All Systems Go - Canon 60D

[rnabholz]

For those of you who were following my adventures getting my new to me Canon 60D rigged up to my scope here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2702

Today I had the first opportunity to give it a trial run without dealing with set up issues. Below are the results of this afternoon's attempts. I think it is going to work just fine after I get a bit better tweaking settings and understanding the idiosyncrasies of the combination.

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Stentor DF 60D.JPG (62.84 KiB) Viewed 11751 times

MS 3-20-16 I.jpg (149.8 KiB) Viewed 11751 times

MS 3-20-16 II.jpg (101.08 KiB) Viewed 11751 times

MS 3-20-16 III.jpg (88.25 KiB) Viewed 11751 times

[rnabholz]

More

MS 3-20-16 IV.jpg (143.02 KiB) Viewed 11750 times

And a couple of videos. I have yet to figure out how to delete the sound on my videos, so I added some music to cover the ambient noises recorded during the capture.

[gekko]

Congratulations! Rod, those are fantastic! Well worth all the work.

[JimT]

Rod, glad you got it going. Looking forward to future posts.

[zzffnn]

Rod,

Your phone photos are as good as they can be, though I think your 60D photos are even better. I think I am seeing sharper image, more depth (dynamic range) and less noise.

One thing you may work on next, when you get to fine details at high magnification, is reducing shutter shake (and use mirror lock up to eliminate mirror shake). It seems to me that your camera is connected to scope physically, instead of camera being suspended independently from scope, like how gekko did it. Flash will also help there. Your phone camera has neither shutter shake nor mirror shake, which is one of its advantage. You may not notice shutter shake, unless you test it on test diatom slides at over NA 1.0 (fine diatom striae or dots may be missing, if you have shutter shake). Once you get rid of mirror/shutter shake, nothing will stop Rod the mighty

As for video sounds, with my camera at least, you need to choose NOT to record any sound during filming in order to mute the background noise. Such an option should be in your camera's menu (find a PDF version of it and search within that document).

[KurtM]

I reckon the acid test is what Rod'll be using a couple weeks from now for routine photomicography. I can hardly wait to see what the answer will be, and why. At any rate, well done sir! Your thread on setting it all up helped me understand things better, and for that I thank you kindly.

[rnabholz]

Congratulations! Rod, those are fantastic! Well worth all the work.

Thanks Jim and Gekko

[rnabholz]

Rod,

Your phone photos are as good as they can be, though I think your 60D photos are even better. I think I am seeing sharper image, more depth (dynamic range) and less noise.

One thing you may work on next, when you get to fine details at high magnification, is reducing shutter shake (and use mirror lock up to eliminate mirror shake). It seems to me that your camera is connected to scope physically, instead of camera being suspended independently from scope, like how gekko did it. Flash will also help there. Your phone camera has neither shutter shake nor mirror shake, which is one of its advantage. You may not notice shutter shake, unless you test it on test diatom slides at over NA 1.0 (fine diatom striae or dots may be missing, if you have shutter shake). Once you get rid of mirror/shutter shake, nothing will stop Rod the mighty

As for video sounds, with my camera at least, you need to choose NOT to record any sound during filming in order to mute the background noise. Such an option should be in your camera's menu (find a PDF version of it and search within that document).

Thanks zz.

I am watching the dynamic range question closely, as "HDR" High Dynamic Range is a big feature that the phone camera brings to the table. I am pleased at results of the crystal shots above as they stretch the histogram a bit and look pretty good.

As far as sharpness, I do think I could have been a bit more aggressive with the unsharp mask I applied to these. Canon's approach to their DSLRs has been to leave the files a bit softer than some companies expecting their customers to exercise their own preferred level of sharpening. For these I used the same unsharp mask settings I have been using for the phone files, and I think I could turn out up a bit for the camera's files.

Regarding camera shake, shooting using the live view mode means the mirror is locked up, so that part is covered, but of course the shutter could still cause a problem. I will have to ponder that a bit.

I was able to figure out the audio issue. I had reviewed the camera's menus, and did not find anything. As it turns out the menus are contextual, and the options offered depend on the mode dial setting. I had looked with the dial in Program mode. Once I set it to Movie mode, the option to record without sound was easily found.

Thanks for the insights.

Rod

[rnabholz]

I reckon the acid test is what Rod'll be using a couple weeks from now for routine photomicography. I can hardly wait to see what the answer will be, and why. At any rate, well done sir! Your thread on setting it all up helped me understand things better, and for that I thank you kindly.

We will find out together. I will say, with the issues ironed out on the set up, and some time to use the camera today, these are initial thoughts.

1. Kind of nice just to be able to throw the lever on the trinoc and have the camera in place lined up and ready to go. No matter how careful I was with the afocal mount, it could be a bit fiddly at times.

2. Using the live capture mode connected to the computer allows the files to be saved directly to the hard drive, which saves handling the SD cards and transferring files. Very nice convenience.

3. The photo bug in me really likes the control this setup gives me.

4. The delay on the laptop screen is an issue for focus in videos, but the camera screen can be used, although it is about half the size of the phone's screen.

That's it for now. More as I go.

Thanks for the interest.

Rod

[gekko]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news at this stage. Unfortunately, it looks like the 60D may not have been the best choice as, as far as I've read, its electronic first curtain shutter is not as effective in eliminating vibration as some other Canon models
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=12203
http://www.krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/
http://www.robertotoole.com/2014/01/28/ ... r-curtain/
I don't know if you want to consider exchanging it for another model or mounting the camera independently of the microscope if vibration is a problem.

[rnabholz]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news at this stage. Unfortunately, it looks like the 60D may not have been the best choice as, as far as I've read, its electronic first curtain shutter is not as effective in eliminating vibration as some other Canon models
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=12203
http://www.krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/
http://www.robertotoole.com/2014/01/28/ ... r-curtain/
I don't know if you want to consider exchanging it for another model or mounting the camera independently of the microscope if vibration is a problem.

Well, that is all news to me.

I guess I will see just how much of an issue if any that it turns out to be and make a call then.

Thanks.

Rod

[gekko]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news at this stage. Unfortunately, it looks like the 60D may not have been the best choice as, as far as I've read, its electronic first curtain shutter is not as effective in eliminating vibration as some other Canon models
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=12203
http://www.krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/
http://www.robertotoole.com/2014/01/28/ ... r-curtain/
I don't know if you want to consider exchanging it for another model or mounting the camera independently of the microscope if vibration is a problem.

Well, that is all news to me.

I guess I will see just how much of an issue if any that it turns out to be and make a call then.

Thanks.

Rod

Rod, I had assumed that you were going to use a camera you already had. When you said you bought the Canon 60D I thought that was a good choice because I thought most newer Canon DSLRs had the first curtain electronic shutter feature. But then when zzffnn commented on shutter induced vibrations, I thought I'd better check the 60D specifically, and that is when I found out and felt I should say something while there may be a possibility of returning it.

[zzffnn]

Rod,

My test diatom slide is partially damaged, but still usable. I can send you that in priority mail today, if that helps. Please message me your address again.

Some people do the following with non- EFSC cameras:
You may try mirror lock-up, second curtain sync flash and set your constant light source (from scope) to minimal (to get majority from vibration-free flash). Then put a piece of glass under condenser at exactly 45 degree to direct flash up (see photo #4 of the following article) http://www.photomacrography.net/amateur ... D/300D.htm or you can somehow remove part of your light source case /enclosure and put your flash directly behind your scope light bulb. Also do mass (weight) loading on your scope.

Pau over at the other forum did a test on 60D. gekko has provided link to his thread above. Vibration is likely severe enough - in the end he switched to 7D.

[rnabholz]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news at this stage. Unfortunately, it looks like the 60D may not have been the best choice as, as far as I've read, its electronic first curtain shutter is not as effective in eliminating vibration as some other Canon models
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=12203
http://www.krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/
http://www.robertotoole.com/2014/01/28/ ... r-curtain/
I don't know if you want to consider exchanging it for another model or mounting the camera independently of the microscope if vibration is a problem.

Well, that is all news to me.

I guess I will see just how much of an issue if any that it turns out to be and make a call then.

Thanks.

Rod

Rod, I had assumed that you were going to use a camera you already had. When you said you bought the Canon 60D I thought that was a good choice because I thought most newer Canon DSLRs had the first curtain electronic shutter feature. But then when zzffnn commented on shutter induced vibrations, I thought I'd better check the 60D specifically, and that is when I found out and felt I should say something while there may be a possibility of returning it.

While I am a bit disappointed, that has nothing to do with you providing the information, for that I am grateful.

Just my luck, nearly the only camera in the last 4 models in the mid level line NOT to have the one feature that I need.....

The camera was an eBay purchase, and realistically meets every expectation of performance for this model, so there are no grounds for return.

I of course could sell it and buy a different body. The 70D is likely a $250 upgrade. The Rebel T3i would be about $100 less, but has some handling differences that are a small issues in my non-microscopy uses for the camera. The 50D, while cheaper, does not have the articulated screen, which I have already discovered to be a highly desired feature.

Spend more or compromise.... Doesn't it always come down to that? ;^)

[rnabholz]

Rod,

My test diatom slide is partially damaged, but still usable. I can send you that in priority mail today, if that helps. Please message me your address again.

Some people do the following with non- EFSC cameras:
You may try mirror lock-up, second curtain sync flash and set your constant light source (from scope) to minimal (to get majority from vibration-free flash). Then put a piece of glass under condenser at exactly 45 degree to direct flash up (see photo #4 of the following article) http://www.photomacrography.net/amateur ... D/300D.htm or you can somehow remove part of your light source case /enclosure and put your flash directly behind your scope light bulb. Also do mass (weight) loading on your scope.

Pau over at the other forum did a test on 60D. gekko has provided link to his thread above. Vibration is likely severe enough - in the end he switched to 7D.

Thanks zz

I appreciate your kind offer, but it seems that there is enough evidence from respected sources to confirm that the issue is real.

The idea of using a flash all of the time does not appeal much to me. I was looking for less fiddly not more. That is not to say that I may play around with that method someday, I just don't want it to be a requirement in order to get quality images.

I will think through my options and make a decision.

Thanks again.

Rod

[zzffnn]

Understood Rod.

I forgot your primary scope is an AO One Ten. It may indeed be fiddly to accept a flash, even with remote control on flash and camera.

That scope's light source cannot be easily modified to accept flash behind light bulb. Its space under condenser is also pretty tight to accept a 45 degree beam splitter mirror.

I like flash myself, as I chase fast-moving small ciliates a lot. With those, flash is pretty much required to freeze motion. Uness you have the patience to wait for them to stop swimming or use methyl cellulose, plus EFSC or camera suspension or long exposure.

[gekko]

Rod, sorry to hear that you cannot return it. Does the seller have other more suitable models? If so, you might write to him through the ebay email and ask him if he is willing to exchange it if you pay the difference and shipping. Sellers are often reasonable.
Anyway, for what it's worth, a friend of mine, an amateur microscopist who has left the hobby, had a T3i and he was not happy with it and was going to replace it with the T5i when he left the hobby. He said it had many stuck pixel problems and that this was a known issue with that particular model.

[Crater Eddie]

Spend more or compromise.... Doesn't it always come down to that? ;^)

Yes. Every single time.
CE

[gekko]

Just to point out again (it was mentioned above) that supporting the camera independently of the microscope will solve the problem of shutter vibration. That is the solution I adopted in a very clumsy way. Seeing your superb craftsmanship with wood, you may consider constructing a solid support for the camera that holds it above but not touching the phototube and that allows quick attachment and removal of the camera without having to realign everything. Easier said than done for me, but I've seen the telescope related stuff you can do.

[rnabholz]

One can't help but laugh at the irony of this thread's title.....; ^)

Sometimes in hobbies the pursuit of the absolute highest level of performance becomes a distraction, and moving to the next level yields results that are very hard to see or quantify. It is at that point that I usually stop chasing the beast.

In this case, all the evidence points to this being a real issue and one that will cut to the very center of my enjoyment of this pursuit, so it must be addressed.

I have made the decision to go with the 70D, and have ordered one this morning.

Now, if anybody has a non-microscopist acquaintance that is in the market for a 60D in nearly perfect shape, please get them in touch with me as I have one for sale.

And if you happen to know of any issues with the 70D, please give me 24 hours before you tell me..... ;^)

[rnabholz]

Just to point out again (it was mentioned above) that supporting the camera independently of the microscope will solve the problem of shutter vibration. That is the solution I adopted in a very clumsy way. Seeing your superb craftsmanship with wood, you may consider constructing a solid support for the camera that holds it above but not touching the phototube and that allows quick attachment and removal of the camera without having to realign everything. Easier said than done for me, but I've seen the telescope related stuff you can do.

Thanks Gekko.

I considered that approach, but the set up of my bench doesn't lend itself well to that method, and would likely mean more fiddling around with set up than I want to do.

Thanks as always for your interest and help.

Rod

[gekko]

I think you will be happy with the 70D. Also, for an expert photomicrographer and photographer like you, you may well enjoy having separate cameras, so you can keep one camera connected to the microscope (removing it and putting it back without a lens is bound to cause dust build up on the sensor to my way of thinking). My 2 cents' worth.

4. The delay on the laptop screen is an issue for focus in videos, but the camera screen can be used, although it is about half the size of the phone's screen.

For what it's worth, I find it usually much easier and more comfortable to focus using the microscope's eyepieces than looking at the camera's LCD. However, because the field of view of my camera is smaller than what I see through the eyepiece, I sometimes have to check the LCD if the object is large.

[rnabholz]

I think you will be happy with the 70D. Also, for an expert photomicrographer and photographer like you, you may well enjoy having separate cameras, so you can keep one camera connected to the microscope (removing it and putting it back without a lens is bound to cause dust build up on the sensor to my way of thinking). My 2 cents' worth.

4. The delay on the laptop screen is an issue for focus in videos, but the camera screen can be used, although it is about half the size of the phone's screen.

For what it's worth, I find it usually much easier and more comfortable to focus using the microscope's eyepieces than looking at the camera's LCD. However, because the field of view of my camera is smaller than what I see through the eyepiece, I sometimes have to check the LCD if the object is large.

Thanks.

At my current level of photographic activity I probably can't justify keeping both, but there was a time when a back up body was always on hand.

Regarding focus process, it is really only an issue when shooting video with moving targets. My trinoc doesn't accommodate dual mode, so when the camera is rolling, I have to rely on the screens

Thanks

Rod

[gekko]

Yes. I apologize for that.

[McConkey]

Watching this topic along with your original one with great interest as I'll be I n the same boat!!
Very interesting stuff and great suggestions from people!
Great images too! Lots of detail and great colour! Job well done!

Rod - would you mind throwing up a picture of your setup (with the camera attached)? Interested in seeing the final product!

zzffnn/gekko - you mentioned suspending the camera so it is not physically connected to the scope as gekko did...is there a topic that discusses this method? As this is all new to me I had no idea the camera is suspendable!

[gekko]

zzffnn/gekko - you mentioned suspending the camera so it is not physically connected to the scope as gekko did...is there a topic that discusses this method? As this is all new to me I had no idea the camera is suspendable!

This may partially answer your question:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=89
If you have further questions about it, please don't hesitate to ask.

[rnabholz]

Watching this topic along with your original one with great interest as I'll be I n the same boat!!
Very interesting stuff and great suggestions from people!
Great images too! Lots of detail and great colour! Job well done!

Rod - would you mind throwing up a picture of your setup (with the camera attached)? Interested in seeing the final product!

zzffnn/gekko - you mentioned suspending the camera so it is not physically connected to the scope as gekko did...is there a topic that discusses this method? As this is all new to me I had no idea the camera is suspendable!

Hey McC

It's going to look almost identical to the pics with the 60D, so like this:

60D Scope Rig.jpg (168.9 KiB) Viewed 11596 times

60D Camera Rig.jpg (157.15 KiB) Viewed 11596 times

[McConkey]

Rod - i'll blame the fact that it's Monday on me not realizing you already posted pictures of your setup..duuh! Thanks for reposting though!

Gekko - exceptionally helpful link! Thankyou! Oh questions will be coming but I'll save those for my own thread! :p

[rnabholz]

Well I won't jinx myself by proclaiming All Systems Go again, but the 70D landed today and after other obligations were met had about an hour and a half to play.

I shot some quick pictures -all are single frames, and a video. They are below. I think things are looking good.

To address the driving issue of the need for the change, the difference in the movement of the camera during exposure was starkly obvious. Before I was made aware of the issue, I did notice that the 60D did impart a great deal of vibration, but thought that the EFSC would make it unimportant. The 70D was remarkably calm.

I will see how things work in the real world as I go forward with the 70D.



Gray van Egmond Mask

70D7.JPG (62.99 KiB) Viewed 11565 times

Some crystals

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[rnabholz]

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