Swift 380T + dslr adapter

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LouiseScot
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Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#1 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:39 pm

I received the standard 2x dslr adapter from China today :) Ordered it on 17/11 via Ebay so didn't take too long. Attached it to my Canon 1100d. It took a while to figure out how best to connect it to the scope and to be parfocal with the eyepieces. In the end I used the Swift trinocular tube plus a helical focuser to give me a fine adjustment:
MyDSLR_adapt_174310.jpg
MyDSLR_adapt_174310.jpg (44.52 KiB) Viewed 4470 times
I took some images of some (now dead) pond diatoms from the other day and at 40x (same slide I previously posted some videos from :) )

The first is pretty much what I see through the eyepieces:
PondDiatoms_a_40x_3_23pc_view.jpg
PondDiatoms_a_40x_3_23pc_view.jpg (68.13 KiB) Viewed 4470 times
The next is a crop from 80% of the max display size:
PondDiatoms_a_40x_3_80pcCrop_0013.jpg
PondDiatoms_a_40x_3_80pcCrop_0013.jpg (59.87 KiB) Viewed 4470 times
I'm finding that going much bigger, and especially at 100%, the images get grainy and indistinct so not so good.
I don't think the images I'm now getting are any worse than before but at least there's no vignetting now, which is good.
I'm thinking there must be a formula that calculates the optimum image size based on camera resolution, pixel size and objective magnification? If anyone knows please pass it on to me - thanks!
By the way, on that particular slide of a small drop of pondwater, there were quite a lot of different diatom species. I've imaged most of them but I appreciate it would be better if it was a properly prepared diatom slide. I've been wondering if it might be possible to treat / clean-up the diatoms in situ somehow? I've not come across anything but it would be great if there was a way to do it!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

viktor j nilsson
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Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#2 Post by viktor j nilsson » Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:52 pm

I'm not sure if I understood your question fully, but I recommend checking out the following spreadsheet from Charles Krebs' site:

http://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relay_micro.xls

It's a very good tool for matching objectives, relay optics and camera sensors.

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#3 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:13 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:52 pm
I'm not sure if I understood your question fully, but I recommend checking out the following spreadsheet from Charles Krebs' site:

http://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relay_micro.xls

It's a very good tool for matching objectives, relay optics and camera sensors.
Hi Viktor
Thanks for that. Some explanation would be useful. Is there a reference document anywhere that you know of? How can one ascertain what the 'relay optics' magnification is? Would that be given by the apparent increase in magnification of a calibration slide, above that calculated from the objective magnification?
Many thanks
Louise
ps I'm just reading through his relay optics article. For the Swift the relay optics are a fixed part of the microscope but no information is given
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

david_b
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Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#4 Post by david_b » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:22 pm

If the first image is what you see through the eyepieces, then I would suggest there is something wrong with your setup, not related to camera/imaging.
I would expect to see much clearer, sharper images through the eyepieces.

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#5 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:26 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:39 pm
. I've been wondering if it might be possible to treat / clean-up the diatoms in situ somehow? I've not come across anything but it would be great if there was a way to do it!
I guess that "in situ" means those diatoms that dwell in the drop of water on the slide ?
Not that I have read about any such experiment but here is a preliminary thought.
1. The diatoms are in a layer of water between the glass and coverslip. So, one can let that layer suck in a chemical that will destroy the organic stuff, so the result will be clean frustules and some residual debris. The frustules will probably shift positions but hopefully stay under the coverslip.
Then rinse them by suction of distilled water.
Now arrives the big challenge: mounting.
To obtain visible diatoms in brightfield, a high refractive index mountant is needed. That mountant is usually a resin. The resin is too viscous (I believe) to "crawl" into the space between the coverslip and slide by capillary. No way out.
2. As above, but without resin, the only (relatively) available mountant is a liquid called Cinnamon Bark Oil (similar or maybe identical to Cassia oil), on which I experimented 3 years ago. It has a high RI. It will remain liquid and not solidify. The problem - it is very difficult to seal the coverslip. My solution - seal with GEL nail polish, and cure the polish with UV like manicurists do. Another problem - it is not miscible with water.
So, protocol (based on intuition, never tested):
a) Prepare the slide of favorite diatoms in water.
b) Place a drop of home bleach (say, 5% plain hypochlorite) adjacent to the coverslip rim. By means of a piece of filter paper at the opposite rim, suck the bleach into the slide. Let stand an hour. Place a drop of DW and suck it in to rinse. Repeat several times.
c) Similarly, rinse the diatoms bu sucking alcohol (ethyl alcohol) 3 times, to remove all water.
d) Suck in a drop of CBO.
e) Seal with gel nail polish and cure under UV.

Who knows - it might work... if the diatoms will agree to stay under the coverslip under these treatments...
Last edited by Hobbyst46 on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

viktor j nilsson
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Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#6 Post by viktor j nilsson » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:28 pm

I'll put a link to the accompanying article to help others:
https://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relayoptics1.html

Swift doesn't specify the magnification factor of their relay optics? That's unfortunate. Calculating magnification on sensor should give you a good indication, though.

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#7 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:39 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:26 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:39 pm
. I've been wondering if it might be possible to treat / clean-up the diatoms in situ somehow? I've not come across anything but it would be great if there was a way to do it!
I guess that "in situ" means those diatoms that dwell in the drop of water on the slide ?
Not that I have read about any such experiment but here is a preliminary thought.
1. The diatoms are in a layer of water between the glass and coverslip. So, one can let that layer suck in a chemical that will destroy the organic stuff, so the result will be clean frustules and some residual debris. The frustules will probably shift positions but hopefully stay under the coverslip.
Then rinse them by suction of distilled water.
Now arrives the big challenge: mounting.
To obtain visible diatoms in brightfield, a high refractive index mountant is needed. That mountant is usually a resin. The resin is too viscous (I believe) to "crawl" into the space between the coverslip and slide by capillary. No way out.
2. As above, but without resin, the only (relatively) available mountant is a liquid called Cinnamon Bark Oil (similar or maybe identical to Cassia oil), on which I experimented 3 years ago. It has a high RI. It will remain liquid and not solidify. The problem - it is very difficult to seal the coverslip. My solution - seal with GEL nail polish, and cure the polish with UV like manicurists do. Another problem - it is not miscible with water.
So, protocol (based on intuition, never tested):
a) Prepare the slide of favorite diatoms in water.
b) Place a drop of home bleach (say, 5% plain hypochlorite) adjacent to the coverslip rim. By means of a piece of filter paper at the opposite rim, suck the bleach into the slide. Let stand an hour. Place a drop of DW and suck it in to rinse. Repeat several times.
c) Similarly, rinse the diatoms bu sucking alcohol (ethyl alcohol) 3 times, to remove all water.
d) Suck in a drop of CBO.
e) Seal with gel nail polish and cure under UV.

Who knows - it might work... if the diatoms will agree to stay under the coverslip under these treatments...
Ok - might be worth a try with some bleach or something. The particular slide I currently have has dried out now but nothing to lose by having a go :) There is a liquid called 1-bromonaphthalene which has a RI of almost 1.66 - not sure how that compares to the cinnamon bark oil you mention? I'll look the latter up!
Thanks
Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#8 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:43 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:28 pm
I'll put a link to the accompanying article to help others:
https://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relayoptics1.html

Swift doesn't specify the magnification factor of their relay optics? That's unfortunate. Calculating magnification on sensor should give you a good indication, though.
'Calculating magnification on sensor' - how would I do that? I forgot to mention that the dslr adapter I just bought is 2x, d'uh. I imagine that's now the dominant value of the relay optics.
Thanks
Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#9 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:47 pm

david_b wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:22 pm
If the first image is what you see through the eyepieces, then I would suggest there is something wrong with your setup, not related to camera/imaging.
I would expect to see much clearer, sharper images through the eyepieces.
That first image was taken with the dslr + 2x adapter. It is close in size to what I see through the eyepieces but, yeah, is not as clear as what my eyes see.
Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

hans
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#10 Post by hans » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:05 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:39 pm
I'm finding that going much bigger, and especially at 100%, the images get grainy and indistinct so not so good. ... I've been wondering if it might be possible to treat / clean-up the diatoms in situ somehow? I've not come across anything but it would be great if there was a way to do it!
Are the diatoms resting on the slide or adhered directly to the underside of the cover glass? If they are on the slide the thickness of the water layer may explain the hazy, indistinct look. (Spherical aberration as mentioned previously.) Some improvement might be possible without actually cleaning/treating them by trying to get them to adhere directly to the cover glass. Not sure if this would work with diatoms but what I have been doing recently with amoebas is putting the drop of water directly on a cover glass and letting it sit for a while (maybe 10-20 minutes) to give time for stuff to settle out and amoebas to start crawling around on the cover glass. Then I gently lower a slide on top until the cover glass sucks up onto it from capillary action and flip it over.

Hobbyst46
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Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#11 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:20 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:39 pm
There is a liquid called 1-bromonaphthalene which has a RI of almost 1.66 - not sure how that compares to the cinnamon bark oil you mention? I'll look the latter up!
There are several liquids that have a high RI and bromonaphthalene is one of them. They are all fairly toxic and dangerous and are not easily (if at all) available on the market for non-institutional customers. CBO is a natural product, not a laboratory "chemical". I bought via Amazon or eBay. A minimum amount.
I suggested bleach, again because it is commonly available. Other chemicals are either very dangerous, or less dangerous but used heated to boiling (e. g. 30% hydrogen peroxide) and not practical for a slide+coverslip combination.

BTW, CBO strongly smells of cinnamon and should, IMO, be used in a ventilated space.

There are other possibilities. Forum member MicroBob has suggested incineration incineration of the dried diatom suspension on the coverslip (without a slide). That might also work; a potential problem, if overheated, is that diatoms deform. If it works, it is the simplest and easiest cleaning method of all. BUT, if the coverslip is on top of a slide, I am not sure how incineration can be practiced.

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Swift 380T + dslr adapter

#12 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:30 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:20 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:39 pm
There is a liquid called 1-bromonaphthalene which has a RI of almost 1.66 - not sure how that compares to the cinnamon bark oil you mention? I'll look the latter up!
There are several liquids that have a high RI and bromonaphthalene is one of them. They are all fairly toxic and dangerous and are not easily (if at all) available on the market for non-institutional customers. CBO is a natural product, not a laboratory "chemical". I bought via Amazon or eBay. A minimum amount.
I suggested bleach, again because it is commonly available. Other chemicals are either very dangerous, or less dangerous but used heated to boiling (e. g. 30% hydrogen peroxide) and not practical for a slide+coverslip combination.

BTW, CBO strongly smells of cinnamon and should, IMO, be used in a ventilated space.

There are other possibilities. Forum member MicroBob has suggested incineration incineration of the dried diatom suspension on the coverslip (without a slide). That might also work; a potential problem, if overheated, is that diatoms deform. If it works, it is the simplest and easiest cleaning method of all. BUT, if the coverslip is on top of a slide, I am not sure how incineration can be practiced.
I've ordered some cinnamon bark oil - it's cheap! I don't know that 1-bromonaphthalene is especially hazardous - it's sold as an immersion oil for fluorescence but is probably difficult to buy and relatively expensive, and apparently is 'pungent'. I've seen a related compound for sale on Ebay which has a refractive index > 1.6 but is actually a low melting point solid (melts at about body temp). Anyway, I'll see how I get on with the cinnamon oil ;) I like to try things out :)

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

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