Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

Here you can discuss everything related to taking light micrographs and videos.
Message
Author
microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#1 Post by microb » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:45 pm

HI,

I thought there would be a corrective lens in this camera shutter tube. But nope. There is not. So how does one get a valid camera set-up with a Balplan. The trinolculars I'm told do not have a lens in the vertical port -- or do they? Because the corrective lens I thought in the binocular and trinocular was in the prism/eye-piece box.

Any info appreciated.

Thanks,
Ted
Attachments
IMG_4303_cropped_1K.jpg
IMG_4303_cropped_1K.jpg (81.25 KiB) Viewed 10606 times
IMG_4305_1K.JPG
IMG_4305_1K.JPG (90.35 KiB) Viewed 10606 times

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#2 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:13 am

There is a lens. I do have an old polaroid system somewhere. I think it is in an intermediate tube attached to the camera back. I will have to find it.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#3 Post by microb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:55 am

So the lens is in the connector shown here to the camera wrapping around the tube pictured above.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BAUSCH-LOMB-BA ... 2619!US!-1

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#4 Post by microb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:56 am

So if took apart a cheap Blaplan head and removed the corrective lens, could I create an equivalent Olympus U-TLU like part but for a Balplan?

I'm asking because ever assumption I make based on other microscopes seems to go out the window with this things lens set up.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#5 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:58 am

Your example above looks like an older version of the camera adapter. There is supposed to be à lens in the top of that tube. Is there any evidence of it having been removed? In literature, they do make reference to " the camera lens". The knob with markings from 0 to 25, on other models starts at 3X and goes to 15X. The knob moves the lens carrier up and down. Yours looks potentially useful for smaller format digital cameras, since it goes to 0. Why it goes there , is a mystery to me.

Whether the photo tube lens is an exact replica of the telan lens in the head is a mystery to me as well. In the patents , they make some reference to the eyepieces performing final corrections but that was written in a patent application from 1964 so actually from way before that in practice. Evidence , based on the function of the instrument would lead me to believe that there is little extra correction in the eyepieces, however if there is any at all, then there would need be those corrections incorporated into the camera lens, so it would be a different lens than the telan lens. It's possible that the original design, which is close to the Flat Field Dynoptic had corrective eyepieces and as time went on they shifted to more neutral ones. This would have entailed some corrective differences between the telan lens in the Dynoptic head and that in the Balplan head, with the net corrections coming out the exit pupil the same.

You might have to incorporate both a telan lens and an eyepiece in the camera adapter. This in practice what I do with the AO systems. The telan lens is fixed under the trinocular tube in that case but the optical principal is very similar.

It is easy to make assumptions about the Dynoptic and Balplan based on experience with other microscopes and any of us that have done that end up frustrated. That's why I started the Breaking The B & L thread. Once I realized that they had extended the objectives above the nosepiece, that the external lens wasn't a compensating or corrective lens but was an integral component of objectives with a roughly 60mm parfocality, things added up.
In some ways, not running a fully rectified image into the photo tube is stylistically consistent for the design team. It's as though lingering correction requirements became a Balplan signature. Maybe the chief engineer was a frustrated mystery writer. It should have been designed by Watson not B & L. Nevertheless, it works and works well.

A note for Bram. I don't know if you have any interest for high mag DF but in case or for anyone else interested, they did not make an iris equipped 100X Flat Field achromat. Instead, they made a replaceable rear diaphragm, which closes the N.A. down to about .8 or .85. Some dealers will have those. Part # 31-51-71. They did make an iris equipped 100X planachromat.


There was also a later and probably final version of the camera adapter, with electronic controls rather than cable controls.. The body is oblong rather than round and you have to look at it a bit to see that it is a camera adapter. It is called the AX-1 Automatic Exposure Controller Camera Kit. It came as well in several incarnations depending on the camera back used.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#6 Post by microb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:05 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:58 am
Your example above looks like an older version of the camera adapter. There is supposed to be à lens in the top of that tube. Is there any evidence of it having been removed? In literature, they do make reference to " the camera lens". The knob with markings from 0 to 25, on other models starts at 3X and goes to 15X. The knob moves the lens carrier up and down. Yours looks potentially useful for smaller format digital cameras, since it goes to 0. Why it goes there , is a mystery to me.
I should clarify, I just bought a tube with the knob. The ebay listing which is still active shows a camera and camera attachment that I do not have.

I'm assuming here that the tube that I have with the shutter control and knob does not have a lens and that the camera attachment shown in the listing does.

User avatar
wporter
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:18 pm
Location: United States

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#7 Post by wporter » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:57 pm

Here is the usual "focusing tube with shutter", 42-12-15, from the Balplan price list.

Your shutter assembly has broken free of its mounting place; it is normally glued in via springy mounting pads to isolate the shutter action from affecting the exposure somewhat.

The bottom inner tube, seen on the dial part of the assembly (the part with the lens on mine), and in the center of the left part, in the middle image, is just a bit larger than an eyepiece O.D.; you might try dropping an eyepiece in there and see how it works out as a projective lens.
IMG_20200707_083750-1024x1024.jpg
IMG_20200707_083750-1024x1024.jpg (136.71 KiB) Viewed 10549 times
IMG_20200707_083712-1024x1024.jpg
IMG_20200707_083712-1024x1024.jpg (197.35 KiB) Viewed 10549 times
IMG_20200707_083623-1024x1024.jpg
IMG_20200707_083623-1024x1024.jpg (171.75 KiB) Viewed 10549 times

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#8 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 pm

The Balplan eyepieces are maybe not quite neutral. Comparing the AO/ Reichert 181 eyepieces used on the series 400, to the 31-15-61 eyepieces catalogued for the Balplan, shows some curvature of field with the 181s but the edge correction otherwise is pretty good. It actually looks like a good plan field , if comparisons to some other systems are thought of. I may be wrong but are the 181s not neutral.....corrections done in the objective mostly and tweaked in the telan lens? That would hold for the Univar/Polyvar eyepieces too.

The Balplan eyepieces tweak the image just slightly. It is very flat with almost crisp, well defined borders. Scrolling a smear , just so slightly backcurves towards the perimeter.

The camera lens in the Balplan camera system, mImics the combination of the telan lens and eyepieces.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#9 Post by microb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:39 pm

wporter wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:57 pm
The bottom inner tube, seen on the dial part of the assembly (the part with the lens on mine), and in the center of the left part, in the middle image, is just a bit larger than an eyepiece O.D.; you might try dropping an eyepiece in there and see how it works out as a projective lens.
So my tube does not have the lens on the top like yours. The part on top does remove, and if I put it back, it does hold an eyepiece 23mm with no rattling.

It looks like mine is meant for an eyepiece, but is missing the telan lens I guess at the bottom. But you seem to be indicating that the bottom part the connects to the trinocular does not have a lens. What is the slot for? It looks like a DIN slot.
Attachments
IMG_4311_1K.JPG
IMG_4311_1K.JPG (64.34 KiB) Viewed 10535 times
IMG_4310_1K.JPG
IMG_4310_1K.JPG (67.26 KiB) Viewed 10535 times
IMG_4309_1K.JPG
IMG_4309_1K.JPG (71.03 KiB) Viewed 10535 times
IMG_4308_camera_port_1K.jpg
IMG_4308_camera_port_1K.jpg (53.78 KiB) Viewed 10535 times
Last edited by microb on Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#10 Post by microb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:44 pm

Actually, is there a lens on the bottom?

If there isn't then I'm really confused how an eyepiece would be a possible replacement for a telan lens. But then again, this is a Balplan which is just confusion cast in machined aluminum.
Attachments
possiblebottomlens.jpg
possiblebottomlens.jpg (170.21 KiB) Viewed 10533 times
Last edited by microb on Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#11 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:47 pm

I don't think it was meant for an eyepiece. B & L did make a tube like AO to take a photo eyepiece but that isn't what yoy have. The numbers on the side are magnifications to adjust sn integrated lens up or down to accomodate the frame size. Eyepieces are not meant to replace the telan lens but I think that the telan lens in that photo system incorporates some of the corrections thst the eyepiece carries, possibly.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#12 Post by microb » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:19 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:47 pm
I don't think it was meant for an eyepiece. B & L did make a tube like AO to take a photo eyepiece but that isn't what yoy have. The numbers on the side are magnifications to adjust sn integrated lens up or down to accomodate the frame size. Eyepieces are not meant to replace the telan lens but I think that the telan lens in that photo system incorporates some of the corrections thst the eyepiece carries, possibly.
SUMARRY
So you have a lens at the top of yours and a trinocular base connect (no optics) on the bottom. Mine is missing both. But mine has a tube with no optics sitting in the top that narrows the diameter down to 23mm, which just happens to match the 23mm diameter of one of my Balplan's binocular's eyepieces.

But what is that metal tube that narrows it to 23mm? Is that Balplan or did someone try something a decade or two ago, and I'm just looking at a weird custom part put there to confuse the issue?

SEARCHING FOR SOLUTION
So I could take apart a bad binocular Balplan head, put its telan lens in the bottom of my camera tube w/ shutter, add an adapter between camera tube and trinocular (that probably also holds the telan lens), and then put an eye piece on the top, then finally add a DLSR adapter/tube -- which at that point I might as well just make a new tube that I can hook an F-mount to that also holds the telan and eyepiece. The camera tube isn't adding much to this.
Attachments
cameraport.jpg
cameraport.jpg (99.15 KiB) Viewed 10527 times

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#13 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:18 am

Give the eyepiece a try. The telan lens in the system converts the infinity corrected bundle to convergent , then the eyepiece picks it up.

Scarodactyl
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#14 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:04 am

Mine has a lens there but it unscrews and has thr same outer case as your eyepiece adapter.

User avatar
wporter
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:18 pm
Location: United States

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#15 Post by wporter » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:38 am

Actually, is there a lens on the bottom?
No, no lens. It is just an adapter piece, apparently to another (aluminum) adapter that joins it all to the trino head. Then there is yet another adapter that would connect your camera to the top of the focus tube.

You will probably never see any of these adapters on ebay, since many B&L parts like that are not marked.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#16 Post by microb » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:28 pm

wporter wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:38 am
Actually, is there a lens on the bottom?
No, no lens. It is just an adapter piece, apparently to another (aluminum) adapter that joins it all to the trino head. Then there is yet another adapter that would connect your camera to the top of the focus tube.

You will probably never see any of these adapters on ebay, since many B&L parts like that are not marked.
So I'm getting a trinocular head. If anyone has dimensions for proper heights and tube diameters, any measurements to make some parts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ted

BramHuntingNematodes
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:29 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#17 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:50 pm

Thanks Apo, it would be nice to not have to make anymore funnel stops.


Side question: how do the 31-15-61s compare to the wf-22s? I have the plain 10x WF silver tube and the wf-23s which seem to have a slightly smaller image, a yellow fringe around the edge but some additional sharpness around the perimeter. There isn't really a clear cut winner among those two, but I have heard the wf-22s and 31-15-61s are superior.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#18 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:23 pm

Those eyepieces marked W.F. 22 are not 22mm f.o.v. It must be a reference to the eye relief. Same with ones marked 23, which have about a 20mm f.o.v.

The W.F. 22 are listed as compensating eyepieces and probably entered the world as a wider field alternative compens eyepiece to be used with the last generation of 160mm apochromats. They were also catalogued for use with the low power Flat Field achromats. I have only tried them with the 4X through 40X planachromats and they gave a lot of peripheral ca. Definitely not designed for those and I can't imagine them benefitting the flat field types either.

The 31-15-61s are definitely the pick of the litter for the planachromats. I do have some flat field objectives too. I will give them a try on those. It's possible there is a little tweak that gives the W.F. 23 the edge with those and the 61s with the planachros. Perfection in eyepiece correction can be very subtle. Once the perfect match is seen , it is hard to not notice even a small distortion or aberration.

Scarodactyl
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#19 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:02 pm

Here's a rare thing. Looks like one of their slr adapters with the rarely-seen 5x thing (though I'd much rather have a 3x). Wonder if there's a lens in there or if it's just a spacer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363048253679
Nkt sure if this was for the balplan, sz7, both or neither.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#20 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:42 pm

That is the required adapter for the 5X 35mm back with the bayonet coupler. For some reason it was added to give what they call the 5X camera. For the 3X camera, the adapter was not used. I have not figured out why the two, when the camera back is the same.
Possibly just so a higher magnification could be put on the frame? Kind of like having a pre-crop, so it didn't have to be done in the enlarger and therefore amounted to having intermediate objective magnifications.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#21 Post by microb » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:13 am

So this is the telan lens in a Balplan head. It's pretty thin if a doublet, and a grid gets little distortion. Objective side at first seemed to be planar, but may have a slight curve.

So the idea would be to put it at the bottom of the camera tube lens with a new eye piece I got for it, and then mount on a trinocular that just came in.
Attachments
IMG_4427_1K.JPG
IMG_4427_1K.JPG (93.71 KiB) Viewed 10409 times
IMG_4434_1K.JPG
IMG_4434_1K.JPG (125.9 KiB) Viewed 10409 times
IMG_4437_1K.JPG
IMG_4437_1K.JPG (115.18 KiB) Viewed 10409 times
IMG_4438_1K.JPG
IMG_4438_1K.JPG (81.1 KiB) Viewed 10409 times
IMG_4439_1K.JPG
IMG_4439_1K.JPG (71.44 KiB) Viewed 10409 times

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#22 Post by microb » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:55 am

FL ~140mm

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#23 Post by apochronaut » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:56 am

140mm from the eyepieces? What is it's f.l. from the rear element of the objective? The the back of the common lens in the nosepiece.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#24 Post by microb » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:24 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:56 am
140mm from the eyepieces? What is it's f.l. from the rear element of the objective? The the back of the common lens in the nosepiece.
I'm just quickly and inaccurately measured about 140mm using a laser aimed from the objective side of the telan lens to a focal point. Measuring it I saw 140mm distance. The objective side I thought was planar, but I think there is a very slight curve. Also it's pretty thin for an achromat, but I guess it must be a doublet.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#25 Post by apochronaut » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:53 pm

Since that is a Jentsch type head, one of the functions of that lens is to maintain focus when the interpupillary adjustment is made, so it moves.. It is also a convergent lens, converting the infinity beam into a convergent beam. That focal length you are measuring, if you deduct the thickness of the lens itself, would be what in an infinity corrected system is called the reference length. Let's say it is roughly then, 135mm. The thinness of that lens is likely due to the fact that it's only job is to focus the beam. Any imperfections it adds to the image can be compensated for in the negative common lens that precedes it, which is a much more complex optic.
Just a point. 135mm or so is a very short reference length. Even the Zeiss reference length at 165mm or something along those lines is short. There are reasons why longer lengths of 180 up to 200 work better. Have you roughly measured up through the prisms to the top of the ocular tube to see if the distance roughly matches?

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#26 Post by microb » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:08 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:53 pm
Since that is a Jentsch type head, one of the functions of that lens is to maintain focus when the interpupillary adjustment is made, so it moves.. It is also a convergent lens, converting the infinity beam into a convergent beam. That focal length you are measuring, if you deduct the thickness of the lens itself, would be what in an infinity corrected system is called the reference length. Let's say it is roughly then, 135mm. The thinness of that lens is likely due to the fact that it's only job is to focus the beam. Any imperfections it adds to the image can be compensated for in the negative common lens that precedes it, which is a much more complex optic.
Just a point. 135mm or so is a very short reference length. Even the Zeiss reference length at 165mm or something along those lines is short. There are reasons why longer lengths of 180 up to 200 work better. Have you roughly measured up through the prisms to the top of the ocular tube to see if the distance roughly matches?
I have not done the prism path measurement yet. It was 130 to 155 if I guess at it without taking it apart more and I'm trying to go by where the screw that holds the lens is. But before I took the lens off, I kept moving the eyepiece holders laterally and thought I should see movement, but didn't. Maybe it was just too fine a movement to see. But the square rod looked like it should move.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#27 Post by microb » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:12 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:53 pm
Since that is a Jentsch type head, one of the functions of that lens is to maintain focus when the interpupillary adjustment is made, so it moves.. It is also a convergent lens, converting the infinity beam into a convergent beam. That focal length you are measuring, if you deduct the thickness of the lens itself, would be what in an infinity corrected system is called the reference length. Let's say it is roughly then, 135mm. The thinness of that lens is likely due to the fact that it's only job is to focus the beam. Any imperfections it adds to the image can be compensated for in the negative common lens that precedes it, which is a much more complex optic.
Just a point. 135mm or so is a very short reference length. Even the Zeiss reference length at 165mm or something along those lines is short. There are reasons why longer lengths of 180 up to 200 work better. Have you roughly measured up through the prisms to the top of the ocular tube to see if the distance roughly matches?
Do you think I could just use an achromatic doublet as a telan lens and make a legit set-up? If there is no correction and I use an eyepiece with it, it seems a surplus shed doublet would work. I don't want to cannibalize a binocular, so it would be nice to put it back after testing. I guess I'll try both ways and see what quality I get. Then I can get back to seeing if phase contrast can work with an alternative condenser.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#28 Post by apochronaut » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:29 pm

I think that lens is a singlet, so it will have some aberrations. Whatever effect it's presence has on the final image corrections has been anticipated and an equal and opposite effect has been designed into the common lens below or even into the semi-onjectives themselves: whereever the possibility presented itself in the overall scheme. In order to install a lens that would duplicate it's function in your photo tube, it would need to be have exactly the same n , thickness and curvatures and be situated exactly the same distance from the compensating lens as the version in the head is.

I'm thinking that pilfering one from a head with a clouded beamsplitting prism might be the easy route.

microb
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#29 Post by microb » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:21 am

The camera adapter on this looks mighty familiar. Would it have the same lenses in it?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bausch-Lomb-St ... 3455357468

Also as a side question, what does the camera port see? Does it get the left image or what would be cooler, a left right side-by-side. Does any stereo ever built do a dual eye image? That would be cool for 3D processing over a motored stage.
Attachments
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg (78.47 KiB) Viewed 10268 times

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Bausch & Lomb Balplan Camera Tube

#30 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:54 am

The SZ7 can use the same 15X eyepieces as the Balplan but not the 10X. This may seem counterintuitive but often such mismatches turn out to be due to the stereoscopic angle, not any skewing of the corrections.
Scarodactyl knows more about the SZ7 than I do. Perhaps he will chime in on that.

Post Reply