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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Hobbyst46 wrote:
Dave S wrote:
I made up a crude adapter to place the 18-55 lens on the eos4000d against the 10x eyepiece in the photo tube (afocal), and the image was not as that seen visually, but quite magnified by the sensor.
Dave, for afocal setup, the appropriate focal length of the canera lens, for an APSC sensor, when the eyepiece is 10X, is 40mm. The zoom should be set at 40mm and pre-focused at infinity. Both settings can be mechanically fixed on the zoom lens by means of a turn of cellotape wrap.


The 18-55 kit lens, taking the 1.6 crop factor into account, is 29-88mm, so 40mm is achievable. I tried it at various focal lengths, but even at the 29mm end, its still a much magnified image, compared with the visual view through the same eyepiece.

I'm still convinced that replacing the 10x eyepiece in the photo tube, with a 2x would bring things down to a sensible level, but it is a £103 gamble to try the AMscope one. :?

If I buy a separate 2x eyepiece, I would need to be sure that it isn't of the compensatory type, as according to Bresser, their objectives don't have CA issues. I would tend to agree with that, as I haven't seen any evidence of CA.

Thanks for the 'heads' up on the Nikon eyepieces Michael. I guess that new, they would cost more than the EOS4000d ;)

As I said, doing afocal with the iPhone, and its small sensor, I get a very comparable result to the visual view.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:35 pm 
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Two instructive presentations of the subject, with demonstrations:
here by Rjlittlefield
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 6333#56333
and here by Pau
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 9265#99265

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:38 pm 
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Thanks for that, I'll have a read. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:49 am 
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Having followed up on those 'links' suggested by 'hobby', which were quite informative, I started searching through old posts on the subject using a DSLR for photography via the photo tube on a Trioc microscope.

It was very useful in saving me from risking £103 on the AMscope DSLR adapter, with its intrinsic 2x lens.

The 'bottom line' is that the optic is far from good, and lacking in sharpness.

The guy was initially using a similar Chinese version, marketed by GTvision in the UK, which was more expensive than the AMscope one, which he went on to buy. His images showed no difference between the two.

Thinking that it might be because he was using an achromat objective, he invested in a plan objective. The only difference between the two objectives was that the in focus area was slightly wider with the plan optic, but still dropped off towards the edges. The centre area sharpness was identical between the achro and plan objectives.

He then tried afocal imaging with a prime lens on the DSLR, and the resulting image was noticeably sharper. He posted the images taken at each stage, of the same slide, for comparison.

So, I think the moral of the story is that direct imaging via a 'relay' lens, is fine, if the relay lens doesn't soften the image, as in the case of both the AMscope, and GT vision version of the DSLR adapter.

What I think I need is 23mm 2x non-compensated eyepiece, of good quality, to function as a relay lens.

The other option is to locate on old manual focus 40mm prime lens, and go down the afocal route. The only issue is mounting the camera with its lens 5mm above the eyepiece.

A dedicated adapter that would fit into the 23mm photo tube, while also accepting a 40mm DSLR lens, is not an off the shelf item I believe. If I still had my hobby lathe, I could probably make one, but I sold that when i gave up astro-imaging, and with it the need to make adapters for telescopes, and cameras.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:19 am 
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Dave S wrote:
What I think I need is 23mm 2x non-compensated eyepiece, of good quality, to function as a relay lens.

Seems to be the optimal solution.
Quote:
The other option is to locate on old manual focus 40mm prime lens, and go down the afocal route. The only issue is mounting the camera with its lens 5mm above the eyepiece.
A dedicated adapter that would fit into the 23mm photo tube, while also accepting a 40mm DSLR lens, is not an off the shelf item I believe. If I still had my hobby lathe, I could probably make one, but I sold that when i gave up astro-imaging, and with it the need to make adapters for telescopes, and cameras.
Covered here:
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ind ... focal.html
The 5mm (or so) distance issue can be created, albeit painstakingly.

The adapter is not supposed to fit inside the 23mm phototube. Rather, it should have an internal diameter >25mm, to fit over the photo tube and eyepiece. If the filter diameter of the camera lens is A mm, an adapter of Ax1.25" (for telescopes) is an off-the-shelf item (side note: perhaps there are better versions than the one purchased by David Walker years ago). But, it is indeed better to make and place a plastic sleeve between the top end of the photo tube and the inside of the adapter end, to prevent direct contact between the thumb screws and the eyepiece.

And there is an alternative, like done by Charles Krebs (in the past) and 75RR, where the camera is fixed ("hangs") above the scope, the camera lens is above the eyepiece, at a small distance, without physical contact.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:08 pm 
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MichaelG. wrote:
The blue fringes on that first image are worrying :o
... Something is obviously not as Bresser imagines it to be.

MichaelG.


Hi MichaelG

I have had another look at the images from the Canon camera and I can confirm that there are some chromatic aberrations with the 10x eyepeice I have used in the tube to connect the Canon camera. Looking at my stage micrometer I can see that at the edge of the image there is a definite yellow band on the micrometer divisions. I also can see a slight pincushion effect on the ouside of the F.O.V.
It seems to have started after I removed the reticle from the eyepiece as I don't remember seeing it before that, however I might be mistaken as it is only on the very outer edge of the image.

I don't have a problem with the image through the eyepieces as the photo with the Sony camera confirms.

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:20 pm 
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Roldorf wrote:
MichaelG. wrote:
The blue fringes on that first image are worrying :o
... Something is obviously not as Bresser imagines it to be.

MichaelG.


Hi MichaelG

I have had another look at the images from the Canon camera and I can confirm that there are some chromatic aberrations with the 10x eyepeice I have used in the tube to connect the Canon camera. Looking at my stage micrometer I can see that at the edge of the image there is a definite yellow band on the micrometer divisions. I also can see a slight pincushion effect on the ouside of the F.O.V.
It seems to have started after I removed the reticle from the eyepiece as I don't remember seeing it before that, however I might be mistaken as it is only on the very outer edge of the image.

I don't have a problem with the image through the eyepieces as the photo with the Sony camera confirms.

Thanks for the update ... Something to keep us guessing !!

May I suggest that you try putting one of the 'good' eyepieces from the binocular in the photoport, and take some comparison shots using the Canon camera.

MichaelG.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:32 pm 
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Dave S wrote:
The 'bottom line' is that the optic is far from good, and lacking in sharpness.

That's too bad. I've never tried one myself, just gone by second-hand reports. Though even with two samples one wonders if it's a QC problem.
Any chance you could link to those posts? (edit: for anyone else curious https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... e741f5fb98 )
From reading reviews on the amazon link supplied in that thread it looks like the performance just isn't that good on these. That is a darned shame.

Dave S wrote:
What I think I need is 23mm 2x non-compensated eyepiece, of good quality, to function as a relay lens.

The other option is to locate on old manual focus 40mm prime lens, and go down the afocal route. The only issue is mounting the camera with its lens 5mm above the eyepiece.

A used Nikon 2.5x projective tends to cost around 40-50 dollars (hence why I'd never had a reason to pick up the Chinese 2x for twice as much). I have bought a few of the 2.5x projectives used, they have always been fine, though they do need careful cleaning as any dust on there will be visible in a photo. That is the only really affordable, generally-dslr-sized non-compensating projective I know of. Nikon did or does make a 2x but it's quite expensive on the second-hand market. I imagine buying one new would not be terribly affordable, though I'm kind of curious what their pricing is like.


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:14 am 
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Scarodactyl wrote:
Any chance you could link to those posts?


I'm not sure I can find it again, as I surfed through a large number of posts on various forums, and didn't bookmark it.

If I do come across it, I will post the link.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:47 am 
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Hi Dave I found this.
https://www.benad24.de/business-industr ... escription

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:58 pm 
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That looks very interesting Alan, and screws into the T2 adapter by the look of it.

I would assume that the T2 to 23mm adapter would screw into the opposite side.

I have a 2.5x (23mm) relay lens on its way to me, so that I can try it out.

It will fit into the longer Bresser 5942000 T2 adapter, in the same manner as Bresser described for the 10x.

I'll let you know the outcome.

Of course we could take out a mortgage and buy one of the hi end 1.6x models ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:06 pm 
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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143103473133?frcectupt=true

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323319712392

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:32 pm 
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Good I hope it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:52 pm 
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The 2.5x eyepiece arrived to day, and although I am quite busy with other things at the moment, I couldn't resist taking a quick look. :)

I made up a temporary means of holding it in-place inside the Bresser T2 to 23mm adapter, and installed the 4000d on the photo port.

A much more acceptable image size, and field of view, compared with using a 10x eyepiece, and a nicely focused image, which I couldn't achieve with the 10x.

It wasn't possible to achieve perfect parfocal focus with the 10x eyepieces at the binocular head, but very close.

The camera needs to move a little closer to the subject, than the adjustable photo tube allows. A few mm shaved off the photo tube would be a solution. That said, having to refocus slightly for the camera, is not really an issue as far as I'm concerned.

So, onwards and upwards now I think. It took time, and experimentation to get there, but its been a good learning process along the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:18 pm 
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Dave S

Hi Dave glad it worked out looking forward to some images. :D

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Glad to hear it! Which type of 2.5x did you end up getting?


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:08 pm 
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As long as you only have to adjust the focus a small amount you should be fine.
CE

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:33 pm 
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Crater Eddie wrote:
As long as you only have to adjust the focus a small amount you should be fine.
CE


Absolutely Eddie, it is a very small amount, and I don't see it as an issue.

The engineer said to his boss, "that's near enough", to which the boss replied, "I don't want it near enough, I want it exactly right", the engineer said, "it is exactly right", the boss replied "Ok that's near enough then" :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Ok guys, the final chapter of this story :)

I didn't have time to experiment much with the 2.5x eyepiece, as I was off on holiday two days after it arrived, but now having returned, I have.

The result is a successful solution to imaging via the photo tube, on the Bresser Researcher Trino Microscope, with an APS-C DSLR.

After much very helpful discussion with Bresser's support guys in Germany, whose level of support has been exemplary, they sent me FOC, an unbranded 2.5x eyepiece which they had laying around in a box of miscellaneous items, and test samples.

The image is a little magnified from that seen visually, but not that much, and as such, quite acceptable. Certainly a huge improvement over that with a 10x eyepiece, as originally suggested.

Its is as close to parfocal with the 10X eyepieces in the binocular head, as makes little difference. Just a fractional adjustment of the fine focus.

Bresser asked if I would provide feedback on my findings, which of course I have. I can retain the 2.5x eyepiece that they sent me. :)

These microscopes are engineered around their own brand of microscope cameras (Toupcam), which of course have small sensors, located close to the front of the camera.

They had not considered that customers might want to use a DSLR with their mid price microscopes.

Following my experimentation, and subsequent feedback, they tell me that they will now give some serious thought to introducing an adapter incorporating a suitable projection optic, to allow this range of microscopes to be used with a DSLR, or at least an APS-C DSLR.

I have suggested that a 2x optic would be better, with a 1.6x optic being even closer to the perfect match, if not prohibitively expensive, as premium brand 1.6x versions appear to be.

The 2.5x projection eyepiece is held in place within the Bresser 5942000 adapter, with two bands of 5mm thick, self adhesive Neoprene tape.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Thanks for the update. This thread is IMO very relevant and important for the folks who consider starting microscopy with brand new inexpensive mocroscopes. Perhaps the Bresser objectives are supposed to properly image without eyepiece. It would also be very nice to see images taken on your new setup. Nothing like hands-on experience with the combination of camera and microscope from different sources.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:44 pm 
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That's great service from Bresser good to hear that they are considering including some kit for DSLR cameras. Looking forward to some images from your new setup.

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:30 pm 
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When I find a subject worth imaging, I'll post some pictures.

My newly dug, and filled wildlife pond, is currently too clean and fresh with tap water, to support microscopic wildlife.

Once it has gassed off all the Chlorine etc, it shoud provide a convenient source of subject matter.

I have introduced some water loving vegetation, which should encourage some critters.

It is hoped that it will serve a dual purpose in providing subject matter for both microscopy, and my macro photography.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Great outcome, Dave ... Thanks for sharing news of your success

And it looks like you have nudged Bresser in a good direction ... Can't really ask for more than that.

MichaelG.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Congrats! There are few things as satisfying as looking at the live view (or whatever) of a camera and finally seeing a bright, focused image that looks like what you're seeing in the eyepieces.


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm 
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MichaelG. wrote:
Great outcome, Dave ... Thanks for sharing news of your success.



With over 7000 views, it seems that the subject matter, and the informative replies, has been of interest to a great many people here.

From my point of view, I am now where I want to be with this, and can start to explore the world of microscopy, combined with my love of photography. If I find that microscopy is something that I want to pursue, then I would look to upgrading the microscope, initially by changing the achromatic objectives, to Plan objectives, as I find that mechanically, the microscope is quite well built, and specified.

I guess the moral of the story is that not all Chinese made budget to mid-price microscopes are necessarily of poor quality, and can be a good starting point for someone starting out in microscopy, with them likely to encourage, as opposed to discourage.

If I had taken on-board many of the comments that I have seen posted on various forums, regarding the poor quality of Chinese microscopes, many likely based on 'hear say' rather than personal experience, I probably wouldn't have bothered giving microscopy a try.

I wasn't prepared to chance buying second-hand from the likes of e-bay etc, where I couldn't "try before buying", so it had to be new, and at price point that didn't involve a significant outlay, in case I found that microscopy turned out to be just a passing interest.

It is unfortunate that forums like this are populated mainly by enthusiasts with premium brand microscopes, albeit bought secondhand, by knowledgeable people. There are very few examples, or discussion, of what can be done with budget to mid price Chinese microscopes. As such, apart from Micscape (UK), I see little to encourage the 'newbie' on microscopy forums.

I have to wonder if this is why microscopy doesn't enjoy the anywhere the popularity, and following as does astronomy, and photography.

With astronomy, and photography, there are numerous monthly magazines, while as far as I'm aware, there are none for microscopy. I guess publishers can see no point in producing a magazine for what is such a minority interest.

I know that there are some organisations trying to reach out to young people, but in the 'bigger picture' they are a bit of a 'lone voice'.

As I see it, the hobby is populated mainly by middle aged, and older people. BTW, I fit into the latter category. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Dave S wrote:
MichaelG. wrote:
Great outcome, Dave ... Thanks for sharing news of your success.



With over 7000 views, it seems that the subject matter, and the informative replies, has been of interest to a great many people here.

From my point of view, I am now where I want to be with this, and can start to explore the world of microscopy, combined with my love of photography. If I find that microscopy is something that I want to pursue, then I would look to upgrading the microscope, initially by changing the achromatic objectives, to Plan objectives, as I find that mechanically, the microscope is quite well built, and specified.

I guess the moral of the story is that not all Chinese made budget to mid-price microscopes are necessarily of poor quality, and can be a good starting point for someone starting out in microscopy, with them likely to encourage, as opposed to discourage.
If I had taken on-board many of the comments that I have seen posted on various forums, regarding the poor quality of Chinese microscopes, many likely based on 'hear say' rather than personal experience, I probably wouldn't have bothered giving microscopy a try.

I wasn't prepared to chance buying second-hand from the likes of e-bay etc, where I couldn't "try before buying", so it had to be new, and at price point that didn't involve a significant outlay, in case I found that microscopy turned out to be just a passing interest.

It is unfortunate that forums like this are populated mainly by enthusiasts with premium brand microscopes, albeit bought secondhand, by knowledgeable people. There are very few examples, or discussion, of what can be done with budget to mid price Chinese microscopes. As such, apart from Micscape (UK), I see little to encourage the 'newbie' on microscopy forums.

I have to wonder if this is why microscopy doesn't enjoy the anywhere the popularity, and following as does astronomy, and photography.

With astronomy, and photography, there are numerous monthly magazines, while as far as I'm aware, there are none for microscopy. I guess publishers can see no point in producing a magazine for what is such a minority interest.

I know that there are some organisations trying to reach out to young people, but in the 'bigger picture' they are a bit of a 'lone voice'.

As I see it, the hobby is populated mainly by middle aged, and older people. BTW, I fit into the latter category. ;)
Really, a comprehensive and deep summary. To which I can only say:

A couple of weeks ago I tested with my own eyes, not heresay, an unbranded 4X0.1 160/0.17 Plan objective under various conditions. I am far from perfectionist, yet the performance was such that I am glad I only paid 20$ for it. No way will I recommend it to any amateur that starts microscopy - unless it is proven to be good on a microscope from the same source.

So, I would genuinely like to see more images taken with brand-new budget microscopes, that typically cost 20-50% more than my own "prestigious" 60-70 years old scope, and see which can be recommended for kids. Because I suspect, that within a couple of decades, all prestigious scopes of the past will deteriorate and become trash.

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Last edited by Hobbyst46 on Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Wise words, Dave ... Well said.

There is much joy, and some pain, in tinkering with old microscopes; but ultimately we need to encourage participation in microscopy: The availabilty of useable off-the-shelf microscopes at affordable prices is to be warmly welcomed.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I have added emphasis to the word 'useable' so as to endorse Hobbyst's recent comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Yes me too (the older version).
I was introduced to microscopy by my wife's interest in fungi, attending many week long residential courses over the years here in Germany on the subject.
https://www.lwl-naturkundemuseum-muenster.de/de/heiliges-meer/
Of necessity that involved looking through microscopes at structures and spores that we had collected in the area, hence the interest in having our own, but with the caveat that we were not going to spend the amount's of money that buying a 'Leica' which we had used on the courses, Olympus or other 'high end high priced' microscope's would have entailed.
So began our year long search for an 'affordable', (to our budget), microscope.
It had to be 'new', both for the guarantee and our inability to repair a second hand scope.
We also wanted to try before we bought it, to compare the equipment against the Lecia that we were familiar with, hence Bresser and their 'open day' here in Germany.
So to all you budding 'microscopists' who may happen upon this website, don't give up or be put off, there are lots of us out there who are using 'brand new' microscopes well under 1,000 euros, pounds, dollars, who are very happy with their purchases

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Location: UK (England)
Buying a Chinese microscope can be a bit of a 'lucky dip' Michael, and I read a lot of "end user" reviews, some of which appeared to have been written by people with some idea of what to look for, and based on these, I ruled out several re-branded options, and narrowed it down to a very small number which I thought worth considering.

The two primary reasons why I opted to go with Bresser's offerings, were 1. that Broadhurst Clarkson & Fuller (aka Telescope House) had partnered with Bresser (Germany) to sell microscopes. BC&F date back I believe to the 1700's, when they started making quality telescopes for astronomers. As a one time keen astro-imager I had many dealings with them, when buying astronomy related equipment. They were the main dealer for Meade Schmidt Cassegrain telescopes, of which I had three examples, 8", 10", and 12".These were then made in Irvine California, but now I believe, in China!! :lol:


2. Having met, via this forum, with Alan (roldorf), and discussing his purchase of a Bresser microscope, albeit one with Plan objectives. Alan had visited Bresser, and was able to try their microscopes before buying, and is quite happy with his purchase.

Good customer support is a rare entity these days, and Bresser's customer support for me, has been exemplary.

Initially, I asked a technical question of BC&F about the microscope that I eventually purchased, and they had to get the answer from Bresser in Germany, so all further discussion was directly with Bresser in Germany, which proved very productive.

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:58 pm
Posts: 267
Location: Northern Germany
Wow Dave just think how many views you would have gotten if the title had been 'Which Microscope?'

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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