HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

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david_b
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#31 Post by david_b » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:23 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:24 pm
Calling it 'higher resolution' without qualifiers is potentially confusing, since you would use the appropriate relay optics for each sensor.
Yes that's my understanding too.

I don't know why the replies to my question had to be so patronising.

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75RR
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#32 Post by 75RR » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:41 pm

Given equal sized sensors more pixels does means smaller, but does not tell you their size. Actual size in µm (h x w) - as opposed to these pixels must be smaller than those - is what you want.

That is the advantage of these interactive programs - they let you play around with various components until you find one that suits.

The Charles Krebs link that I posted earlier includes an xls page that gives you additional sensor size options: http://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relayoptics1.html
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

tgss
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#33 Post by tgss » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:20 pm

Hi 75RR
I'm beginning to feel guilty about hijacking Radazz's post with this but...

I agree that you need to know what the pixel size really is in order to compare it with what is needed. I guess, for me at least, the discussion boils down to the recognition that, in order to figure out what pixel size is needed, you need to know the distance in the image on the sensor that represents the limiting resolution of the system. This distance will be greater in a larger (higher magnification) image, such as is projected to a larger sensor. Hence the pixel size can be larger on a larger sensor, while preserving the same resolution as a smaller sensor with correspondingly smaller pixels, assuming the same image field is being captured. This idea is supported by both of the links you previously posted, as well as Charles Krebs' various writings and spreadsheet (iirc).
Best regards
Tom W.

MichaelG.
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#34 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:35 pm

david_b wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:23 pm
I don't know why the replies to my question had to be so patronising.
David ... Given that I probably made most of the replies to your question; I am assuming that you found them patronising ... for which I can only apologise, for that was not my intention at all.

In my defence, I can only quote your response to one of my posts:
Clearly hints are not enough. I'm afraid I need it spelled out.
... which led me to believe that things needed to be laboured a little.

I am happy to continue the discussion publicly or privately, or to just keep quiet.
... I certainly meant no offence.

MichaelG.
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MichaelG.
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#35 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:51 pm

This is directed to no-one in particular, but may be of interest to those unfamiliar with Nyquist:

It is, in my opinion, easier to understand the rule by looking at audio sampling rather than imaging.
This page illustrates the problem quite well:
https://users.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave.Marshall ... de149.html
and explains why we need to sample at at least twice the highest frequency of interest, and how aliases appear when we sample at a lower rate.

That all translates nicely into imaging when we consider what we are trying to resolve, and the pixel pitch of the sensor. ... But I must leave it to you, individually, to find suitable language to express your understanding to others [that’s the difficult bit !]

MichaelG.
.
.
Edit: Just discovered that microscopy at Berkeley uses the same simplification
http://microscopy.berkeley.edu/courses/ ... pling.html
Too many 'projects'

david_b
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#36 Post by david_b » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:58 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:35 pm
david_b wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:23 pm
I don't know why the replies to my question had to be so patronising.
David ... Given that I probably made most of the replies to your question; I am assuming that you found them patronising ... for which I can only apologise, for that was not my intention at all.

In my defence, I can only quote your response to one of my posts:
Clearly hints are not enough. I'm afraid I need it spelled out.
... which led me to believe that things needed to be laboured a little.

I am happy to continue the discussion publicly or privately, or to just keep quiet.
... I certainly meant no offence.

MichaelG.
Michael,
It wasn't the spelling out that I found patronising; as you say, that is exactly what I was asking for.
Some other posts I did find condescending though; in particular, "Oh dear!!"
Anyway, apology accepted.
Moving on, why is it that when you see photos of microscope & capture set ups of microscopists who clearly know what they're doing (including the much quoted Charles Krebs), winners of Small World and so on, they are always using DSLRs?
If the resolution of a mobile phone chip is twice that of a DSLR, why are they not using cheap Chinese industrial cameras?

jfiresto
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#37 Post by jfiresto » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:24 am

david_b wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:58 am
,,, why is it that when you see photos of microscope & capture set ups of microscopists who clearly know what they're doing..., they are always using DSLRs?...
What puzzles me a little is that they are still using cameras with mirrors. After all that effort to provide optical viewfinders, I have my doubts that any of them use them.
-John

MichaelG.
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#38 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:28 am

david_b wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:58 am
If the resolution of a mobile phone chip is twice that of a DSLR, why are they not using cheap Chinese industrial cameras?
Simply because, as I and others have already stated; resolution isn’t the be-all and end-all of the story.
The recent line of questioning has been specifically about sensor resolution, but image quality [whether for Art or Science] is about much more than resolution.

You concluded a previous thread by wondering why Microscope cameras had such low resolution, and were so expensive compared with DSLRs ...
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8226&p=72073#p72073

As you have already appreciated: Mass produced cameras [be they DSLR or mirrorless] present tremendous value-for-money, and are the sensor of choice for many of us. They come from a ‘Goldilocks zone’ where the balance of features is ‘just right’

This thread started by extolling the virtues of an alternative ... which has great merits in some areas, and deficiencies in others.
Unfortunately, perhaps ... the recent discussion has concentrated upon sensor resolution.

BUT there is much more than that to be considered.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

MichaelG.
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#39 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:07 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:51 pm
This is directed to no-one in particular, but may be of interest to those unfamiliar with Nyquist:

[…]
And here is a real-life image [my own work] of three Airy patterns, which nicely illustrates the type of analogue structure that we are sampling when we image, for example, a diatom.

pinholes in a surface-slivered mirror
pinholes in a surface-slivered mirror
2BFD1C53-DCBD-4E68-8B2D-070882840B41.jpeg (255.68 KiB) Viewed 7645 times

MichaelG.

.

Edit: for info. illumination was by HeNe laser [presumably 632.8 nm emission] and the path from mirror to target was about 15 metres.
Too many 'projects'

dlthomas
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#40 Post by dlthomas » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:58 pm

I just bought one just like this- has anyone used this with a Macbook computer? Can the images/videos go from camera to hard drive via the USB?

mintakax
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#41 Post by mintakax » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:03 pm

My usual camera is at Nikon for an upgrade and I was looking for something I could stick in an eyepiece tube of my stereo scope so I bought one of these from Amazon for $124. Honestly, for the money its pretty decent. I took some stills and some focus stacked pics with it but don't have a photo site to post them, but here are a few video clips taken out of the side port of my TMD using the HA2307.

https://vimeo.com/383815427

The sensor was pretty dirty right out of the box and these vids show the dust spots, but I have since cleaned the sensor.
I had to buy a 0.5x c-mount tube to interface with the TMD and I don't know how that affects the optics. Also I haven't bothered to figure out how to get rid of the time stamp in the vids.

mintakax
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#42 Post by mintakax » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:14 pm

dlthomas wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:58 pm
I just bought one just like this- has anyone used this with a Macbook computer? Can the images/videos go from camera to hard drive via the USB?
I've been manipulating my camera through the menu that appears through HDMI on a monitor and then taking the card to my computer. The camera came with a USB cable and a miniature CD, but I have not bothered looking at it, so I don't know if there is any Mac OS software on it or not.
I can say that if I plug the camera into a USB port on my MacBook, the card in the camera does not show up on the computer, but a window appears on the HDMI monitor that says "PC Camera". No functions seem to work on the camera when the usb is connected.

david_b
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#43 Post by david_b » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 am

dlthomas wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:58 pm
I just bought one just like this- has anyone used this with a Macbook computer? Can the images/videos go from camera to hard drive via the USB?
I had no luck at all with getting a Mac to see the Hayear camera and ended up using Windows software (IC Measure) running on Parallels.
My understanding is the resolution of the camera is reduced when connected by USB and the max photo resolution and video spec is only achievable with HDMI and writing to a card.

MicroBob
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#44 Post by MicroBob » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:00 am

Hi together,
a lot has been written in this thread about the theoretical capabilities of this camera, but have more users bought and tested it and can review the practical capabilities in use on specific microscopes? The image quality is much more than only resolution, especially in use on the microscope.The Canon 500d to 650d cameras couldn't compete with the Sony sensor cameras of the competitors in image quality but are so popular as microscope cameras because of their EFSC, swivel display and PC link.

When used on a finity microscope that uses correction eyepieces the standard 0,5x adapter will probably produce colour fringes towards the border of the image. But whether this is a real problem is the question.
I once outfitted two Nikon and Olympus DSLM bodies as microscope cameras with similar 0,3x and 0,5x adapters. The image quality when used on a Zeiss 160mm microscope was ok for documentary purposes and web images, but didn't show what the cameras can do with a better adaptation. Enclosed two images, I can't remember whether I have edited them already or not.

Bob
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mintakax
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#45 Post by mintakax » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:01 am

I have to say after living with this camera for several weeks, I can not wait for my Nikon to come back. The thing that bothers me the most about this camera is the automatic exposure. It supposedly has exposure compensation through the menu, but it doesn't function correctly. Maybe I just don't understand how to do it, but I need more exposure control than what this has. I guess for $124 its OK, but not for me.

Hobbyst46
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#46 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:23 am

mintakax wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:01 am
I have to say after living with this camera for several weeks, I can not wait for my Nikon to come back. The thing that bothers me the most about this camera is the automatic exposure. It supposedly has exposure compensation through the menu, but it doesn't function correctly. Maybe I just don't understand how to do it, but I need more exposure control than what this has. I guess for $124 its OK, but not for me.
In case that you wish to use the camera occasionally or on an another microscope: the free software "MICAM 2.0" might help, at least on Windows systems (perhaps on Mac too, I do not know). This software identifies the camera through the driver. I believe that the small CD that was bundled in with your camera contained driver software (perhaps even the Toupview software or something similar). Such software should allow manual, rather than auto exposure control. This info is based on my own experience with a 70$ USB eyepiece camera.
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

david_b
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#47 Post by david_b » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:30 pm

mintakax wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:01 am
I have to say after living with this camera for several weeks, I can not wait for my Nikon to come back. The thing that bothers me the most about this camera is the automatic exposure. It supposedly has exposure compensation through the menu, but it doesn't function correctly. Maybe I just don't understand how to do it, but I need more exposure control than what this has. I guess for $124 its OK, but not for me.
As above, I found that the free software IC Measure worked for manual control of a similar Hayear camera via USB.

It may not work for you, but worth a try?

https://www.theimagingsource.com/suppor ... icmeasure/

Scarodactyl
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#48 Post by Scarodactyl » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:58 pm

The problem being it does not deliver full resolution via usb.
It is good to hear a first hand account of using one. Specs are one thing but it's hard to know how it will handle without trying it.

mintakax
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Re: HA2307 HDMI industrial camera

#49 Post by mintakax » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:53 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:58 pm
The problem being it does not deliver full resolution via usb.
It is good to hear a first hand account of using one. Specs are one thing but it's hard to know how it will handle without trying it.
If thats the case, usb would be a show stopper.

Thanks all for the software tips, I may check it out just in case I have a future need. I do plan on using the HA2307 on my stereo scope someday.

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