Vibration problems

[jfiresto]

I found the anti-shock feature of my Olympus E-PL1, the light version of your P2, was surprisingly effective. My camera has the same shutter, so its kick/camera-weight ratio should be even greater. I took 1/10~1s exposures on a stereo microscope at 32X total magnification with a rigid Wild photo tube and a solid Leitz ISO-38 to c-mount adapter.

It took me a few days to get crisp images. The last thing I finally noticed was the camera expressing its "views" about my Gothic lighting by slyly increasing the ISO sensitivity and imitating Vincent Monet. My specimens do not move so I fixed the camera at ISO 200 – which is pleasantly fast to someone who used to shoot Kodachrome 64.

Most find the shock is greatest at intermediate shutter speeds. You might find happiness with longer exposures (or shorter).

The E-P5 and later models have a much gentler shutter that only needs 10–20 ms to settle down ("0 second anti-shock"). An E-PL7 is probably all you would need for a microscope. I recently bought a lightly used body off ebay for 125 euros, shipped. If I am ever in your area, I can bring one we could try.

[MichaelG.]

Very happy to continue the discussion ... It’s a problem which many of us have to face, and this seems a good place to share ideas and experiences.

Away from the specifics of 75RR’s illustrated system [see the opening post] there are several ‘touchstones’ for anyone designing/building a system:

In the early days of photomicrography, rigs were often built as a horizontal ‘optical bench’ and required more space that most of us have available.

Zeiss and Leitz were the first to use small cameras attached to [or detached from] a microscope.
... It is well worth looking at their designs from the 1940s
Cameras were either rigidly mounted to the microscope, or decoupled from it by a light-trap arrangement [which, of course requires a structure to support the camera]

Focal Plane shutters were known to cause difficulty, so Compur style leaf shutters were frequently included.

By the 1960s many camera manufacturers were offering microscope attachments for their 35mm system cameras, but these ofer a far-from-ideal solution, and practitioners often resorted to either electronic flash, or open-shutter exposures. [the fancy camera body thus being used as a simple film holder]

Microscope manufacturers were keen to adopt ‘digital’ for all the obvious reasons ... but those systems have electronic shutters.

We hobbyists have also embraced digital but, in the quest for increased resolution and best value-for-money, some of us are fitting DSLR and Mirrorless system cameras to our microscopes ... and that is where our problems start.

We need either to engineer the mechanics to be unmoved by the shutter action, or to dispense with the mechanical shutter.
The Micro Four Thirds system is wonderful ( I love my Lumix G1 ) but that mechanical shutter [*], operating in a lightweight body, attached flexibly to a high magnification optical system, is a recipe for disaster.

For ‘direct projection’ use with a ‘kicking’ focal plane shutter: I believe we need to integrate the camera body as firmly as possible into the microscope.

A damper or vibration absorber only works when there is relative motion
... and by that time it’s already too late !!

MichaelG.

[*]
See the video that I linked in this previous post: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9273&p=82198&hilit= ... ter#p82198

[jfiresto]

... The Micro Four Thirds system is wonderful ( I love my Lumix G1 ) but that mechanical shutter [*], operating in a lightweight body, attached flexibly to a high magnification optical system, is a recipe for disaster....

I think Olympus has always shown more interest than Panasonic in reducing mechanical shutter shock. I wish I could get 400X magnification and run more demanding tests, but my microscopes are just a few years too old.

[MichaelG.]

I think Olympus has always shown more interest than Panasonic in reducing mechanical shutter shock.

Very likely ^^^

I was, however, careful to write:

... ( I love my Lumix G1 ) but that mechanical shutter [*] ...

when citing it as an example.

Progress is certainly being made.

MichaelG.

[janvangastel]

I have been using Panasonic 4/3 camera's for years. I ran into the shutter shock problem while digiscoping: photographing birds with a digital camera behind the telescope eyepiece. My first camera did not have an electronic shutter and below 1/500 shutter speed vibration was a problem but since more then 5 years they (so the newer ones) do have an electronic shutter. I use the Panasonic Lumix GX7 for digiscoping and the Panasonic Lumix G9 for bird photography with a telelens and for photographing through the microscope. Both have an excellent electronic shutter causing no vibration at all, even at shutter speeds of less then 1/8 second.

[MichaelG.]

Thanks, Jan ... very useful info.

MichaelG.

[jfiresto]

I think Olympus has always shown more interest than Panasonic in reducing mechanical shutter shock.

Very likely ^^^

I was, however, careful to write:

... ( I love my Lumix G1 ) but that mechanical shutter [*] ...

when citing it as an example.

If his Olympus is giving the OP grief, my gut tells me a Panasonic mechanical shutter might not be an improvement. Did Panasonic ever tame their mechanical shutters or did they resort to using an electronic shutter at exposure times when it would most help?

[MichaelG.]

If his Olympus is giving the OP grief, my gut tells me a Panasonic mechanical shutter might not be an improvement. Did Panasonic ever tame their mechanical shutters or did they resort to using an electronic shutter at exposure times when it would most help?

.
I’m sure you are correct ... but that wasn’t the reason I mentioned it
My post was for the wider discussion, not specifically related to 75RR’s difficulties:

Very happy to continue the discussion ... It’s a problem which many of us have to face, and this seems a good place to share ideas and experiences.

Away from the specifics of 75RR’s illustrated system [see the opening post] there are several ‘touchstones’ for anyone designing/building a system:
< etc. >

MichaelG.
.

P.S. ___ I think Jan has answered your second point.

[jfiresto]

My post was for the wider discussion, not specifically related to 75RR’s difficulties.

If my only experience was with Panasonic's older mechanical shutters, for example, with the shutter in the DMC-G6, nothing could stop me from going fully electronic. Perhaps mechanical shutters have been something of a lost cause at Panasonic – I do not know – but Olympus has been cultivating theirs. Possibly some might need the latter's particular advantages (if any) or just might be hopeless Olympus fans.

P.S. ___ I think Jan has answered your second point.

IIRC, the G6's electronic shutter can take no more than a 1 s exposure. Like Jan's GX7 and G9? I am curious about Panasonic's latest models, other makes, and how they would help here.

[janvangastel]

I have tried with the G9 and the limit is also 1 second maximum exposure time with electronic shutter. I didn't know that, because I never needed such a long exposure time. Most of the time it's less then 1/100. I always have my ISO at 800 and only lower that momentarily when reaching the high limit.

[75RR]

.
Shutter page from manual.
.

[jfiresto]

Thank you for that. The G9 shutter can be both fully electronic and electronic at the start. The latter could be the business at low-ish magnifications and for long exposures.

[MichaelG.]

.
Shutter page from manual.
.

Wow ... I wonder what practical use there might be for 1/32000th second exposure

and what frame rate it can achieve in Electronic Shutter mode ?

MichaelG.

[Hobbyst46]

Maybe a way to differentiate between camera-created vibrations and microscope-created vibrations is to compare the DSLR/mirrorless camera with an eyepiece camera, on the same microscope. Since the eyepiece camera has no shutter at all.
Never tried it myself - worth trying.

[Scarodactyl]

It isn't too difficult to get a dslr or mirrorless camera where this isn't an issue, and though less fun it is probably less expensive and time-intensive than buying a nice separate stand and futzing with isolation. I use a canon t6 which has no problems with rigid attachment and costs under 200 bucks on eBay--not insanely cheap but not too bad, and useful for all sorts of shooting.

[janvangastel]

and what frame rate it can achieve in Electronic Shutter mode ?

I don't think frame rate is affected when recording video. I can't find anything about that in the manual.

[75RR]

It isn't too difficult to get a dslr or mirrorless camera where this isn't an issue, and though less fun it is probably less expensive and time-intensive than buying a nice separate stand and futzing with isolation. I use a canon t6 which has no problems with rigid attachment and costs under 200 bucks on eBay--not insanely cheap but not too bad, and useful for all sorts of shooting.

Agree that Electronic First Shutter is the way to go as is buying used - huge price difference for what are in many cases practically new in box cameras.

Personally I am making life unnecessarily difficult by being greedy and wanting both EFS and 4000k video in an affordable package for my (maybe one day) upgrade.

Would like to hear from happy EFS + 4000k video camera owners as to what they are using.

[hans]

A damper or vibration absorber only works when there is relative motion
... and by that time it’s already too late !!

Regarding isolation, I guess I was thinking more in terms of controlling where the relative motion occurs to balance the effects of sample-objective and camera-microscope motion. It seems like the main problem with rigid attachment is that the whole microscope+camera moves, and even if it moves much less than the camera would alone, any resulting relative motion between the sample (especially wet mount) and objective is magnified optically. Say 100X objective and ~1.5X direct relay to the sensor for something like micro 4/3 or APS-C. However much you need to move the camera relative to the direct-projected image to get noticeably blur, it takes only 1/150th that distance moving the sample relative to the objective to get the same blur. So yes, isolation allows more motion of the camera relative to the microscope, but if isolation can minimize sample-objective motion without getting to the point where camera-microscope motion is the main cause of blur, that may be a good trade-off to make. And in the case of afocal, where theoretically only the angle matters if accurately focused to infinity, the trade-off could be even more beneficial.

Maybe a way to differentiate between camera-created vibrations and microscope-created vibrations is to compare the DSLR/mirrorless camera with an eyepiece camera, on the same microscope. Since the eyepiece camera has no shutter at all.

In my case the blur seemed fairly consistent across repeated shots, which I was taking as evidence that camera shutter was at fault. Another interesting test would be to rotate the camera 90 deg and see if the direction of blur stays the same relative to the shutter/sensor.

[75RR]

Sort of update.

Used 8 second anti shock + shutter release cable - looking through the eyepieces there is strong vibration on activation, the calm long 8 second wait and then two very marked vibrations (which seemed to be 2 or 3 times more violent than on activation) at the end.

Even with the anti-shock there is just too much vibration - this is a clear case of the need to isolate cameras without at least EFS (electronic first shutter) from the microscope

unless the focus is on taking video, in which case shutter vibration is not a problem in any camera.
-

[LouiseScot]

Sort of update.

Used 8 second anti shock + shutter release cable - looking through the eyepieces there is strong vibration on activation, the calm long 8 second wait and then two very marked vibrations (which seemed to be 2 or 3 times more violent than on activation) at the end.

Even with the anti-shock there is just too much vibration - this is a clear case of the need to isolate cameras without at least EFS (electronic first shutter) from the microscope

unless the focus is on taking video, in which case shutter vibration is not a problem in any camera.
-

Hiya
I realise this thread is a few months old but wondered if you managed to sort the vibration problem? I had similar issues when setting up my rail-based microscope with a Canon 550d/T2i and with a 40x objective - for focus stacking. I haven't had any issues before with trinocular fixed microscopes. Anyway, I tried various combinations of remote control and time delay on the rail system. In the end I got the best results using usb tethering with Canon utilities and live view. The rail software lets me put a delay in between movements and exposures. I'm not familiar with your Olympus but I assume it has live view? If it works in a similar way it should help reduce vibrations. My Canon has a mirror as well as the shutter, of course. I'd quite like to get a mirrorless camera but I need the wired shutter release from the rail controller.
Louise

[Hobbyst46]

I'd quite like to get a mirrorless camera but I need the wired shutter release from the rail controller.

Many of the older Canon mirrorless cameras do not support tethering. The M50 and R are exceptions, I do not know to what extent.

[LouiseScot]

I'd quite like to get a mirrorless camera but I need the wired shutter release from the rail controller.

Many of the older Canon mirrorless cameras do not support tethering. The M50 and R are exceptions, I do not know to what extent.

I believe the current Canon mirrorless cameras support tethering via usb. However, that's not the issue for me. The MJKZZ rail I'm using needs the wired shutter release connection which isn't available on the Eos M range. It might be possible to connect the rail output to a bluetooth interface but I'll just keep using the 550d for now

Louise

[75RR]

I realise this thread is a few months old but wondered if you managed to sort the vibration problem?

Hi Louise. Gave up on the idea of a rigid connection between the camera and the microscope with my Olympus E-P2,

it would have been quite convenient but it is not worth the extra vibration. Have returned to my trusty tripod :)

[LouiseScot]

I realise this thread is a few months old but wondered if you managed to sort the vibration problem?

Hi Louise. Gave up on the idea of a rigid connection between the camera and the microscope with my Olympus E-P2,

it would have been quite convenient but it is not worth the extra vibration. Have returned to my trusty tripod

Live view not helpful? I'm actually surprised you've had such problems when it's normally straightforward to put a proper camera on a microscope.

Louise

[75RR]

I realise this thread is a few months old but wondered if you managed to sort the vibration problem?

Hi Louise. Gave up on the idea of a rigid connection between the camera and the microscope with my Olympus E-P2,

it would have been quite convenient but it is not worth the extra vibration. Have returned to my trusty tripod :)

Live view not helpful? I'm actually surprised you've had such problems when it's normally straightforward to put a proper camera on a microscope.

Louise

Even a little vibration will a marked negative effect at high magnification high resolution.

[LouiseScot]

Live view not helpful? I'm actually surprised you've had such problems when it's normally straightforward to put a proper camera on a microscope.

Louise

Even a little vibration will a marked negative effect at high magnification high resolution.
[/quote]

True - but what magnification are you using? My Canon has been ok with a 40x objective. I don't have a larger objective for the rail system but I've imaged at 60x on my fixed microscope (though I'll have to check back as to whether I had any problems at that mag. but I don't think I did). I've been doing focus stacks on my rail system with the Canon 550d and 40x objective today and it's been ok. Does your Olympus camera support live view exposures? I believe that's the way to go!

Louise

[75RR]

True - but what magnification are you using?

I mostly use a Zeiss Planapo 63x/1.4

To be honest I am done fiddling with the rigid connection for the moment, just happy to be back taking photos again.

[LouiseScot]

True - but what magnification are you using?

I mostly use a Zeiss Planapo 63x/1.4

To be honest I am done fiddling with the rigid connection for the moment, just happy to be back taking photos again.

OK, no worries! Your Zeiss 63x images I've seen before are awesome!
Louise

[hans]

Even a little vibration will a marked negative effect at high magnification high resolution.

Are the diatoms you photography with your 63X immersion objective typically clinging to either the slide or cover slip? What I have been noticing is by far the worst case seems to be free floating or loosely attached objects in a wet mount using an immersion objective. There is sort of a pumping action of the objective on the water (via the immersion oil and cover glass) that can magnify small vertical motions into much larger horizontal motions of the fluid. For example just jerking the fine focus quickly up and down by a couple um can pump objects back and forth horizontally by tens of um. I would imagine this effect would apply to shutter vibrations also.

[ImperatorRex]

Even a little vibration will a marked negative effect at high magnification high resolution.

Hi 75RR,
absolutely agree!
I have made some sample photos with a diatomae test plate using Pleurosigma angulatum to illustrate the impact of DSLR shutter vibrations.
Pls. have a look here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5930&p=91417#p91417