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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Scarodactyl wrote:
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Dave S wrote:
Are the 2X and the 10X supposed to do exactly the same function, and one of them does it better than the other, and both results are still acceptable ? that would be an unrealistic lattitude IMHO. Ignoring aberration correction altogether, a proper relay lens for good-coverage projection into the APSC sensor is 1.67X or 2.5X (focal setup). Perhaps the combination of 10X and a reducer lens that is now included in the head of the finite optics Bresser microscope yields about 2-3X total.

Presumably that's a 10x normal eyepiece in an afocal setup vs a 2x projective with no intervening optics, right? Or am I misreading that?
I've never tried the afocal setup. It seems very promising in some cases.
I do not think that Bresser suggests afocal in this case. I take back the hypothesis about series combination of the lenses, and now think that the "trick" of shifting the position of the 10X eyepiece (as depicted in the photos and instructions shown by DaveS above, and accomplished with the sticky tape) works similarly to the known trick of direct projection: a regular 10X eyepiece is being used, but is raised by means of a "collar" so its top end rests a few mm above the rim of the photo tube. I have done so in the past. Because of the small change of the optical tube length, or some other reason, only the center of the FOV was free from pincushion distortion and chromatic aberration. On the other hand, this trick eliminates the need for a special 2X relay lens. The same trick should work for both the finite tube and (perhaps better) infinity corrected microscopes.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:36 pm 
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Tried to contact Bresser this morning spent 2 hrs on the phone listening to a female voice saying you are next on the list please wait then after 15 mins cutting me off a telling me to try later. It's now 3.20pm and still 1st in the list.

So I set two with the bits and pieces that I had.
An extra adapter that fit in the photo port 23.2mm from my USB micro-cam.
Bressers camera adapter the short one no lenses that was too tight to fit into the photo port, but was supposed to.
A 10x measuring eyepiece 30mm which of course did not fit the photo tube.

After hand holding all these bits together with my three hands I was able to determine that with some adjustment I could get parfocality with the eyepiece's

1. Using a file I took a small amount off the thread on the top of 23.2mm adapter. Then forced it into the end of the 30mm eyepiece.
2. Using a piece of emery cloth I took a small amount off nose of the 'C' mount camera adapter so that I could force it into the front end of the 10mm eyepiece 'Good Fit', then bound it with the now infamous black electricians tape.
3. Will post some pics with it mounted and some comparison pics from the camera and through the eyepiece of the graduation slide.


Attachments:
Bodgup Lens.jpg
Bodgup Lens.jpg [ 80.14 KiB | Viewed 2376 times ]

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Picture showing the camera mounted on the bodged tube mount.
Attachment:
Mounted Camera.jpg
Mounted Camera.jpg [ 105.58 KiB | Viewed 2361 times ]

First picks taken by looking through eyepiece's to focus.
Attachment:
4x.JPG
4x.JPG [ 92.41 KiB | Viewed 2361 times ]

4x
Attachment:
10x.JPG
10x.JPG [ 52.28 KiB | Viewed 2361 times ]

10x
Attachment:
40x.JPG
40x.JPG [ 94.07 KiB | Viewed 2361 times ]

40x
Camera height still needs a bit of tweaking so that it is perfect parfocal but there is still plenty of adjustment left on the mount.

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


Last edited by Roldorf on Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:21 pm 
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All the images are reduced from 4.78 Mbyte to just over 100k and I need to alter contrast on manual mode.

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Hmm!!, a lot a faffing about Alan, but it seems that you are on the right track, so some reward for you efforts.

I would try e-emailing Freundiche Grose, in customer support at Bresser. He responds quite promptly, and that way you bypass the switchboard.

I'm awaiting the new adapter, and 10x eyepiece I ordered from Bresser UK (aka Broadhurst, Clarkson, Fuller, of Telescope House).

As it is, I busied myself laying small paving blocks around my recently dug out wildlife pond, and cementing the joints.

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:25 pm 
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@Roldorf
These results are better than what I had with direct projection. A significant portion of the center of the FOV is good.
Mine showed, in addition to the CA, a pincushion distortion, probably because I used a low eyepoint eyepiece, not a WF high eyepoint eyepiece like yours. I gave it up and switched to afocal setup.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:04 pm 
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I will have another play about with it tomorrow (mostly with the camera). I did manage to take some video to see how that worked and it seemed fine compared to the abysmal results from the Bresser USB camera. I am very pleased with the result as it is very sturdy and of course I have saved 74 € and used an eyepiece that was doing nothing in my parts box.
By the way Dave I did send them an email after the first hour of not being able to get through on the phone but as yet I have had no reply to my questions.

Maybe I will spend it on a 60x plan infinity lens 249,00 € :lol:

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Location: Northern Germany
@Hobbyst46
Thanks for the compliment and support. I will look at some permanent mounts I got with a Nurogo piece of kit (they are not very good, both the device and the slides) and try to see if I can get a decent photo to upload. I seem to be spending more time on trying to get things to work rather than what I bought the microscope for. :? Or maybe I can peel an onion.

By the way how do you post video on the forum?

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:28 am 
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Hi Dave,
Just to be aware if you need to email Bresser in Germany Freundliche Grüße means friendly greetings in German and I have to say I addressed my email to 'HIM' and sent it before I realized how you had translated the term. :oops:

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:40 am 
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Had an email from Bresser this morning at 10.20am, they were on holiday yesterday hence the lack of reply I had yesterday on the phone and by email, so hats off to Bresser for the quick response, I take it all back (Grumble Grumble). They suggested the same solution as they sent you, so I sent them a photo of the setup I had made (which is parfocal with the eyepieces).
If I could get rid of the micrometer scale in the eyepiece (as it casts a shadow at lower resolutions), that would be a permanent solution for me.

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Roldorf wrote:
Hi Dave,
Just to be aware if you need to email Bresser in Germany Freundliche Grüße means friendly greetings in German and I have to say I addressed my email to 'HIM' and sent it before I realized how you had translated the term. :oops:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah well, I learn something new every day, and I thought I could manage basic German

This is how the e-mails were signed:

Freundliche Grüße · Kind regards 
Ihr Bresser Service-Team

It might have been a good idea to leave the first two words off the e-mail ;)

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


Last edited by Dave S on Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Pointless or what??

I ordered an ocular, and an adapter from Bresser (UK), as on their website, it said :"in stock".

Today I got the shipment tracking details, which tells me its being shipped from Bresser (Germany), via UPS.

There seems little point ordering from Bresser (UK), as it seems that they are just a 'go between', with stock being sent out from Bresser in Germany.

I future, I'll deal direct with Bresser in Germany.

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Location: Northern Germany
Yes much better and they speak English too.
Just had a reply from them about the micrometer scale in the eyepiece and it can be removed but that the glass it is etched on is very thin and delicate so I have to be careful. Will try on Sunday when I can take my time with it. (My wife is out for the day) ;)

Bresser replied:-
"Dear Mr. Watson,
thank you for your response.
It's looking spectacular, but take care of the camera.
The glass plate with the scale is fixed by a ring. See attached image. It's the same with your eyepiece.
If you unscrew this ring, the plate comes out. But take care: the plate is very sensitive, because of dirt. You will directly see it in the image.
The ring normally isn't glued, but sometimes very tightened. Please take care if you want to undo it.
We have a metal compass for it.
the 4x objectives are always a bit difficult, because often of their big field.
The 60x objective is very nice. We often use a 20x objective, especially for small animals in water.

Freundliche Grüße • Kind regards
Ihr Bresser Service-Team"

Wow that guy again he's a very busy chap.
So I think they get my order for the 60x Plan Infinity Objective next week. :D

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:04 pm 
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1st class customer service Alan. :)

I told him that in my last e-mail.

I will probably swap the 100x (oil) for a 60x, as I think it would be a better option.

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Location: Northern Germany
HI Dave
If you want to power your camera from the mains there are some options.
Big problem is the battery door must be closed to power the camera on. Unfortunately the is no exit for the cable and as there is a micro-switch which needs to be pressed by closing the battery door it needs a fix either with a hole in the door or something to press the switch.
You can the use a mains battery adapter such as this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coupler-ACK-E1 ... 168&sr=8-6


Attachments:
Battery Door Switch.jpg
Battery Door Switch.jpg [ 76.76 KiB | Viewed 2229 times ]

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Hmm!, that's an interesting option Alan, albeit it appears to powered from a computer usb port, and not the AC mains?

Probably something to do once the camera's warranty has expired, as drilling a hole would almost certainly invalidate the warranty.

However, if the battery lasts as long as the battery in my 5d4, it might not be necessary. I can go out for a whole days 'shoot' on a single fully charged battery. I just came back from a week cruising the Norwegian Fjords, taking a great many images, and although I took both a spare battery, and the charger, I never needed to use them.

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:44 pm 
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Hi Dave I have spent hours searching the web and all Canon cameras that I have found need to be powered from either the battery or a DC coupler. None of them power through the USB port as the voltage is around 7.4v and a USB only delivers 5v. In the case of the Canon, using live view requires 7.5v @ 3amps.

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Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Roldorf wrote:
Hi Dave I have spent hours searching the web and all Canon cameras that I have found need to be powered from either the battery or a DC coupler. None of them power through the USB port as the voltage is around 7.4v and a USB only delivers 5v. In the case of the Canon, using live view requires 7.5v @ 3amps.

Presumably the device in question contains a 'boost converter' to increase the voltage
[readily available circuitry] http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu32.php

But ... that 3amp current requirement for 'live view' seems unreasonably high for USB connections to provide !!

MichaelG.
.

Edit: Mr Straszak's review states:
Quote:
The adaptor is great. You can plug it in like any old EN-EL14(a) battery and it'll use a USB input. There are two USB connectors, each one can handle 2-4A, so you can stack them on two 2A inputs if necessary, though I find that one has worked fine.

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Last edited by MichaelG. on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Roldorf wrote:
... None of [the Canon cameras] power through the USB port as the voltage is around 7.4v and a USB only delivers 5v. In the case of the Canon, using live view requires 7.5v @ 3amps.
Three amperes for live view? That is more than six times what people measure for any of my mirrorless cameras!

Today I happen to be designing in a mains supply for a camera. I think I will flash out and buy a desktop, medical grade 7.5V supply as they are not expensive in the grand scheme of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Please just note that the ordinary PC USB can output 200mA, not amps AFAIK.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Sorry can't find the youtube video where the guy had problems not being able to use live view with a 1 amp external power supply and it needed 3 amps.

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:39 pm 
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PC USB ports can supply up to 500ma and I have USB standby batteries that have 2 ports one for 1 amp and one for 2 amps.
was looking at this one.
https://www.amazon.de/ACKE10-1200D-Netz ... to&sr=1-35

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


Last edited by Roldorf on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm 
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I do not know the DSLRs, the mirrorless are power-hungry and the Canon battery lasts barely a few hours on my setup.
So I bought an inexpensive "Canon clone" Chinese AC-adapter, including a dummy battery, and it runs the camera continuously, no problems at all, for 2 years or more.
I am also sure that the original Canon battery chamber lid was arranged for such possibility, since Canon sells AC adapters. Did not have to drill holes or anything. This is on an EOS-M10. Hard to believe that the Canon 1300/4000 is different in this respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Hi Hobbyst46
Canon does't sell a mains adapter for the 4000d. I have searched the net and the Canon website and such a thing doesn't exist.
Some people have bought the "subtel® Netzteil kompatibel forCanon EOS 1100D 1200D 1300D EOS 1D X Mark II EOS 2000D EOS Kiss X50 X70 X80 EOS Rebel T3 T5 T6 T7 CA-PS700, DR-E10 Netzadapter ACK-E10" and have reported that it doesn't work, mainly because you have to close the battery door to press the micro switch.
Whereas I guy said this:- "Habe auch erstmal probleme gehabt warum nicht funktioniert, abeeeer ein kleiner trick, erstmal einstecken wie normale akku dann müsst ihr akku deckel zumachen.
Ich weiss ist schwer weil kabel stört steht im weg, aber für ein photobox-photobooth kann man deckel bissl schneiden und zu machen voila es funktioniert."
He had a problem at first that it didn't work because he couldn't close the battery door but then he cut a little from the door to close it then it worked.
All the cameras quoted that it works with have a port in the battery door that will take the cable and allow you to close the door.

Anyway I think making a plate out of plastic to depress the micro-switch is my favored solution, rather than drilling a hole in the battery cover, at least until my 2 year warranty is over.

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:13 pm 
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Roldorf wrote:
PC USB ports can supply up to 500ma and I have USB standby batteries that have 2 ports one for 1 amp and one for 2 amps.

... and the upgraded USB port on modern Macs will comfortably supply 1A

But, it's worth noting that if the Canon really needs 3A at 7.5V then the 5V requirement will be 4.5A
[plus any extra required to cover efficiency losses] ...

MichaelG.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Roldorf wrote:
... Anyway I think making a plate out of plastic to depress the micro-switch is my favored solution, rather than drilling a hole in the battery cover, at least until my 2 year warranty is over.
Or could you get a second battery cover door as a service part, and chop up that?

Customer service at Saturn were able to order a Panasonic service part when I gave them the part number. Perhaps they can order Canon parts as well?

If not, Rüdiger Maerz in Hamburg does Canon's repairs in Germany. They were very friendly and helpful when I visited them in March. Now, however, they are probably quite busy because their main customers, professional photographers, are busy using (and abusing) their gear – and needing it fixed as soon as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:38 pm 
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I have sourced original canon parts from Foto Erhardt, there is a shop in our town. 55 euro for the mains power supply and an extra 19 euro for the E10 coupler. I think I will try the low cost version from amazon for 19 euro.

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Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Ok, here's the next installment ;)

The extended tube adapter arrived, along with the 23.3mm 10x eyepiece, from Bresser in Germany.

Fitted the 10x ocular inside the adapter, as suggested by Bresser, and it worked, in that I can now achieve parfocality with with the eyepieces in the binocular head, albeit not perfect.

The 'live view' and captured images, while not far out, are not 'pin sharp', as seen though an eyepiece, whether this be via the bino head, or the photo port.

The magnification factor presented to the sensor, via the 10x ocular placed in-line with the photo-tube, as suggested by Bresser, is excessive. To such a degree that in my non-expert opinion, it exceeds the native resolution of the 4x objective. Hence the image is not as sharp as that seen directly through the oculars.

The true in-line mag factor should be 1.6x, which would align with Canon's 1.6x crop factor for their APS-C sensor.

So, although Bresser's suggested 10x in-line ocular, and the method of mounting works as they describe, it just too much additional magnification to be effective.

I guess the search now starts for something like 2x 23mm ocular. or maybe even a 5x might be a good compromise.

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Bresser Researcher Trino, and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:41 pm 
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Have a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7642
Apochronaut shows off a dazzling array of photos taken with different eyepieces. It may take some experimentation to find one that works well on your setup, matching both magnification and corrections reasonably well.


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 Post subject: Re: Microscope Cameras?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:20 pm 
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Dave S wrote:
So, although Bresser's suggested 10x in-line ocular, and the method of mounting works as they describe, it just too much additional magnification to be effective.
I guess the search now starts for something like 2x 23mm ocular. or maybe even a 5x might be a good compromise.
Your Bresser objectives fit 160mm tube length. Hence, there is a chance that they are corrected to minimize aberrations only with corresponding eyepieces. The 10X Bresser eyepiece that you have experimented with is probably compatible with the objectives. I do not see a 2X relay lens in the Bresser catalogue, although they may have it. Non-brand 2X relay eyepieces are either compatible or not, yet they are fairly cheap.

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