camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

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PeterArmitage
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camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#1 Post by PeterArmitage » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:24 pm

Ideally I'd like to be able to connect my Canon digital camera to my newly acquired Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival. From what I can tell in the German-language literature, this microscope did have a trinocular tube/adapter system to connect to a 35 mm camera. Have any of you seen these tube/adapter systems for sale on eBay, etc.? Do any of you have experience doing photography with a Jena Amplival trinocular microscope? If so, how did you do it? I'll try these questions on the German Mikro-Forum as well.
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MichaelG.
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#2 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:49 am

That's an impressive looking trinocular head ... but I regret I have never seen one.
Until something turns-up, you probably have two choices.

1. Make, or adapt, a simple vertical phototube to replace the current binocular head completely.
2. Use an afocal system [existing camera lens shooting through one of the eyepieces].

Either option is likely to require some ingenuity on your part; and for (2) it would be best to mount the camera on a separate support, with a non-contact light trap.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#3 Post by MicroBob » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:41 am

Hi Peter,

here you can find many manuals for Carl Zeiss Jena products:

https://www.mikroskop-online.de/Mikrosk ... riften.htm

You might be able to identify what to look for.

Bob

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#4 Post by PeterArmitage » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:56 am

Thanks Michael and Bob. I've been rummaging around on the Mikroskop Zeiss Jena manuals/instructions website with no luck so far. I'll keep looking.... intensive investigation required.

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#5 Post by PeterArmitage » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:20 pm

Gerd, on the German Mikro-Forum tells me this is not an Amplival microscope. It's an Ergaval. He provided relevant documentation. Thanks Gerd!

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#6 Post by MicroBob » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:49 am

Gerd is an especially nice person and always very helpful. He is also very knowledgable about Zeiss Jena and related Lomo stuff.

Typical cameras in the DDR were Praktica (M42 mount), Exakta (Exakta-mount) and Werra (simple camera body with big lead shutter and no viewfinder).
I think that typically the image was projected by a "Projektiv" onto the film with no camera lens in between.
What camera do you intend to use?

Bob

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#7 Post by PeterArmitage » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:50 pm

Thank you Bob. I'm thinking of using my Canon EOS Rebel with a bayonet lens mount. I have no idea whether this is feasible. I have some documentation for the Ergaval and will be exploring this matter further in the near future. First steps are to service the microscope. I am waiting for appropriate lubricants and a couple of tools to arrive in the mail. The coarse and fine focus are quite stiff and will need their "Russian tank grease" cleaned out, etc. In the meantime, I have started on the aperture revolver [Blendenrevolver]. It is the kind of disassembly and reassembly that one has to get right the first time!

Hobbyst46
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#8 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:09 pm

PeterArmitage wrote:...In the meantime, I have started on the aperture revolver [Blendenrevolver]. It is the kind of disassembly and reassembly that one has to get right the first time!
I wish you luck with this job. maybe this previous post will be of interest (the aperture part of the post):
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6255&p=56299&hilit=leaves#p56299

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#9 Post by PeterArmitage » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:51 am

This post on the German Mikro-Forum has a lot of good links which I shall explore. https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=2871.0

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#10 Post by MicroBob » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:24 am

PeterArmitage wrote:This post on the German Mikro-Forum has a lot of good links which I shall explore. https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=2871.0
This is already quite old, so you should check whether the methods are still up-to-date before you invest time and money. The expectations are much higher now than 10 years ago.

Your Canon Rebel is a digital Rebel, right? Which one do you have? Most are quite ideal as a microscope camera.

Your trinocular adapter has a dovetail ring on top. If you put a straight eyepice tube there and mount your canon with a 40mm pancake lens atop, you would be close to the proper solution. Perhaps some changes are necessary to get parfocality between eyepieces and camera. An old Pentax M 40mm pancake is good for this. I don't have the same components so I can't fully test it for you.

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#11 Post by PeterArmitage » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:20 pm

Thank you again for your help, Bob. I have a Canon Rebel EOS T2i digital camera. I'll give serious consideration to the solution you propose.

Best wishes. Peter

---------------------------------

Your Canon Rebel is a digital Rebel, right? Which one do you have? Most are quite ideal as a microscope camera.

Your trinocular adapter has a dovetail ring on top. If you put a straight eyepice tube there and mount your canon with a 40mm pancake lens atop, you would be close to the proper solution. Perhaps some changes are necessary to get parfocality between eyepieces and camera. An old Pentax M 40mm pancake is good for this. I don't have the same components so I can't fully test it for you.

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#12 Post by MicroBob » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:14 pm

Your camera is among the best models for microphotography as it is able to release from live view without moving mirror and shutter blades.
So there will be no excuse if you pictures are not top notch! :lol:

You have to decide for yourself whether you are after perfect image quality or whether you just need documentary quality.
For the former you would have to find a good combination of eyepiece, tube and camera lens. Here eyepieces for wearers of glasses are better because of their high eye point. For your 40:1 and 100:1 objectives a Zeiss eyepiece with "K" in the name is needed. For the weaker objectives one without "K" is better. :? It can be an eyepiece from Zeiss Jena or Zeiss West (like for the Standard, Oberkochen). Leitz would be worse but still not bad. The camera lens should be a pancake to fit exit pupil and entry pupil together. For APS-c 40mm is about right. This is not so easy to get right.

When you only need documentary or mediocre quality the options are manifold. Often the easiest but quite good camera is a better smartphone. They give perfectly acceptable images by just mounting them on an eyepiece of the binocular tube.

Micro photography is a technique for itself, not quick to learn and time consuming. I would suggest to first gather some experience in microscopy, documenting it with the smartphone. Then if necessary get into micro photography.

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#13 Post by PeterArmitage » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:56 pm

Thanks again Bob. I agree that the first step is to get the microscope working well, and then learn how to use it properly in relation to my primary needs which are Nosema spp. spore counts and pollen analysis. Microphotographic documentation follows thereafter. I don't rush out and buy lots of gear without a need, without research, and without taking care of first steps first.

Best wishes. Peter

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#14 Post by PeterArmitage » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:31 pm

Rene Prill posted this image of his microphotography setup on the German forum in August 2018. He looks like he has a pancake lens on his Canon camera plus adapters, and what else? Can you discern what his set up is? He's got this setup on an Ergaval. I guess the key issue is the length of the phototube and adapters that insert between the trinocular head and the pancake lens. Obviously questions from a novice...
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MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#15 Post by MicroBob » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:56 pm

Hi Peter,
this is probably a Pentax M 40mm 1:2,8 pancake lens from about 1980. It has PK mount so you need a mount adapter. The use of a camera lens means that there is an eypiece in there too. It is probably an eyepiece for glasses wearer, but a Zeiss Jena PK 10 might work when you remove the protuding metal tube. The eyepiece will then be very near the camera lens. Below exepiece and above microscope dovetail there is a tube. It is advisable to make the eypiece position and tube lenght adjustable. The tube looks as if it were made from several camera and microscope parts like extension rings and thread adapters. The picture of Renés adapter is taken straight on so you can measure diameters and lengths and calculate the tube lenght roughly.

Bob

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#16 Post by PeterArmitage » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:58 pm

Thanks Bob. That gets me closer to the destination...

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#17 Post by PeterArmitage » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:56 am

I heard back from Rene Prill by email. He confirms use of a pancake lens, and says he tried a Canon EF40 F2,8 STM and the Pentax M 40 F2,8. He has kindly offered to provide more details shortly.

As far as I can tell, there is no amateur-hobbyist microphotography community in my part of Canada (Newfoundland and Labrador) so I am grateful for the assistance I receive on these fora. Finding phototubes and other relevant parts to set up a camera on a microscope is a challenge and hence the internet is the grand mediator for almost everything... And so it goes.

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#18 Post by PeterArmitage » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Re. microphotography set-up for Carl Zeiss Jena Ergaval microscope connection to a Canon Rebel EOS camera.

The final piece of my microphotography setup arrived yesterday so I set to work quickly to get it all operational. Here’s some photos of the setup and a couple of photos of pollen, probably white clover and a golden rod (Solidago) species.

I continue to have some issues with the coarse/fine adjustment of the microscope due to difficulty in removing the “Russian tank grease” and applying a suitable replacement. Also, the condenser diaphragm and rotating phase contrast turret (with prisms) have some issues. Once these issues are resolved, I’ll be in a better position to play with the phase contrast, the different phototube eyepieces, etc. and improve the quality of this photos.

In any event, I would like to thank all of you - MicroBob – and others for your assistance with this. Greatly appreciated!

1. Zeiss Jena phototube. Acquired on eBay.

2. CARL ZEISS JENA microscope eyepiece PK 8x (18) (d= 23,2). I also have a MF-Projektiv 4:1. Acquired on eBay.

3. Baader dovetail-to-T2. This is a 42 mm male thread. Baader would not ship direct. I had to purchase through a Canadian retailer, which took two months.
https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/b ... t-07).html

https://www.kwtelescope.com/baader-quic ... g-t-2.html

4. STELLARVUE 8 MM - 12 MM VARIABLE LENGTH M42 EXTENSION TUBE.
42 female thread one side, 42 mm male thread other end. M42X0.75 (T or T2 mount)
https://optcorp.com/products/stellarvue ... -sfe-m42-v

5. 49-42mm step down ring. Enables use of 42mm filters on lenses with 49mm" thread: M42X0.75 female to M49X075 male
http://camerapix.co.uk/index.php?id_pro ... er=product

6. Olympus OM Zuiko 50mm f1.8 (MC or Auto-S versions) 49 mm female
Acquired on eBay.

7. OM to EOS adapter (for Olympus 50 mm lens connect to Canon EOS) chipped (AF confirm) Acquired on eBay.

8. PK eyepieces. Acquired on eBay.
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Last edited by PeterArmitage on Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hobbyst46
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#19 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:01 pm

Congratulation on the setup!
Recently I purchased the same MF-Projektif 4:1 Zeiss Jena eyepiece, to interface to my Canon 50mm/1.8mm on the mirrorless APSC Canon camera.
A post on the forum has shown that this Z. Jena eyepiece performs well with Z. West for afocal photography.
I tried it and found that it covers a small portion of the FOV, yet the chromatic compensation was fine.

I will be glad to see the performance of the Projektif eyepiece on your setup.

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#20 Post by MicroBob » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi Peter,
nice to see that you've got the necessary pieces together.
The images show some room for improvement but the important things work.

These MF-Projektive were made in different versions all meant for direct projection on film of different sizes like 35mm, medium format 4x5 inch etc.. I don't know it there was a version that fits APS-C well.

Bob

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#21 Post by PeterArmitage » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:32 am

MicroBob. I tried rummaging about on this BBS looking for criteria to assess the quality of microscope photos. Nothing jumped out at me during the several minutes I spent at it. What criteria do you use to assess image/photo quality? What makes the different between a poor image and an excellent one?

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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#22 Post by MicroBob » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:52 pm

Hi Peter,

when I look at the second photo I would say that nothing is really in focus. Also there is no white in the image - is the background this light brown colour?
The image also might be a bit on the contrasty but low resolution side - how was your condenser set?

Here is a pollen image, taken 7 years ago: https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index. ... ic=12978.0

Bob

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#23 Post by PeterArmitage » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:29 am

Lovely images there on the German site. Big difference in image quality. These are much better than most of the LM images I see in the pollen ID texts and online data bases. That gives me something to strive for. Thanks!

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#24 Post by MicroBob » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:07 am

I had a look how he made these photos:

- Zeiss West infinity microscope with Plan-Neofluar objectives
- 4 Megapixel compact camera :lol:

which tricks did he use:
- preparation (embedded in slightly Fuchsin stained glycerin gelantine, using the refractive index difference to enhance details)
- stacking of 7 shots
- probably some further image editing
- he didn't show the slides that went wrong :lol:

So his objectives were somewhat better than your, his camera a lot worse, and he knew how to do it.

This is not too difficult to copy and the results are great.

When looking at micro photographs in the internet one always has to keep in mind that some of the good/great images were forced with a huge amount of work. Then it is always the question whether one should use this as a standard for oneself and whether the results would be worth the trouble for oneself.
I have many interests and little time for them so I try to act according to the Pareto-principle: 80% the result with 20% the effort. :lol:

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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#25 Post by PeterArmitage » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:33 am

Cost-benefit, right! Art or something else? I wouldn't mind trying some art particularly during the winter months when there isn't much beekeeping to be done. But otherwise my primary interest at the moment is pollen identification/melissopalynology and Nosema spp. diagnostics (spore counts). Images don't need to be pretty, just scaled and clear enough to facilitate identification. I'll get some stacker software and play with it. It's not expensive. Meanwhile I still have some microscope servicing problems to solve. Thanks again.

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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#26 Post by MicroBob » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:00 pm

Tere is a good free stacking programm: Picolay.

PeterArmitage
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Re: equivalent quality?

#27 Post by PeterArmitage » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:55 pm

MicroBob. I have come across an instrument shop in Central Canada that claims to have 12 Carl Zeiss Jena Ergaval microscopes in stock. If one were deliberating about the merits of purchasing one of these old microscopes compared to a new one, how would one rate the quality of the 1970s vintage Ergavals in terms of optics, etc. (apart from all the servicing issues)? What contemporary brand/model of microscope would be of equivalent quality to the Ergavals?

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75RR
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#28 Post by 75RR » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:26 pm

PeterArmitage wrote:MicroBob. I have come across an instrument shop in Central Canada that claims to have 12 Carl Zeiss Jena Ergaval microscopes in stock. If one were deliberating about the merits of purchasing one of these old microscopes compared to a new one, how would one rate the quality of the 1970s vintage Ergavals in terms of optics, etc. (apart from all the servicing issues)? What contemporary brand/model of microscope would be of equivalent quality to the Ergavals?
Some general thoughts on old vs new microscopes, particularly the objectives.

I think that on an even playing field - comparing top of the line objectives (Planapochomats for example) - the newer ones would have the edge.

However one also has to take into account whether one could actually afford the top of the line new objectives, which are usually hundreds of dollars (canadian or otherwise) more expensive.

Assuming you can afford them, then you also have to decide if the difference between the old and new objectives is measurably worth that extra money in day to day use.

It is also worth looking at what illumination techniques are available for each microscope and the comparative cost of each.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

MicroBob
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#29 Post by MicroBob » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:45 pm

Hi Peter,

I think basic light microscopes have not been developed much further in these decades - they are just not at the pinnacle of research any more. From my point of view the development has mainly been in production cost and ease of use for not so well informed users.
The Ergaval was a basic quality lab microscope, no simple course microscope but also no research grade instrument. So it would probably compare to a Zeiss Primo Star today. Would I pay the same amount as for a Primo Star for a used, old Zeiss Ergval - of cause not. But this is also not necessary, the used Ergaval will be much cheaper than the new Primo Star. When you compare them you will find advantages and disadvantages and in the end you would have to decide what you like better. It is also a question of what accessories are available and what you actually want/need. The Primo Star is Zeiss's bottom line today while the Ergaval was part of the big Microval-System.

But if you actually buy 12 Ergavals, we would expect you to post interesting topics in this forum day and night - just to make this clear! :lol:

Bob

PeterArmitage
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Re: camera adapter for Carl Zeiss Jena Amplival

#30 Post by PeterArmitage » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:34 pm

Bob. If this is the same Zeiss microscope you're talking about, Fischer Scientific in Canada is selling Carl Zeiss Primo Star microscopes starting at $2,961 (~1900 Euros). https://www.fishersci.ca/shop/products/ ... /p-4894171 I paid $275 for my phase contrast Ergaval and a few hundred more Canadian dollars for additional planachromat objectives, eyepieces, and service-related stuff.

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