below in order to adjust the lamp position to get a focused image of the filament on the iris. You are looking at a conjugate of that when you examine the back focal plane of the objective [where the image of both the iris and filament are formed]. Those are different ways of accomplishing the same thing. Does that make sense?

The QCC
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#38 Post by The QCC » Sun May 31, 2015 11:06 am

I cannot say or demonstrate Kohler illumination better than this presentation.

Kohler illumination setup

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#39 Post by 75RR » Sun May 31, 2015 11:15 am

Does that make sense?
Only if using a mirror or mirrored surface is an alternative to using a Bertrand lens. (as in lack of)

The QCC: This is about the step previous to your "steps". Nice presentation by the way.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#40 Post by gekko » Sun May 31, 2015 11:51 am

Apologies to Astyanax: we didn't mean to hijack your thread :) .
75RR wrote:
Does that make sense?
Only if using a mirror or mirrored surface is an alternative to using a Bertrand lens. (as in lack of.
It is (for the purpose of adjusting the filament position).

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#41 Post by 75RR » Sun May 31, 2015 12:08 pm

Apologies to Astyanax: we didn't mean to hijack your thread :) .
Yes. Sorry about that.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

apochronaut
Posts: 6327
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#42 Post by apochronaut » Sun May 31, 2015 8:48 pm

Astyanax wrote: My thinking and need is purely resolution driven, colour is secondary.
That's a most important piece of information. Resolution is created in the microscope and then theoretically captured by the camera. I am one of those people who, while I recognize the convenience of purchasing a new , clean, microscope, that is made and performs to a certain standard, I also see that you are used to using a Vanox . If maximum resolution is your goal, no budget Chinese microscope is going to have that capability. A 40x .65 achromat or planachromat is a 40x .65. It isn't a 40x .85 , nor a fluorite nor an apo. You can buy a lot of resolution in a used microscope, for a lot less than any decent new Chinese microscope would cost. You also will get the benefit of old world craftsmanship and superb precision in construction, rather than a conglomerate of metal and plastic that once it breaks( and it will), might be very difficult to put right. Aluminum, cast iron, steel and brass can always be fixed; often not so with split, stripped or cracked nylon or plastic.
Here is another thought. Once you do get the resolution close to or at the level you require, you need to get that digitally captured. There is a lot of software out there to help with chromatic aberration , depth of field , sharpness etc. but the original image can only be improved so much. You have to bear in mind that it takes approx. a 20 mp. camera to equal the resolution of a high quality fine grain 35mm emulsion image, so for example ,starting with a basic 20x .40 N.A. planachromat and then capturing the image with a 5mp camera is never going to grant you a high resolution image.
Almost all cheaper microscopes have a 1.25 N.A. abbe condenser. Whether it has a flip top feature or not is irrelevant because that is only of value for the low power objectives and they don't even need a condenser, so if you are paying more for that flip top feature , it is basically a useless convenience. Getting a 1.25 abbe condenser with a microscope is a lot like getting pneumatic tires on a new car. If those two features AREN'T part of the respective packages, then just what is? Abbe condensers are not the best for photomicrography, whether kohler illuminated or not. Abbe aspherics are better, aplanatic achromats are even better and are pretty much mandated for microphotography , where higher resolution is being sought. Only the really high end Chinese scopes selling for well over 1000.00, would offer such options, however, it is almost routine to source those kinds of condensers for less than 100.00 to fit numerous brands of used scopes.I have bought two, 1.3 N.A. achromats in the past year for just over 100.00 for both of them, with which to upgrade two infinity corrected trinocular AO 20 microscopes.
I realize you are in Australia and your dollar and shipping considerations are a big factor but I am in Canada and I face the majority of the same restrictions , when dealing with the U.S. Despite my proximity, I get fleeced when packages cross the border. I know that finding a second hand scope that is the right price, with reasonable shipping and available, is a bit of a search but if you choose the right used scope, the potential for upgrading is built in, whereas a routinely priced Chinese scope is going to arrive in your hands at it's peak of performance, with limited or no upgrading possible. Many of them are not infinity corrected and even some of the ones that are( such as the Zeiss , made by Motic) have a unique optical correction and tube length, so might as well not be infinity corrected because compatibility with other objectives or components is unknown and not publicized. Those Zeiss , made in China optics ,aren't even compatible with other Zeiss optics!
Clearly, from my point of view; I would always go used. Used instruments are known quantities with celebrated performance.You will get a much bigger bang for your buck and any of those older instruments will last a lifetime.
, There is one feature that buying a used scope does require, that hopefully buying a new microscope will not require and that is patience. Sometimes it just takes frequent searching and looking to find those ideal upgrades to an older system but I kind of feel that the time is well spent when compared to the time it takes to search out another more expensive new microscope ,because the first one turned out to be oversold and wasn't really adequate.

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#43 Post by gekko » Sun May 31, 2015 11:03 pm

aochronaut, thank you for your post. I agree with everything you say, with some reservations. Buying a used microscope on the internet (ebay) can be quite risky unless the seller knows what he is selling and is willing to stand behind it. I may be wrong, but my impression is that buying a used Olympus or Zeiss microscope in excellent working condition and equipped (or upgraded later) with high grade optics (apo or fluorite objectives and an achromatic or achromatic-aplanatic condenser) would require Astyanax to multiply his allotted budget for the microscope (as I understand it, about $500 to $700) by several fold. If he is willing to do that, and even if he is not**, I think he would do well to first check locally (e.g. representatives of Olympus and Zeiss, local universities, and, if they exist, local microscope/telescope shops, and even with colleagues at CSIRO) to see what can be had locally at what price. This way he would know what he is getting. Buying new allows him to return the item, if defective, under warranty. Buying used from another country will entail possible high shipping charges, and if a return turns out to be required, even higher shipping charges and customs declarations, etc. Having stated those cautions, I repeat that I fully agree with what you said above. My 2-cents' worth.
_____________________________
**Astyanax, my sincere apologies for speaking of you in the third person as though you were not "in the room": no disrespect intended! It is just that I started to respond to apochronaut's post and didn't know how to change that after I started.

The QCC
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#44 Post by The QCC » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:00 am

With apologies to Astyanax:

I do not recommend purchasing a used microscope from an eBay seller. It is a rare seller that offers free return shipping for defective products and an ever more rare seller that will accept returns because the buyer was not happy with the product.

If buying on-line I highly recommend Amazon or Walmart. They both have no questions asked return policies with free return shipping.
Amazon carries most of the popular Amscope and OMAX microscopes.

I receive letters from Zeiss Canada, Nikon Canada and Olympus Canada announcing sales of used and demo microscopes. I have requested prices from all three of the Canadian companies. As soon as they find out I am an individual purchaser and not a company I am dropped like a hot potato.
The major microscope manufacturers are not interested in personal sales

The Amscope microscope you are looking at is made in China and available in Australia under a different name and number from Microscope Shop Com AU

You could even buy directly from China through AliExpress . Select your country and currency, then search for amscope trinocular microscope.
AliExpress accepts PayPal and has an excellent buyer protection plan

Yes, I have purchased a microscope, camera, lap disks and other things from AliExpress.

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#45 Post by Astyanax » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:40 am

Hi gekko, apochronaut, 75rr and QCC
Once again you guys are great to "listen" to; no apologies needed. I have learned a lot from our discussions. No apologies needed for going off on tangents, its "all good". The link to Koehler illumination setup is spot on. Also important for photomicrography. Presumably the microscope in the sample presentation has had the filament focused and centered on the substage condenser iris. Older units like my old vanox had these adjustments too. Without them (or without the centered focused filament) the process is nearly useless. I suspect that the new Chinese scopes don't have the adjustment and hopefully they are precentered/focused. None of the Oriental suppliers including AmScope have a clue about this.

I was not aware that the T720 was available here (Sydney) thanks for the link QCC. Unfortunately the local resellers add a massive $AU300 markup in this case for doing nothing and as Melbourne is in the "sticks" as it were, literally no one having a unit set up for inspection.

I have not pursued AliExpress much, they never give you prices and when you request them, respondents rarely provide much sense.

Further with I also found The sunny XY-B2 Biol Scope and a nex lower level unit - a N-800M have nice specs and look well made with less plastic and more metal, but they will set me back $US1050-$US1200. Fro what its worth I have attached the guff on the M800M.

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#46 Post by 75RR » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:04 pm

I was not aware that the T720 was available here (Sydney) thanks for the link QCC. Unfortunately the local resellers add a massive $AU300 markup in this case for doing nothing and as Melbourne is in the "sticks" as it were, literally no one having a unit set up for inspection.
A few suggestions if you do not mind.

You could insist on a look, I doubt they have people queuing to buy them.

Alternatively you could ask if they sold any locally and go and have a look.
(In the same vein see what local colleges and universities are using and who they get them from)

See what guarantee they provide. Return or replacement would be useful.

Work out how much shipping and import duty is when calculating a bargain from abroad.

Keep an eye out locally for a good used Zeiss, Leitz/Leica, Olympus or Nikon.
There is no rush - you have 3 to 4 years to set it up. ;)

P.S. The T720 should last longer than that but I would be very surprised if you got 10 years out of it.
Last edited by 75RR on Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#47 Post by gekko » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:48 pm

If I may repeat a couple of points mentioned earlier in this tread. Sorry for the excessive wordiness.

Koehler illumination. I don't know what that means with respect to LED light. It would be instructive (maybe) to look at the Zeiss, Olympus, and Nikon sites which may show what they use in their new microscopes. I don't know if the Chinese scopes use similar techniques or not. I know, for example, that Nikon says that their (1970's I think) Labophot uses Koehler illumination. In that microscope, the tungsten-halogen bulb is "prefocused", but there is a permanently installed diffusing glass between the lamp and the field diaphragm. I suspect (but I don't know) that many so-called Koehler systems are so called only because they have a field diaphragm, the lighting otherwise being diffuse.

Infinity optics. aphochronaut has already mentioned this. Other things being equal, infinity systems have no advantage over 160-mm tube length systems other than allowing inserting thick filters, etc., above the objectives without changing the effective tube length. They have the disadvantage that they restrict the use of objectives other than those designed for that microscope (unless one is willing to risk poor image quality). "Other things being equal", well what I don't know is whether the objectives used on infinity systems are of newer better design than those for finite systems of otherwise similar microscopes or not. No technical reason why they should or should not be. Thus a 160-mm microscope will allow you to use an Olympus apochromat and get the full resolution (if you also use a corrected condenser of adequate NA). Having said that [sorry for all the complications], condensers are often NOT interchangeable mechanically (they may not fit a different microscope). In addition, the Olympus objective will require a compensating Olympus eyepiece and projection lens.

apochronaut
Posts: 6327
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#48 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:04 pm

I've bought a lot on ebay( hundreds of transactions) and have rarely had a problem. Yes, that takes some observation and diligence. As in buying any thing else, you have to ask questions. If the answers don't come, don't buy. American Optical, Bausch & Lomb, Leitz ,Olympus, Meiji, Nikon, PZO, Reichert, Unitron, Vickers, Wild, Zeiss all made microscopes between about 1965 and 2000, of a quality those current low to medium priced Chinese microscopes can only hope to be......and most of them are still upgradeable, especially AO( infinity corrected), Leitz, Zeiss,Nikon and Olympus. Most Vickers were pretty high end to start with and the B & L Balplan can be fitted with some planapo objectives for a surprisingly low price.
Oddly, some companies microscopes; Vickers, PZO, Bausch & Lomb, Reichert and the innovator in infinity optics, American Optical despite their overall first rate quality go for very low prices. Just a sampling of what's available right now. AO 120, 5 hole nosepiece, 3 objectives,100 watt: 300.00 + ship : AO 10, trinocular 5 hole nosepiece, 3 objective 166.00 + ship : AO 10, trinocular, 4 objectives, 85.00 + ship : AO 110, 4 objective, 120.00+ ship : a nice Vickers, 4 objective microplan 195.00 + ship . : a very nice Vickers photoplan( will need some objectives to set it up as a biological scope) 100 watt, plus 200 watt vertical illuminator , 500.00+ ship(add 400.00 worth of Vickers objectives, which are easily available and this is a 4,000.00 microscope. : Leitz sm-lux 5 hole, 450.00 + ship . : Olympus Vanox trinocular 750.00+ ship( will need biological objectives). : Olympus CH-2, 4 objective trinocular , 480.00 + ship.
Some of these are buy it now and some are auction style , so some of the prices might escalate a bit but I think it is clear what level of value is available on the second hand market. Line any of those up against what the same money would buy in a Chinese microscope. Better still , consider how many of those will still be working in 10 years or whether they will be in a landfill, like 90% of the Chinese microscopes will be.
...... just a note to Gekko, related to the last post.
Some microscopes ended up having the same or similar dovetails in the condenser carrier, so in a limited way you can move them around. Nikon for instance, I am pretty sure is the same as AO.
An infinity corrected optical system is useless unless it encompasses an extended system. That's the whole point. That's what makes the Zeiss China infinity microscope, with it's one microscope only system, so ridiculous and just a marketing ploy, yet the AO system so wonderful. I can put an analyser from an AO 10 made in 1964 into a Leica Diastar, made in 2000 and it will work . I can even move the objectives over from one to the other and they will work, as long as I adjust the stage on the 10 ,in order to accept the 45mm D.I.N. objectives. Another bonus, with the AO correction system, is you can add in and use a teaching attachment as a camera mount. You don't need a trinocular head. A telephoto prime camera lens can be used as a photo tube lens, or in fact the image can be sent straight to the sensor, with a litttle crop factor added in the camera. AO teaching attachments often show up for 50.00 on ebay. AO is the only truly modular microscope system. Between the introduction of the infinity corrected optical path in the early 60's to it's evolution through the Reichert research microscopes to the Leica infinity systems, an unbelievable array of components will work on a diverse array of instruments. Sometimes it takes a little fiddling to get a fit but it is remarkable, that so many components can work on so many models of seemingly diverse microscopes due to the optical compatibility of the infinity system.

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#49 Post by gekko » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:01 pm

I am with you, apochronaut, but clearly you have the deep knowledge and expertise to know what goes with what, what is a good deal and what isn't, as well as the desire to assemble or upgrade the microsocopes with different parts to achieve your aim. If I tried this I would spend a lot of money on parts that don't fit together :) .

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#50 Post by 75RR » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:59 am

I am with you, apochronaut, but clearly you have the deep knowledge and expertise to know what goes with what, what is a good deal and what isn't, as well as the desire to assemble or upgrade the microsocopes with different parts to achieve your aim. If I tried this I would spend a lot of money on parts that don't fit together :) .
With the problem of buying used equipment on ebay from abroad basically being the expense of shipping it back to the seller should that prove necessary ( I am assuming one only buys from sellers willing to accept returns) it occured to me that a local (yes I know Australia is a big country) buy might suit.

Ebay naturally springs to mind but not every thing for sale is to be found there.
Auctions are a viable alternative source of microscopes.

Used Equipment → Microscopes / Light Sources → Compound - Upright / Inverted ... good luck!

or you can just search for Zeiss ;)

http://www.techtrader.com.au/index.html
http://www.techtrader.com.au/shop/categ ... t-inverted
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#51 Post by Astyanax » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:44 am

Thanks 75rr
The links are great. I'll follow up techtrader (they did not come up in any of my searches). Unfortunately they are in Sydney about 500 miles from Melbourne. If the prices are reasonable they should be worth a look. I found that apart from Amazon and eBay, the shipping costs are ~$us250 plus even if I can afford the scope.
The suppliers in Melbourne only have low end microscope packages, I saw one that was prepared to unpack a unit out of the box and what they called Koehler was just a diaphragm with a diffuser (filament unfocused not even centered properly). I suspect that many of the Chinese suppliers call this Koehel and don't provide enough detail in the reply.
I found that most direct China suppliers are vague or non-committal about return costs or even returns.
So its either eBay or Amazon, or AmScope for the cheaper scopes - I think I am going to abandon looking any more it is frustratingly wasteful of time. To be honest I am not a fan of used scopes either, I have seen lots of mechanical issues (backlash difficult to clean surfaces etc) over the years.

Gekko's and Apochronaut: thanks for your words of wisdom. You guys have a profound knowledge of microscopy and there is always something that I have learned from these invaluable discussions.

Techtader looks promising. I'll keep you posted.

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#52 Post by gekko » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:23 pm

Best of luck! Two additional thing to remember if buying used: (1) Nikon (and probably other brands as well) used in some of their models plastic (nylon?) gears for fine focus, which sometimes crack (I've had one of those and had to discard the scope-- a replacement gear that cost as much as the scope itself resulted in unpleasantly rough focusing). (2) Objectives can delaminate (especially Zeiss, and especially complex constructions such as apochromats). So do ask plenty of questions. If you can stretch your allotted budget, you might consider getting a new Meiji (not cheap, but excellent). Of the Chinese, Motic seem to have a good reputation. Here is a link to someone outifit's (probably biased) opinions: https://www.microscopeworld.com/t-shop- ... rands.aspx
They sell microscopes and, if my memory is right, they may be a good place to consider buying from, especially since you live in Australia (a vague, hazy memory of someone posting something about that on this forum a long time ago). It doesn't hurt to look and enquire.

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#53 Post by Astyanax » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:49 pm

Thanks for the advice and link gekko
motic looks reasonable.
I'll keep you posted.

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#54 Post by Astyanax » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:21 pm

Hi GEKKO and 75RR
After your suggestion 75RR, I found TechTrader in Sydney very helpful. They have sent me some images taken with a 4x obj.
and the XSZ-XY SERIES scope (Koehler fully adjustable) and a more basic model EX20. XY series scope is configured for phase contrast and has no 4x objective. However, they obtained some images taken with a 4x obj. and presumably with a Abbe condenser. They are reasonable but still Koehler illumination could not be set and images on both scopes exhibit a bright spot and also some focal fall off at the edges as GEKKO described. I asked them to grab an image of a stage micrometer as well as a section of something looks like plant tissue.
They are going to try a couple more options one with a 2x objective. Hopefully Monday!
However, thinking back GEKKO, to your success with the phase cont. condenser, maybe that's something they can reproduce with the SXZ-XY series scope. Presumably when you tried it you used a standard 4x achro plan obj. The XY series scope is fully adjustable and they are willing mix and match (swap the phase objectives for plans).

GEKKO are you able to provide additional information about your successful test?

I also tested Microsoft's ICE. It's great with Win 8.1, but disappointing with Win 7. It works but the display images flicker badly when stitching is engaged. Photoshop is pretty good too and only a tad slower.

Please see the test images from the xy series scope supplied by TechTrader. Those from the more basic EX20 are almost identical.
Attachments
XY_2 (1)a.jpg
XY_2 (1)a.jpg (46.06 KiB) Viewed 13629 times
XY_1a.jpg
XY_1a.jpg (9.09 KiB) Viewed 13629 times

apochronaut
Posts: 6327
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#55 Post by apochronaut » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:57 pm

Sorry, to pipe up again but my interest is in helping. When I look at a photograph taken through a microscope , I judge it based on what can be done with a point and shoot camera available to anyone, through an eyepiece that may or not be clean , hand held and done with a minimum of fuss. If an image is as good or better than that , then it is something worth building on because a photomicrograph shot in the fashion I just described can be very good and for less than 50.00 worth of equipment.
I'm quite confused with the picture you have supplied. The microscope system itself looks pretty decent, as long as the basic 4 objective planachro microscope with a trinocular tube is less than 800.00. It has the possibility of upgrading it with phase contrast, dark field and fluorescence, so potentially it could be a good system.The data specifies plan objectives. However, the image provided is supposed to be of plant cells with a 4X plan objective? No plan objective worth the name would have that kind of curvature of field, and I am confused what kind of cells those are that are that big with a 4X objective? The resolution on the picture is pretty bad, so is it possible they used digital magnification?

User avatar
gekko
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Durham, NC, USA.

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#56 Post by gekko » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:08 pm

Hi Astyanax,
Some points, if I may (sorry, again this turned out to be much more rambling that I intended):
(1) I think apochronaut's comments (both the earlier ones and those above) are excellent.
(2) I would not consider any images supplied by a microscope seller as reliably representing what the microscope can do. There are far too many variables, the most important of which may well be the knowledge and expertise of the person who took the photos and the care with which they were taken. In addition to aphochronaut's comments, I would say that it is impossible to tell the quality of the image at such a small size.
(3) My mentioning my Nikon Phase condenser was simply to indicate which condenser gave me uniform Koehler with my 4x objective. The fact that it was a phase condenser is a red herring.
(4) Remember that, other things being equal, a 4x will give significantly better resolution that a 2x objective of lower NA.
(5) I think it may be good if you tell us exactly your aim: what you are after in the final analysis. That it is getting high resolution images of wood sections is clear but rather vague. Specifically, do you want to make large prints, and if so, how large? If not, how are you going to display them? That will have bearing, I think, on the choice of optics and camera.
(6) Just to reiterate what has been mentioned earlier: obviously, for the best results (price no object), you would use the highest NA plan apochromat (40x or higher) practicable, and stitch the images if necessary. Practically, however, compromise is necessary. If you can get a finite-tube-length used microscope in good condition, then you can upgrade the objective that you intend to use to a planapo (it may cost as much as the microscope itself, but, given enough time, you can snag one at an affordable price-- I know because I've done it). If you consider going this route, I would consider an Olympus BH2 from a reliable ebay seller, one who deals mainly with microscopes, and has 100% feedback, and one that answers all your questions adequately. There are a few who know what they are selling. You can then slowly upgrade an objective and the condenser. A Nikon Optiphot is an alternative but make sure the fine focus gear is undamaged; may also be necessary with the Olympus). With Zeiss, there is more potential of delamination in the optics, especially for apo objectives, but that can be checked for. Can you get a new Chinese microscope and upgrade the optics (say the 4x or other objective) to a planapo? Yes, provided that it is not infinity corrected. You can buy a new 160-mm microscope, and then try to snag a 4x (if that is what you are after) planapo (Olympus, Nikon, etc.), but remember that you will need matching (appropriate compensating) eyepieces/projection lens (except for Nikon where with their CF system, no compensating lenses should be used).
(7) I will try to take photos using my 4x objective to check resolution (if I can), and evenness of illumination with my Abbe, phase-contrast (uncorrected or poorly corrected Abbe type), my flip-down achromatic, and my highly corrected DIC condenser, with and without a diffusing filter below the condensers. This will take a few days.
(8) The most important starting point, though, is your answer to point (5).

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#57 Post by 75RR » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:29 pm

Thought you would have been tempted by at least one of these!

Image
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#58 Post by Astyanax » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:07 am

Resubmitted with minor corrections: Thanks for your responses apocromat, gekko and 75rr
The easy response to being tempted by the used trinoculars from TechTrader - yes! but totally out of my affordability range there is nothing less than $AU4000.00.
The images I posted were reduced from ~300-500Kb to allow me to post them. (I'm still getting used to the site).
As far as I was told by the dealer, they used a 5Mb (usb, Tucsen) with a 0.5x reduction lens. Because the XY series scope was configured for phase, and there was no 4x objective, they must have substituted a 4x plan achro, at least that's what I asked them to try. They did not say which condenser was used.
To answer your question to point 5 gekko. The images are for viewing on a screen and for pp presentations. I am a stickler for high resolution of low power images to show variations of fine detail over a large area. i.e., I would like to view images of ~5-10mm (lineal) or so from prepared slides. That detail can also be achieved with higher power albeit with a much reduced field of view. Maybe I am asking for too much. I will attempt to post an old B/W image of a typical slide and magnification I am aiming for. (Resolution was cut down to post it.) [scale bar=0.5mm]

To cut a long story short. TechTrader is offering the XY-Series scope with alternate plan optics: 4, 10, and 40x less an oil immersion 100x for $Au1000.00 delivered to Melbourne. The scope is their shop demo unit but they are still offering it with a 1yr warranty (whatever that means). (similar unit with plan optics, not phase, are going for $Au2500 delivered from Chinese dealers or agents (normally they ask you to pay to a person's name with Western Union or such like). One would need to be born yesterday to go along with something like that. Supposedly more reputable dealers are asking ~$1000 more for payments using paypal. TechTraders deal seems reasonable. The more basic, brand new EX20 scope, is going for $Au1200.00 delivered it comes with inf. corrected plan acro. objectives. I can post the flyer for it if need be.

From what you guys have been saying it may be an idea to stay away from inf. corrected objectives. Obviously I will have to find out what exactly what TechTrader is going to replace the phase optics with before making any decisions.
Another option is to buy a cheaper Chinese scope and fit it with good optics. However I don't know enough about mixing and matching to do that. As it happens I own a set of excellent objectives and eyepieces from a sale when the CSIRO, Forest Products Division closed down. Unfortunately all the scopes were relinquished to other Divisions and only basically crumbs were left. I think they were good crumbs and bought them for next to nothing. Please see the attached image. The top row are Olympus lenses where the 40x on the right 0.65 and 0.17. The 4x objective (bottom row) is from my workhorse Nikon SK E. The Nikon lenses have the same numbers with a plan prefix rather than PO prefix. I suspect that the PO is hopefully plan polarizing (checked it out they are probably not plan only stress corrected for polarization work)? or maybe semi plan. When I swap them in the Nikon, SK E, the outer edges are not as uniformly in focus as the Nikon's.....
I am sure you guys are sick of my story. So for the sake of not wearing out my welcome I look forward to your valuable comments.
Attachments
IMG_0041.JPG
IMG_0041.JPG (107.41 KiB) Viewed 13614 times
Acacia implexa-TS.jpg
Acacia implexa-TS.jpg (356.29 KiB) Viewed 13614 times
Last edited by Astyanax on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Crater Eddie
Posts: 1858
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:39 pm
Location: Illinois USA

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#59 Post by Crater Eddie » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:15 am

For posting high resolution or large images, you can upload them to an image hosting site then put a link to it in your message instead of using attachments.
Olympus BH-2 / BHTU
LOMO BIOLAM L-2-2
LOMO POLAM L-213 / BIOLAM L-211 hybrid
LOMO Multiscope (Biolam)
Cameras: Canon T3i, Olympus E-P1 MFT, Amscope 3mp USB

User avatar
Astyanax
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 4:43 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Image quality of AmScope microscope via the trinocular tube

#60 Post by Astyanax » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:05 am

Many thanks Crater Eddie.. Any suggestions for suitable image hosting sites?

Post Reply