Microscope Cameras?

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Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#31 Post by Roldorf » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Oh My Oh My I will have to get a bigger computer screen.
Alan
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Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#32 Post by Dave S » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:39 pm

Roldorf wrote:Oh My Oh My I will have to get a bigger computer screen.
:lol: .

No problem this end, I have a 27" (69cm) monitor that I use for my photo editing. ;)

The 4000D has just arrived, and it looks like my 5D4 has given birth to a baby camera :lol: . I didn't realise how small it would be. Just the job for the microscope though, small and lightweight. :)

The Bresser T2 to 23mm tube arrived with it, but the T2 mount is delayed until Wednesday.
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Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#33 Post by Roldorf » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:42 pm

My T2 mount is currently in a van on the road somewhere North of München heading North. I also have a TV with 3 HDMI inputs but will have to get a mini HDMI adapter to fit the camera.
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#34 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:31 am

The T2 adapter arrived a day early, so now I am all setup and ready to go. Just have to see how the focusing works out, and whether or not a focal reducer will be needed.
setup.gif
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Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#35 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:44 am

Looks good Dave let us know how you get on, and don't forget to post some pics of the results.
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#36 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:50 pm

Tried it out for real, and I found that to get anywhere near focus, it does not need the extension tubes. I removed the tubes, and slid the 23mm nose piece into the fixed aperture on the trioc, and found it very close, but not exactly, parfocal with the 10x objective, and 10x eyepieces. Unfortunately, this leaves no adjustment, as there would be with the extension tubes. The 23mm tube on the T2 adapter is too small in diameter, to fit firmly in place, albeit this could easily be overcome with a sleeve. There is a fixed lens at the base of the trioc port, and I guess is a corrector lens for Bresser's own cameras. Whether a 0.5x focal reducer at the T2 end would help, I don't know, or whether the port can be adapted to bring the camera a bit closer in, and allow some focus adjustment, is something I will have to look into. I used to have a small hobby lathe for making adapters for my telescopes, but I sold it when I gave up astro-imaging.
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#37 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:17 pm

Dave S wrote:Tried it out for real, and I found that to get anywhere near focus, it does not need the extension tubes. I removed the tubes, and slid the 23mm nose piece into the fixed aperture on the trioc, and found it very close, but not exactly, parfocal with the 10x objective, and 10x eyepieces. Unfortunately, this leaves no adjustment, as there would be with the extension tubes. The 23mm tube on the T2 adapter is too small in diameter, to fit firmly in place, albeit this could easily be overcome with a sleeve. There is a fixed lens at the base of the trioc port, and I guess is a corrector lens for Bresser's own cameras. Whether a 0.5x focal reducer at the T2 end would help, I don't know, or whether the port can be adapted to bring the camera a bit closer in, and allow some focus adjustment, is something I will have to look into. I used to have a small hobby lathe for making adapters for my telescopes, but I sold it when I gave up astro-imaging.
1. Are the optics 160mm or infinity corrected ? if the latter, perhaps the fixed lens you see is a tube lens?
160mm or infinity is shown as a mark on the objectives.
2. When you place an ordinary eyepiece in the photo tube of the head, is perfect parfocality between the photo tube and the bino tube achieved ?
Last edited by Hobbyst46 on Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#38 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:21 pm

There is no infinity marking on the objectives, so I assume that they are not infinity corrected.

I have e-mailed Bresser support in Germany, as follows:


"Hi, I have just purchased a Bresser Researcher Trino microscope (5723100). As a photographer with DSLR cameras, I wish to use these with the microscope. I also purchased the Bresser T2 to 23mm tube adapter. The camera I wish to use is APSC format. The only way can achieve anywhere focus with the 10x objective, is to remove the two part extension tubes for the triocular port, and place the camera directly against the remaining fixed section on the trioc port. However to achieve focus, the camera needs to move closer, which of course is not possible. I note that there is fixed lens inside the trioc port, and I assume that this is a focal reducer/ corrector lens for use with Bresser cameras. Can this lens be removed, and if so would it allow focus with a DSLR. With that lens removed would it be beneficial to insert something like a 0.5x focal reducer, at the T2 adapter point. Your help/advice, would be much appreciated."
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#39 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:41 pm

"2. When you place an ordinary eyepiece in the photo tube of the head, is perfect parfocality between the photo tube and the bino tube achieved ?"

Yes, it is.
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jfiresto
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#40 Post by jfiresto » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:01 pm

Dave S wrote:"2. When you place an ordinary eyepiece in the photo tube of the head, is perfect parfocality between the photo tube and the bino tube achieved ?"

Yes, it is.
Rats. You most likely need to stick a relay lens into the tube to pull out the intermediate image and re-project it onto the distant camera sensor.

I thought of beheading a Wild photo tube that also has an internal intermediate image: to bring the sensor of a micro four thirds camera down to it. I think there will just be enough tube left to place the camera mount. Alas, I expect that ruse will not work with a DSLR because the sensor is too far away. You will probably want to insert a lens, anyway, to magnify the image to fill an APS-C sensor.

ADDENDUM: Your 4000D, with its EF/EF-S lens mount, has a flange focal distance of 44mm vs. 19.25 mm for the mirrorless, micro four thirds.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#41 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:31 pm

Since a major feature of this Bresser photo tube is to maintain parfocality between the camera and eyepieces, they will most probably provide the best solution for the DSLR.
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#42 Post by jfiresto » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:56 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:Since a major feature of this Bresser photo tube is to maintain parfocality between the camera and eyepieces, they will most probably provide the best solution for the DSLR.
I would hope so, too, but then I read the instructions for their adapter that Roldorf linked to earlier:
It’s not possible with every camera to get the same focus in the camera and the eyepiece. Then it’s necessary to adjust the focus from the microscope. Please note that the field of view from the camera isn’t the same field the eyepieces have.
The German text just says that with some cameras you may have to refocus a bit [after the eyepieces are in focus].
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#43 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:Since a major feature of this Bresser photo tube is to maintain parfocality between the camera and eyepieces, they will most probably provide the best solution for the DSLR.

It would be nice if they can provide a solution, especially having bought the 4000d specifically to use with the is microscope.

Maybe jfireisto's suggestion of a intermediate relay lens might be the answer.

Its a pity that the camera needs to move nearer to the objective, as is if it needed to be further away, it would make life
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#44 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:05 pm

jfiresto wrote:
Hobbyst46 wrote:Since a major feature of this Bresser photo tube is to maintain parfocality between the camera and eyepieces, they will most probably provide the best solution for the DSLR.
I would hope so, too, but then I read the instructions for their adapter that Roldorf linked to earlier:
It’s not possible with every camera to get the same focus in the camera and the eyepiece. Then it’s necessary to adjust the focus from the microscope. Please note that the field of view from the camera isn’t the same field the eyepieces have.
The German text just says that with some cameras you may have to refocus a bit [after the eyepieces are in focus].
The problem is, not one of having to refocus, but being able to get anywhere near it with the camera correctly mounted on the adjustable extension tubes.
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#45 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:09 pm

It will be interesting to see how Alan (roldorf) gets on, as he is going to find the same problem.
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#46 Post by jfiresto » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:12 pm

The Bressler DSLR adapter includes a 10X projection lens (i.e., a relay lens) to go into tube. The adapter, however, provides a total magnification of either 2.5X or 4X – likely for a full-frame camera. I am guessing he and you would want something like a 1.2X magnification for an APS-C camera.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#47 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:18 pm

Hi Dave The adapter in your photographs looks different to the one shown on the German Bresser website.
Link: https://www.bresser.de/en/Microscopes-M ... 5x-4x.html
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#48 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:39 pm

This is the Bresser adapter that I bought. It screws onto the T2 mount, and has no lenses in it::
adapter.gif
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#49 Post by jfiresto » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:00 pm

That is a surprising choice. At best, I expect the camera will not be parfocal if the tube you stick the adapter in is designed for a regular 30 mm eyepiece.
Last edited by jfiresto on Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#50 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:19 pm

I have that one too that I bought at the time I got the scope but it's a bit tight in the trinocular tube and doesn't go fully into the tube .
I also got one with the USB camera that I bought from them that has some adjustment to it along with adapters for different size tubes, none of which have lenses in them.
Looking at the position of the Canon CCD and the one on the USB camera they both seem to be roughly the same distance from the mount so I am hoping that I should have no problems with attaining focus, will have to wait and see.
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#51 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:26 pm

jfiresto wrote:That is a surprising choice. At best, I expect the camera will not be parfocal if the tube you stick the adapter in a tube designed for a regular 30 mm eyepiece.
The tube into which the adapter goes is 23.3mm, and is a nice friction fit. At the point where the bottom end of the height adjustable tube screws into the fixed port on the photo tube, it is 25mm.
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#52 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:30 pm

Roldorf wrote:I have that one too that I bought at the time I got the scope but it's a bit tight in the trinocular tube and doesn't go fully into the tube .
I also got one with the USB camera that I bought from them that has some adjustment to it along with adapters for different size tubes, none of which have lenses in them.
Looking at the position of the Canon CCD and the one on the USB camera they both seem to be roughly the same distance from the mount so I am hoping that I should have no problems with attaining focus, will have to wait and see.
I will be surprised if you don't find the same problem Alan. I await to hear with interest :)
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#53 Post by jfiresto » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:33 pm

Dave S wrote:
jfiresto wrote:That is a surprising choice. At best, I expect the camera will not be parfocal if the tube you stick the adapter in a tube designed for a regular 30 mm eyepiece.
The tube into which the adapter goes is 23.3mm, and is a nice friction fit. At the point where the bottom end of the height adjustable tube screws into the fixed port on the photo tube, it is 25mm.
I must have found its larger sibling. I am not sure what Bresser is doing.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#54 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:40 pm

The top of the trinocular port on mine unscrews you may be able to do the same and 'hack a bit off' so that the camera goes further down.
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Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#55 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:45 pm

Mine is different to yours Alan, and if it does unscrew, it is very tight, as I can't move it by hand. Let's see what Bresser come back with.
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#56 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:45 pm

Pic of cmount adaptor attached to USB cam.
USB CAM.JPG
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There seems to be a grub screw on your mounting perhaps that is what is holding it tight.
Alan
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Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#57 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi jfiresto.

I think the larger adapter is for the eyepiece.
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#58 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 pm

Undo mount.jpg
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Pic showing mount removed from cam.
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#59 Post by Dave S » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 pm

I am trying to apply some logic to this problem, and here is my thinking:

If I focus on a specimen using the 10x objective, and the 10x oculars via the binocular head, then remove one of the oculars, and place it in the photo port, via the supplied adjustable extension tube, I can achieve perfect parfocal focus. This says to me, that the corrective lens in the photo port, is designed to achieve this. There is a difference in the physical distance from the eyepiece and the objective, when attached the the binocular head, compared to the straight down view via the photo port. Therefore, am I correct in thinking that the fixed lens in the photo port optically extends the distance from the camera port, to match the physical distance of the binocular mounted oculars to the objective. Hence the two being parfocal. That said, does this imply that a x10 relay lens inline from the sensor in the camera, would produce the same effect?
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#60 Post by Roldorf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:38 pm

Sorry I can't answer that as my oculars are 30mm and don't fit the Trinocular tube.
Alan
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