How much camera before diminishing returns

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Oceanfrank
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:25 am

How much camera before diminishing returns

#1 Post by Oceanfrank » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:38 pm

Newbie - Consumer
RE:
• AmScope Stereo Scope - Parfocal Trinocular Zoom 6.7X to 45X ZMDG6745T https://www.amscope.com/stereo-microsco ... -head.html
• Stand: https://www.amscope.com/accessories/sta ... ights.html
• Gooseneck Lighting: https://www.amscope.com/powerful-led-du ... light.html
• Camera: Rebel Xsi DLSR
Just purchased a new Stereo Scope and the views through the lenses are pretty good. As I have an old Rebel XSi laying around I went the route of connecting it through the tri-port to see what it would look like. I have LED top and bottom dimmable lights and an additional Gooseneck lighting with a mechanical Table stand. However, even though I am using Helicon software, the video/photo images are far cry from what I observe online on this site and others
So this begs a question from me, since I have 30day to return the scope if needed. Are the poor pictures at 45X due to the dated low end (comparatively) camera, connection adapter between the camera and microscope, or the microscope? As the view through the lens at 45X is very solid, I sense the microscope is not the issue, though I may be wrong. This leaves the connection adapter and the camera.
First the camera. Does the Camera really play a big role for static subjects on a Stereo Scope? Meaning, I have a Rebel Xsi (the image at high rez is so so, just bought a Rebal T5i off eBay for $150 to try to improve the photo and live view image. With that said, is there still a significant improvement going to be made getting a a Canon 77D, 80D, 250D or M50 over the Rebel T5i when using Helicon through this microscope, to justify investing the additional $500-$1000 for camera
Lastly, I am using a new Amscope Canon DSLR adapter. Is the LM Adapter solution
https://www.lmscope.com/en/lmscope_out2 ... mit=Search
attachment that sells for $1000 going to significantly enhance the image better than what the Canon attachment for $100 from AMScope provides

LMScope rates the following camera chocies as such.
Camera Rating and LMScope Ranking Score
Canon EOS RP with Canon Adapter EF-EOS R 85000 ((New Abesofmaine.com Body only) $699
https://www.lmscope.com/en/camera_ranki ... sprache=en
Canon 250D - 63000
https://www.lmscope.com/en/camera_ranki ... sprache=en
Canon M50 - 63000 (New Abesofmaine.com Body Only) - $599
https://www.lmscope.com/en/canon_m50_sy ... ra_en.html
Canon 80D - 62000 (eBay kit with Lens starting ~$800
https://www.lmscope.com/en/Canon_EOS_80 ... st_en.html
Canon 77D - 59000 (eBay kit with Lens starting ~$700
https://www.lmscope.com/en/Canon_EOS_77 ... st_en.html
T5i - 53700 ($150)
https://www.lmscope.com/en/canon_eos_70 ... se_en.html
XSi - 37000 ($50)
https://www.lmscope.com/en/camera_ranki ... sprache=en

Note: Excluding Sony is out since they are not compatible with helicon without converting all the files and Nikon puts me in the $1500+ range even on ebay so looking for alternatives for now.

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75RR
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Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#2 Post by 75RR » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:59 pm

Are the poor pictures at 45X due to the dated low end (comparatively) camera, connection adapter between the camera and microscope, or the microscope? As the view through the lens at 45X is very solid, I sense the microscope is not the issue, though I may be wrong. This leaves the connection adapter and the camera.
If you post the photos it might help us diagnose the problem.

If the camera is working correctly (when used off the stereoscope) then the most likely suspect is either the adapter or the way the adapter has been set up.

Please note that the maximum photo size (direct upload to the forum) is 1024 x 1024
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

Scarodactyl
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Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#3 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:14 pm

I have used an XS on a variety of microscopes, and I don't think one in good condition should introduce any issues. Its problems are generally not with picture quality but convenience (it has an annoying bug where the live view is significantly dimmer than the captured photo). The t5i will probably do better for you for that reason--I use a T6 and am very happy with it.
I had an Amscope with a similar zoom range and it wasn't bad (though this doesn't mean much since it was a different design and likely built by a totally different company--amscope is just an importer). I did connect my t6 to it at one point and I would rate the results as OK, though not as good as I've seen from better name-brand stereo scopes. For the price of the amscope you could almost get a Nikon SMZ-10 which can be inexpensively hooked up to a dslr (though with some cropping on APS-C).
I definitely wouldn't spend more on an adapter than on the scope itself. 1000 dollars can buy you a LOT of microscope.
Last edited by Scarodactyl on Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeteM
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Location: N. California

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#4 Post by PeteM » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:45 pm

One possibility is to consider what screen will be using for live viewing with your kids. Let's say it has 3 megapixels. Then, a 3-5 megapixel USB or HDMI camera - or an adapter for an even higher resolution phone or tablet camera will set an affordable baseline (and be usable for rough handling by your kids). You can easily test both your trinocular port and one of the binocular ports. Image quality should usually be the same either way.

Even with one of these sub-$100 approaches (USB,HDMI, cell phone or tablet holder) you should have very good pictures - at least on the display. Movies of protists are also cool and for that you'll want a fairly fast frame rate (USB-3, HDMI, or most cell phones).

If the photos are not at least as good (as the cheap options) with your DSLR camera, the setup (or remotely possibly the new scope) is likely somehow wrong. You should expect to see a bit greater resolution (not a big deal for many microscope photos), better contrast, better color, less noise etc. from your DSLR.

Other than moving from something like a 2/3rd frame DSLR to full frame DSLR you might not notice an optical difference. However, having something like a live view mode with no shutter vibration can make a big difference - especially if a camera is attached rather than hovering above a stereo trinocular or binocular tube. Not sure, your newer Rebel may already have something like that.

FWIW, the folks doing dazzling focused-stacked photos with stunning depth of field at 10x - 20x are often using a dedicated macro photography stand rather than trying to photograph through either a binocular or trinocular stereo microscope. And fixing a DSLR to a stereo microscope and still using it for mostly regular viewing can sometimes be more cumbersome (and tippy) than imagined.

MicroBob
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Location: Northern Germany

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#5 Post by MicroBob » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:38 am

Hi Frank,

the Rebel Xsi is a well respected microscope camera and you will only get from very good to outstanding by changeing the camera.
Generally micro photography is as difficult a topic as microscopy in itself. So it is good to master microscopy at some level before spending too much energy on micro photography. Most frequent causes of bad micro photographs are bad specimen preparation and wrong handling of the microscope.

The necessary level of quality is also determined by the human eye: From a comfortable viewing distance you just can't resolve much more than about 2 Megapixels. So convenience, low vibration etc. are more important than huge pixel counts.
Todays smartphones are very capable microscope cameras and the better ones offer a system to transfer the moving image wirelessly. Especially with people around it is very nice to have no cable to step on.

Bob

jfiresto
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Location: Northern Germany

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#6 Post by jfiresto » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:13 am

Do these DSLRs experience mirror slap?

My humble, Olympus E-PL1 experiences a bit of shutter shock, the mirrorless camera variant. Fortunately, Olympus also makes microscopes and included an ANTI-SHOCK option which briefly pauses between closing and reopening the shutter. I was getting some blurring, which completely disappeared after I turned it on.

Is there an equivalent DSLR option that will briefly pause after the mirror is up, before taking an exposure?
-John

apochronaut
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Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#7 Post by apochronaut » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:48 pm

I agree with 75RR. Posting pictures gives an actual image to see, so a diagnosis can be made. A captured image that is much worse than the viewed image can be caused any number of things.
There are clues in the text but seeing images is pretty necessary.

Oceanfrank
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Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#8 Post by Oceanfrank » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:20 pm

As always great community support. I will post the photos. I have to figure out how to reduce the size of the file, but will try to do that tonight.

To add more context, I was not thinking I could take magazine photos as those are retouched and use expensive equipment, but I figured like you can take a simple picture with you iphone of the landscape and get reasonable results, the same would hold true with the stereo scope. However, this might not be the case.
Two specific cases I will post tonight where of peppercorn, though the same holds for any object with small crystals/detail. I had no idea a peppercorn would look like a geode inside. When I put the peppercorns on Salt, it just really popped through the lenses from 20-45x.
However, when I took the photo, though I got the gyst of the object in focus, all the specific details where blurred over. You could not see the miniature stalagmites or stalactites like objects built with what looks like miniature crystals, but you would shinny bumps in a wavy area.
What I did notice was that last night I used the EOS Utility to take the pictures instead of the Helicon Remote utility. When I did this, the video portion was much clearer right from the start. However, when I took a serious of pictures to stack them, I notice the object in the frame was slowing moving to the right each time I slightly advanced the course focused. Therefore, I turned the camera 180 degrees and then notice the object was moving to the left in each photo. Then I took the camera and moved it to the eyepiece. Same issue (though the view of the object on the screen was much clearer) .

Does this mean that there is an alignment issue? I take it this applies to the stand rather than the head, Correct?

75RR - Thank you for the photo size tip
Scarodactyl, thank you for the feedback on the Canon XSi camera. Having no experience with photography with stereo/microscopes I was not sure if the actual photo was the reason the LMScope.com rated the camera as poorly as they did. What camera did you upgrade too? And yes I noticed the bug you mentioned, but thought that was a feature ;-) – So is there somewhere you can find a SMX-10 for $400? I looked online and most where gong for $1500-2k on eBay. At this point I am close to returning the system and getting a Nikon or Olympus Binocular stereo based on my few days with it and also feedback from PeteM and others.

PeteM as always - fantastic assistance. I attached the camera to the actual eyepiece socket this morning and realize a big difference in visuals on the screen. When I hook the camera up normally to the screen using a lense the picture is perfect, so I know the camera / monitor / cable are fine. So you talked me into getting the iphone attachment for the scope. I will let you know how it turns out. Also I just recently realized that there was a camera only stand when I saw it on LMscope.com over the weekend and realized this as how they must get those incredible photos. However, I simply am looking for a way for the kids to capture the images we see in the eyepieces for school projects for now. You actually have me thinking about getting the Canon M50 or the RP now since I do not need those lenses. AbesofMaine.com has some good deals for them. In addition, you might have talked me back into a better binocular scope than a lesser trinocular scope now that see how easy it is to attach the camera. So what camera do you use on your stereoscope? And what Scope do you use these days?

Microbob. Yes, I can imagine photography on a microscope is very hard. Hence, why I eliminated that choice of scope quickly. For now, working simply with the Stereoscope until we get used to it. In addition, given everything we are discovering and my kids excitement, this site worked wonders in helping convenience me that going the stereo scope route was the perfect choice for now. Once the kids are further along we will move on to the microscope. However, thank you for confirming the Xsi is a decent camera for now. As I mentioned earlier LMScope.com noted it was a bad camera, and I was not sure if that was due to lack of functionality as compared to newer cameras or because of the photos it took. Iphone attachment is on its way!!
JFiresto – the mirror can be locked, though I did not lock it yet. However, I need to fix the image shift in the photos first.
I will post pictures once the photo shift is corrected. However I might also post them without the stack so you can see the are still muted and without sharpness.….thank you for all your help.

Frank

geo_man
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#9 Post by geo_man » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:21 pm

Oceanfrank wrote:As always great community support. I will post the photos. I have to figure out how to reduce the size of the file, but will try to do that tonight.

To add more context, I was not thinking I could take magazine photos as those are retouched and use expensive equipment, but I figured like you can take a simple picture with you iphone of the landscape and get reasonable results, the same would hold true with the stereo scope. However, this might not be the case.
Two specific cases I will post tonight where of peppercorn, though the same holds for any object with small crystals/detail. I had no idea a peppercorn would look like a geode inside. When I put the peppercorns on Salt, it just really popped through the lenses from 20-45x.
However, when I took the photo, though I got the gyst of the object in focus, all the specific details where blurred over. You could not see the miniature stalagmites or stalactites like objects built with what looks like miniature crystals, but you would shinny bumps in a wavy area.
What I did notice was that last night I used the EOS Utility to take the pictures instead of the Helicon Remote utility. When I did this, the video portion was much clearer right from the start. However, when I took a serious of pictures to stack them, I notice the object in the frame was slowing moving to the right each time I slightly advanced the course focused. Therefore, I turned the camera 180 degrees and then notice the object was moving to the left in each photo. Then I took the camera and moved it to the eyepiece. Same issue (though the view of the object on the screen was much clearer) .

Does this mean that there is an alignment issue? I take it this applies to the stand rather than the head, Correct?

75RR - Thank you for the photo size tip
Scarodactyl, thank you for the feedback on the Canon XSi camera. Having no experience with photography with stereo/microscopes I was not sure if the actual photo was the reason the LMScope.com rated the camera as poorly as they did. What camera did you upgrade too? And yes I noticed the bug you mentioned, but thought that was a feature ;-) – So is there somewhere you can find a SMX-10 for $400? I looked online and most where gong for $1500-2k on eBay. At this point I am close to returning the system and getting a Nikon or Olympus Binocular stereo based on my few days with it and also feedback from PeteM and others.

PeteM as always - fantastic assistance. I attached the camera to the actual eyepiece socket this morning and realize a big difference in visuals on the screen. When I hook the camera up normally to the screen using a lense the picture is perfect, so I know the camera / monitor / cable are fine. So you talked me into getting the iphone attachment for the scope. I will let you know how it turns out. Also I just recently realized that there was a camera only stand when I saw it on LMscope.com over the weekend and realized this as how they must get those incredible photos. However, I simply am looking for a way for the kids to capture the images we see in the eyepieces for school projects for now. You actually have me thinking about getting the Canon M50 or the RP now since I do not need those lenses. AbesofMaine.com has some good deals for them. In addition, you might have talked me back into a better binocular scope than a lesser trinocular scope now that see how easy it is to attach the camera. So what camera do you use on your stereoscope? And what Scope do you use these days?

Microbob. Yes, I can imagine photography on a microscope is very hard. Hence, why I eliminated that choice of scope quickly. For now, working simply with the Stereoscope until we get used to it. In addition, given everything we are discovering and my kids excitement, this site worked wonders in helping convenience me that going the stereo scope route was the perfect choice for now. Once the kids are further along we will move on to the microscope. However, thank you for confirming the Xsi is a decent camera for now. As I mentioned earlier LMScope.com noted it was a bad camera, and I was not sure if that was due to lack of functionality as compared to newer cameras or because of the photos it took. Iphone attachment is on its way!!
JFiresto – the mirror can be locked, though I did not lock it yet. However, I need to fix the image shift in the photos first.
I will post pictures once the photo shift is corrected. However I might also post them without the stack so you can see the are still muted and without sharpness.….thank you for all your help.

Frank

Hi, others can correct me or improve on my description, but stereoscopes have the two eye views inclined slightly towards the center. This provides the perspective for each eye that results in stereo vision. So you do not have a problem related to the images moving laterally slightly as you shift focus. In fact, HeliconFocus handles this shift automatically. See my recent post under "My Microscope" to see example stacked spider photo from a stereo microscope. Good luck!

Scarodactyl
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Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#10 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:52 pm

Oceanfrank wrote: Scarodactyl, thank you for the feedback on the Canon XSi camera. Having no experience with photography with stereo/microscopes I was not sure if the actual photo was the reason the LMScope.com rated the camera as poorly as they did. What camera did you upgrade too? And yes I noticed the bug you mentioned, but thought that was a feature ;-) – So is there somewhere you can find a SMX-10 for $400? I looked online and most where gong for $1500-2k on eBay. At this point I am close to returning the system and getting a Nikon or Olympus Binocular stereo based on my few days with it and also feedback from PeteM and others.
Yeah, I was probably being a bit optimistic with the SMZ-10. You can get them for that price very occasionally but you have to get lucky in an auction. I have an extra one myself, but I wouldn't part with it for 400. That said there is this one up for only 500 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-SMZ-10-M ... SwqzxctNkY

It has a couple issues--the photo eyepiece is busted (doesn't matter, you'll want to replace it with a 2.5x one anyway) and the black grip has peeled off the mag changer (also no big deal, if the bare metal feels bad you can add your own grippy material). You'll probably want to swap that base out for something more compact and stable, though you can probably arrange for the seller to keep it and save at least on shipping. If the optics inside are good then the other stuff doesn't matter *(if they are bad, moldy or misaligned, just return it immediately), and it's super easy to hook up a canon camera for an additional ~80 dollars in adapters.

edit: this one is even cheaper with a make offer option https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-SMZ-10-M ... SwlddclSLY They also take returns, you might have a chance to really score on this one.
(Not to be crass, but if you're interested in an smz-10 but don't want the risks of buying used from an unknown seller I could pick this one up, check that it's in working order, set it up for a canon dslr and send it on for 500 total--assuming you're in the US anyway. totally fine if you'd rather not, I can also send you info on what parts you need to adapt it yourself)

That does end up with you spending a bit more than the amscope cost, but it's also likely you'll never need to upgrade unless you really fall down the rabbit hole and start craving hardcore research equipment. This scope has a great reputation particularly in gem photography, in large part because of John Koivula and his mentee Nathan Renfro, so it's fair to say it can definitely produce publication-grade photos. It also has the (as far as I know totally unique) feature that with the switch of a lever you change which light path the photo is taken through which is fun.
re: cameras I use a Canon t6 now, which I imagine is very similar to the t5i. I've had a few XSes because I like to have them as an optional add-on with trinocular microscopes when I sell one and for testing systems without risking dust getting in my main camera. That said, I have read the LMscope review of the XS and most of the complaints while legitimate shouldn't matter much on a stereo scope. You should always be able to pump enough light onto the subject that your iso will be solidly at 100, for instance.

MicroBob
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Location: Northern Germany

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#11 Post by MicroBob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:17 am

Hi Frank,
for micro photography a vibration free camera is important. Many Canon DSLRs (yours too) offer a "first electronic shutter curtain" when shooting out of live view. This means that there is no movement before the image is taken. See here: http://www.krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/
When you make use of this feature you will get perfectly vibration free pictures, so this can be eliminated as as source of problems.
The Canon image sensors made little progress for several years so only quite new ones would offer a visible advantage. For forum image size there is no advantage.

For children a smartphone connection is very attractive as this becomes their most beloved communication tool as soon as they get one.

For reducing image size and quick image editing I use Irfan view, only 3 clicks.

Bob

Oceanfrank
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Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:25 am

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#12 Post by Oceanfrank » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:15 am

Here are some sample shots. The photos with the names are Helicon files and the IMG files are single shot. I do notice that when I take the photos with the EOS Utility tool instead of Helicon Remote, the picture seem to come out more refined. However, the detail is lost when the Helicon renders the photos. I also just realized this. Again the microscope pictures shift when I take photos so I have to call AMScope to see if this is an alignment issue. Note about the pictures. The crystal like structures (white area in the green corn) are very distinct, clear with crisp edges and relief even through only one eye pieces. As you can see in the picture, they are smooth, blended, or softened, or blurred almost. This is why I was not sure if it was technique or camera quality.

As of now I have ordered a Iphone adapter. I also really enjoyed that video Microbob. I think part of the issue may be I am taking the photos too quickly not letting things settle introducing vibration as you mentioned.

Scarodactylv, I am going to hold off on a used microscope for now. But agree adding an expensive adapter to this setup is not wise. Also thank you for the feedback on the LMscope review.
Attachments
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IMG_0013 copy.JPG (392.21 KiB) Viewed 7226 times
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IMG_0031 copy.JPG (323.41 KiB) Viewed 7226 times
Peppercorn Yellow copy 3.jpg
Peppercorn Yellow copy 3.jpg (349.95 KiB) Viewed 7226 times

Scarodactyl
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Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#13 Post by Scarodactyl » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:28 pm

Oceanfrank wrote:Again the microscope pictures shift when I take photos so I have to call AMScope to see if this is an alignment issue.
This is totally normal, if you mean a consistent horizontal shift as you focus in or out. It is inherent to stereo microscopes, and helicon can handle it fine.
To me, it looks like your focusing steps might be too far, so you have slices in there which aren't in focus in any photo. But there may be something else going on too.

MicroBob
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:11 am
Location: Northern Germany

Re: How much camera before diminishing returns

#14 Post by MicroBob » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:05 pm

Hi Frank,
the individual images are about as good as you can expect. Stereo microscopes have just barely the resolution to satisfy the human eye. This allows for a wider free working distance at a given price. So for low magnification images in stunning quality different hardware is used.

When I first stacked images I expected them to be better than the single shots in any case. I expected that the image content could only become better by including data from additional images. Then I learned that this is not true: A stack with too small number of images is less sharp than any single image of the stack. You might try with an object that is threedimensional but not very thick and use the same amount of images as before.

Bob

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